Lunch Pail Podcast #1: What's the Difference Between a Trim Carpenter and a Fine Woodworker?

comments (17) February 16th, 2010 in Blogs

Matt Berger, executive producer

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Video Length: 32:35
Produced by: Matt Berger

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When it comes to building and installing built-in furniture and cabinetry, what are the different approaches taken by a trim carpenter versus a fine woodworker? In this video conversation from the Fine Homebuilding/Fine Woodworking shop we attempt to answer that question in the first in our series of recorded discussions with editors and contributors from Fine Homebuilding

Introducting the Lunch Pail Podcast
Here's how it works. I treat the staff to a free lunch and in exchange they let me record their conversations that span the gamut of the building world, from new tools and materials to crazy projects and current events. When lunch is over, I produce the recording into a digestible variety show similar to our audio coverage from the International Builders' Show.

Join The Live Online Video Debate
To launch the Lunch Pail Podcast in a big way, we hosted a live video event on Wednesday, Feb. 17 at 12:30 p.m. ET. Special guests Gary Striegler of Fine Homebuilding fame and Tony O'Malley of Fine Woodworking fame joined us for the discussion from the set of our Buildoff (read about that here) on the topic: What's the difference between a trim carpenter and a fine woodworker. As you might imagine, it was a lively and informative discussion.

We'd love for you to continue the conversation by posting a comment or question below. Do finish carpenters approach task differently than woodworkers? And if so, what can we learn from each other?

posted in: Blogs, woodworking, trim-carpentry

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Comments (17)

MFournier writes: "wfred writes: How do you approach full height built-ins? If you build it in the shop, you can't stand it up in the space. If it is site built, you can build it to fit."

You make all the parts in the shop but assemble it onsite. Or pre-assemble parts of it. Also most full height units can be split somewhere even just a removable toe kick is enough to allow some to be moved in place sometimes you need to completely assemble onsite. But you can still build a lot of it in the shop.

A unit may be full height but with a heavy crown at the top that is installed onsite
Posted: 9:59 pm on February 24th

MrTusat writes: I have to agree with PutnamEco that this wasn't a podcast...but interesting however. I could only watched about 5 minutes on my computer then skipped around...would have liked to take with me to watch on my iPhone during lunch. Maybe the audio would be better with headphones.

But a good try and A for effort. Looking forward to the next lunch pail podcast.

Posted: 9:37 pm on February 22nd

Blake1 writes: I found this informative but the sound level was so low I had difficulty cranking the volume up enough to be able to understand it.
Posted: 2:52 pm on February 22nd

PutnamEco writes: Silly editors, that's not a podcast.A podcast is something you can watch/listen to on an Ipod, can't do that with this now can we?

Defined, from Wikipedia:

A podcast is a series of digital media files (either audio or video) that are released episodically and downloaded through web syndication.
The mode of delivery differentiates podcasting from other means of accessing media files over the Internet, such as direct download, or streamed webcasting. A list of all the audio or video files currently associated with a given series is maintained centrally on the distributor's server as a web feed, and the listener or viewer employs special client application software known as a podcatcher that can access this web feed, check it for updates, and download any new files in the series. This process can be automated so that new files are downloaded automatically. Files are stored locally on the user's computer or other device ready for offline use, giving simple and convenient access to episodic content.[1][2] Commonly used audio file formats are Ogg Vorbis and MP3.
Researchers at the Center for Journalism and Communication Research at the University of Texas at Austin in the USA are proposing a four-part definition of a podcast: A podcast is a digital audio or video file that is episodic; downloadable; programme-driven, mainly with a host and/or theme; and convenient, usually via an automated feed with computer software.
Posted: 10:19 pm on February 18th

ManKnit writes: The replay video is now live. It took longer than expected to get the video digitized. Sorry for the delay!
Posted: 8:18 pm on February 17th

JBAces writes: when will the video be posted?
Posted: 7:01 pm on February 17th

cussnu2 writes: A TRIM carpenter is one who doesn't weigh very much but a FINE woodworker is one that looks like me.
Posted: 5:11 pm on February 17th

epirnik writes: HI kg4vqi,

When we upload the archived video as a podcast, we'll be including some still shots as visual aids. Thanks for dropping in!

Cheers,

-Ed

Posted: 3:20 pm on February 17th

kg4vqi writes: I could only watch part of todays program, but I have to say i would have prefered it if all of you had used visual aids during the talk. Such as what was that saw you were talking about near the beginning, what does it look like and how does it work?

Howevere, the camera work and sound have much improved. Please keep up the good work.

Posted: 2:01 pm on February 17th

pklynch writes: I have actually taken a class from Gary and from Frank Klaus @ Marc Adams School for Woodworking. Both were outstanding. This is a school that prides itself on producing fine woodworkers. Marc Adams cannot say enough praises for Gary's work. That is good enough for me. Gary helped us build curved molding, and fireplace mantel as well as passed along his vast knowledge of the business. It was awesome!

For those who do not know Frank is the epitome of a classical woodworker. Learned in Europe under his father in the traditional apprentice/journeymen style. His work is unsurpassed in its fine quality.

