amazingrace

The learning should never stop. When you think you know it all, watch out, because, soon you are going to get your butt handed to you. I think in order to consider yourself a professional (in any trade) you should always be a student . Always willing to listen and learn from others. And to sharpen the skills that you already have. Many times I have seen people left out because they were not willing to change, overcome or adapted to certain situations in there lives.
I have worked in homes from the late 1800's early 1900's. I am still amazed at the skill level of the carpenters back then. No power tools, all hand made. With tight miters, tight seams you can't even see. Meanwhile carpenters today are using a thousand dollar miter saw with air nailers and still cannot make a simple 90 degree miter. Makes you wonder!!

Sounds great. Now if I can only get the roofers to use the step flashing in the first place. To many times I have seen the roofers install the 30 lb. felt (ok) and then install the ice shield on the roof and then up the side wall (great). And then nothing, the siding goes on next. What? I say, no step flashing.? The roofer will say. No, that's what the ice shield is for.
I don't know but am I missing something? I don't get it.
With all this bs about contractors being licensed, there should be some basic testing in their field of trade. At least they should have a basic knowledge and understand of the job that they will be performing.

Please.............really............... illegal. Give me a break, don't give big bro any more ideas. Sometimes when you say things it comes true. So you better watch out for what you say. I am not going to repeat what Amish and Mark said. Which by the way is dead on. But, I thought this was Fine Homebuilding. You know, to build things nice, how to repair things to work better. I didn't think it was about how to impose more restrictions in our lives.
You want to make suggestions on how to make that crawl space work better, be my guest. But, stop with the suggestions of more laws and regulations. If it wasn't your intentions it sure came out that way. Maybe we are a little more sensitive with more laws coming out of the EPA.

I am all for working clean and cautious. I have always vacuumed during and after the project is completed. I didn't need for it to become a law. To be punished with a fine and potentially put out of business for not filling out a form or leaving a paint chip under a radiator or something. It is very frustrating to work and to keep compliant. I am trying to understand the whole punishment side of the regulation. I understand that with breaking of a law that there is punishment. But, where does the money go ? Most contractors that I know of are small 1-10 man operations. A $37,000. fine will put them out of business. So whats the point ? Does that money go back into the community, does it create jobs for the local people ? How does fining a company help?
There was a county near by that was fined 1.2 mil by the epa for a sewage problem a few years back. Today that same county is nearly bankrupt, the problem still persist and the epa has 1.2 mil. This has to stop. This doesn't make any sense. It is doing more harm then good. It may look good on paper, and the "intentions" are meaningful and understood. But, the repercussions are just now coming in view. And it does not look good for the local contractors or home owners.

The post work dust wipe test will not" prevent" a client from suing a contractor. Nothing will "prevent" a lawsuit from being filed. I don't understand how this brings peace of mind to a contractor. The contractor will still be dragged into court, guilty before proven innocent. He/she will still need to be represented to prove that all and I do mean all of the requirements was followed. It is still left to the judge or jury to decide the outcome.
This is just another hoop for the contractor to jump though. Another item that can be analyzed by the suits to find a mistake. If anything, this gives a false sense of security ,but in the end, it's the contractor who is held responsible. I hope that this doesn't go into affect. But, like I mentioned before, I am out of the pre 78's. And for those of you that choose to be in, God bless you, and prosper.

Open your eyes and wake up already. Government has stepped in or should I say stepped on (us) for a loooooong time now.. It's the Gov.. lousy foreign policies over the past 30 yrs and its anti free trade practices including policies that aloud our manufacturing and industry to shift over seas. Crappy monitory policies which brought us to the point where we are today. I see that the Gov.. is setting all of us up to fail. Weather by design or by pure incompetence it is here.
I can see that within 10 to 20 years, if nothing changes, the american dream that everyone loves to talk about will be just that.............a dream. It will be unattainable for the majority of the population to afford to buy, maintain and live in todays homes, without a major compromise In size and restrictions. Thanks to our wonderful caring politician who are slowly and surly taking what made this country great and gutting it. JMO

Here's my 2 cents. Yes, thing certainly change, nothing last forever. When I built my house in the mid 90's., I was younger, with less aches and pains, and had more money in my pocket. Work was abundant, so why not build and I guess I built big according to this article. Things where cheaper back then, now close to 20 years later the property tax more then doubled, heat oil has quadrupled and I am less motivated to take care of this house. I am not earning nearly has much as I did in the 90's. And everything in life has become extremely more expensive.
Why did I just say all those things? Because going green or becoming one with the earth has nothing to do with the following statement.
I would love to move into a small lot with a 1300sq ft house with the most energy efficient everything. Perhaps all solar power, maybe off the grid if possible. Just so I can turn around and give the finger to all the utility company's. And maybe write a check for property taxes without a comma.
Perhaps the young ones reading these comments will make better choices for their future.