So that being said I guess I agree finish carpenter and traditional woodworkers are fine craftsman. Just different styles. Everyone should appreciate both.
Posted: 2:00 pm on February 17th

williamH writes: question for Tony. what is your preferred technique for cutting mortise and tenon joints?
Posted: 12:56 pm on February 17th

wfred writes: How did you get started? How did you generate business and get started building your business?
Posted: 12:50 pm on February 17th

wfred writes: How do you approach full height built-ins? If you build it in the shop, you can't stand it up in the space. If it is site built, you can build it to fit.
Posted: 12:46 pm on February 17th

Kit_Camp writes: Hey, I want pizza!

Posted: 12:24 pm on February 17th

MFournier writes: Ops I ment to say

As a business owner that has had to try and find workers with these skills I can tell you most finish carpenters even experienced ones DO NOT have the skill to do that type of work. And many workers in cabinet shops do not ether.

What I meant is due to using modern tools and methods have eliminated some of the skills needed the a lot of the accuracy is built into the tools. Much more then when you do it all by hand.
Posted: 2:10 pm on February 15th

MFournier writes: As someone who is both , Owner of FournierWoodwork, I can tell you the two can be very different. Fine woodworkers or furniture builders often scoff at the techniques a finish carpenter might use to build a book case. And a finish carpenter would scuff at the time taken to use a traditional mortise and tenon joint on a face frame when the budget doe not allow for that time and it is over kill when a pocket screw of even just nailing to the case work would work.

I have built 18th century reproductions using all hand tools and I have built cabinets on site simply face nailing the face frames on and everything in-between.
I have built boxed stairs in a shop that install as a complete flight of stairs and I have built stairs on site piece by piece.

A really GOOD finish carpenter should have the skills of a wood worker and a cabinet maker working in a shop if what they are building is going to be built in at the job site needs some understanding of the Trim carpenters trade. They need to build in some method to compensate for on site adjustments. (not all woodworking requires this most furniture is not built in.)

Now you have many so called finish carpenters that have been doing it for years that are still limited on their understanding of how wood moves. And there are wood workers that do not have a clue when it comes to hanging trim or installing a door or windows in a imperfect structure.

Also there is one more related trade that involves wood working and that is the Shipwright. (wooded boat building) Now most boats and ships today are not made of wood but their interiors often are. And guess what you can forget about level and plum. You are fitting to curved hulls and bulkheads, you are working in a boat that may not be sitting level yet you need to keep things aligned. And yes somethings must be square but you then need to make them fit in locations that are not.

Don't ask a normal trim carpenter used to building houses to install doors or cabinets on a yacht. I once hired a guy to build stairs that once worked building boats the best finish carpenter I ever had yet it took him some time to get used to the speed needed to make a profit on the job sight and when good is good enough.

Also someone used to building furniture may have a hard time understanding that houses move differently then Wood. Wood movement is a concern to woodworkers but on a much smaller level. The wood worker is used to wood to wood joinery the finish carpenter must join wood to other materials not just wood to wood.

So a finish carpenter can be a woodworker as well and a woodworker can be a finish carpenter but when you specialize on one vs the other you learn a different skill set depending on the type of work you do.

Now in comparison at one time a carpenter was a carpenter the skill required to hew a timber frame from a pile of logs and assemble those joints with nothing but wood to wood joinery. Or to make millwork and cabinetry all by hand that was skill. My house was built in 1740 and you just do not find wood work like in my house in many homes today and when you do it was most likely produced in a custom mill shop and just installed by the finish carpenters. Not many finish carpenters today could build a wall of raised paneling all with full tenons and hand coped joints all held together with pegs no glue no power tools and the only nails are the ones that hold it to the framing.
I can say that I can do just that I have done reproduction and restoration work were all new work was done just as the original work so when we were done you could not tell the old work from the new. That work is truly wood working and not just carpentry.
And as a business owner that has had to try and find workers with these skills I can tell you most finish carpenters even experienced ones have the skill to do that type of work. And many workers in cabinet shops do not ether.
Posted: 12:25 pm on February 15th

TheHousewright writes: After 30 years in the industry I feel both qualified and compelled to chime in on this one. The answer is not easy, depending on the individual they can be the same thing, the skills are similar.

I have found that the perspective of someone who works primarily on a house site or primarily in a shop is quite different.

In a shop environment you have control over all the facets of the project, in a sense it easier. You typically joint and plane all your stock, everything is trued and prepped, joinery is used more. Everything is perfectly square and true. You assemble components that are often sized for transport.

On a job site there are always different variables. The materials are usually different, long boards, big doors, lumber milled off site, different tools mostly hand held, different assembly sequences....it is a different approach. Things are built in and nailed up. And their is always something that needs to be contended with; i.e. not level, plumb or square.

Today, many crews employ both techniques when they can. For example, our crew does things in the shop when it can, we find it is faster and more accurate. However, often it is impractical to do things off site.

It is hugely beneficial if trim carpenters on a house have other building experience. They must be familiar with house construction, if not they will make silly mistakes and overlook subtle irregularities in the construciton. Fact is, no matter how well built, houses are not perfect. Trim carpenters know how to adjust their work to create the illusion they are. I find cabinet guys often struggle with this key aspect.
Posted: 6:30 am on February 12th

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