After a year plus of these regulations in place. I tried, I am certified and my firm is certified. I tried but, I am now close to deciding that I will not do work on pre 78's. It has nothing to do with money and yes, it cost a lot for the supplies and for the time to preform the task needed to comply. It has nothing to do with the paper work. I have done four small to mid size projects. I kept all the paper work up to date and coupled with the regulations. Of a matter of fact, the paperwork was the easy part.
It has everything to do with this cloud of uncertainness floating over my head every second of every minute of every hour that I am doing the work.
Did I cover the outlet?
Did I tape the plastic enough?
Did I put enough plastic down, what if a big gust of wind comes?
Will The epa come by and find something wrong?
Will my client get sick, even if I do everything right?
Will I get sued three years from now?
These questions and a thousand more are streaming though my head while I am working. To the point that I am more concerned about the lead then the quality of my work. The epa has the contractor on the hook and being liable for 60 years plus, of neglect by the very agency responsible for this mess in the first place.
I am just saying, Yes work smart and clean. Be aware that lead is no good for anyone. But WHY HOLD THE CONTRACTOR responsible. I guess I just don't have the stomach for this type of stress. I can run 3 crews, several jobs at once, millions of dollars in renovation jobs (not lately) thats no problem. But, being fined because no one noticed the warning signs blew away. Or being sued that the three old of your client just got sick because I was the last contractor to work on their home. I am sorry, I think I am out. I guess this is what the epa wants. Make it so threatening to contractors to work on pre 78's. That no one will want to touch one. So all the lead stays where it is and the industry falls apart. Did any of you pencil pushers figure out that maybe part of the reason why the construction industry is failing is because of these regulations.

Hey 316, the plans call out for a block foundation 42" below grade. So, between excavation, footings, block, backfill, and slab. That was 8 days. I framed with roof, siding and windows in another 3 days. So, by the third week everyone was happy until the owner pulls his car in. You know, if it wasn't for the fact that it was my job, it was almost laughable. But it wasn't. The architect doesn't have anything to say, the owner is pissed, and I'm left with a 3K outstanding balance.

On a personal note: But staying with the ethical issue. I was handed a set of plans to build a 10X16 one car garage. Plans were drawn by an architect, approved by the town, permit issued and contract signed. So, I constructed the garage as per plan and contract. Turns out that the clients car doesn't fit. Who's to blame, and who should have "within reason" done what.

I'm not cheering for big brother. But, if you want to take a position of a maverick contractor, fighting every inch of the process, be my guest. I would rather apply my time and energy trying to make a profit. No permit, you are screwed no matter what is said. You can't defend your self for being ignorant of the fact you needed a permit, any argument is mute.
Had a similar "condo" project happen in my area, it was more contributed to criminal behavior and back room deals then any permit issue.
The insurance company doesn't care now, but I suspect that if a fire occurs in an illegal basement, see if they "care" then.
I am only saying what my experience has shown me. This is no bs, between the towns, banks and insurance co. it is a lose lose position for anyone to be in.

Another thing, for those of you that have the thought "It's my house". Think of this, true story.
The owner self builds a deck on the rear of "his" house, no permit, no oversight. He has no knowledge of the basic build codes. It is 16' wide, 12' out 10' of the ground. He used 2x6 floor joist and floor boards (no hangers) the 2x2 spindle railing that a dog can fall though. It stood for about ten years. He then sells the house to a family of 5. They were in the house for about two years, having a family party on the deck, the deck collapses. The family of 5 is now 4. Do you know why............. NO LAG BOLTS though the ledger, only common nails.

I understand that this is the extreme side of it. But, what if you are the one buying that house. I have been on both sides of the issue. I get a much better night sleep knowing that I will not be getting a phone call from anybody asking why I don't have a permit for a job that I'm doing. After a while, your clients will be thankful of your knowledge and advice to them. That the extra money that they laid out, not you. Is well worth the peace of mind in the future.

Lastly, did you know, even if you do the job 110% to code with no permit. You are still held liable for anything that goes wrong or if someone gets hurt or worse, dies. If it is traced back to your work. But, if you went though the permit process, your butt is covered.

Many years ago, sure, no permit no problem. But today,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, forget about it. If the owner gets nailed for no permit years later, guess who gets a phone call from the lawyer. The owner try to sell their house, then the buyers bank does a title search. Guess what, that basement, deck, addition or newly renovated kitchen/bath doesn't show any permits pulled at the building department Guess who gets a phone call, not only from the lawyer but also the Building department and if you have a license, you are getting a call from the issuing board.

I know it is very tempting to work for someone who doesn't want to go for a permit. Especially if they are waving a 10K check in front of your face. But, not today, think about, it's your a$$ on the line if you or the owner gets nailed. Ask yourself "IS IT WORTH IT?" I work in an area that the building inspector flies around town in a helicopter looking for jobs going on without a permit. Between that, computers and every other neighbor who has an issue with you client. Believe me IT IS NOT WORTH IT".

Now, the first thing that is mentioned to a prospective client. " YOU NEED A PERMIT". Trust me around my area.(northern suburbs of New York City) as one building inspector told me.
"Falling short of power washing your house, you need a permit". Even if the owner is doing the work themselves.

Sure, it is a big money machine for the towns. And it adds , sometimes big dollars to the overall job cost. But, the bottom line, it's not your money, but it will be your problem if you work without a permit.

Not for nothing, but I thought we are supposed to be professionals here. This sounds like something that a fly by night, jack of all trades, master of none. Or an officer/firemen with a part time tool belt on. I have nothing against our fireman or police officers, but let me say this. I promise not to put out any fires or arrest the crack dealer down the street, if you promise not to do my job.
(No offense, given)

I'm just saying, if you are a professional, this is a part of it. You need not only to know the building codes, but, some of the legal BS that goes along with it.

First, I am happy to see another article address the lead issue. About a year ago there were several articles written on this subject @FHB. But since then, none, until now. Secondly, since my firm is certified , one lead carpenter and myself are certified, I find with a year of the guidelines in place, work overall, for many reasons have declined to a point that there is very little work. I completed four projects with the guidelines. I was very nervous, to the point that I was focusing more on guidelines then the actual job itself. I was looking more at taped seams and plastic covers then mitre corners and plumb doors. Ok, maybe I am exaggerating, you got idea. One question I have, am I supposed to make copies of all the paper work and give it to the client when I am finished with the project.? I can not get a straight answer from the people I ask.

Brownmaker, funny, but all to true. As a builder/framer/renovator or counselor or what ever is paying in this market. It is always a sticking issue between the framer and the designer. I think the responsibility for energy and design falls with the designer/architect. Sure there are simple changes that the framer can make. But, once I receive a set of plans it already has been though the approval process with the owner and more importantly with the Building Dept.. I am not going to create more issues and possible delays in the project arguing that the 2x6 spacing can be wider. or lets use foam board instead of plywood. No, to late, those decisions should of been made way before build day starts.
I agree, I have been on siding crews and hired many siding co. I as a builder feel more confident with a plywood or osb sheathing then foam board. At least I know with 100% confidence that the siding (whatever type) is securely nailed into a solid sheathing . Unfortunately I can not rely on the siders to find each and every stud with every nail they bang in into foam board.

This goes with what Dreamcatcher was saying.
So, a client had a sewer back up in their home. The three plumbers they called all came over on time. Two were young and seemed not know how to resolve the problem, other then suggesting to call a sewer company which will charge $500.00. The clients were getting a little nervous. The third plumber came, an older gentleman, grey hair, glasses. The client showed him the sewer line, he looked, scratched his head,hummed a little, didn't say much. After 10 minutes of the plumbers inaction, the client was ready to say "thank you" and show him the door. But then, the plumber reached for his hammer, tapped on the sewer line three times, and the clog broke free. The plumber turned to the clients and said $350.00 please.
the client said," but all you did was tap on the pipe three times, I could of done that." The plumber said, $100. was to show up, $250.00 is for knowing where to tap.
I believe that, as long as the market can bear, if we have something to offer that is in demand, then we should charge for it. And when we start charging to much, then the market will find an alternative to what we are offering. Ethics do play a role in the market, and since I work in the northern suburbs of New York City it is a close knit community, and word gets out like lightning. So, if your work ethics are in the trash, you will not be working for long.
One last thought, I am finding that today clients are by far, more "educated" in the construction field then 20 or even 10 years ago. Between the internet, home shows on every other tv channel, and 1000 how to books on the rack. Come on, give me a break, I once had a client hand me 75 pages downloaded from the website for the siding we were going to install. She said, "make sure you read this before you start, thank you". And then she walked away.
Lets try to keep the dialogue going without insults.

Larry, I started in construction in the late seventies. I was taught the "production" way of framing. I worked with and for builders and developers for some years before moving out on my own. I would say that it would be in a contractors best interest to find as many , fast, efficient, most productive way of doing a specific project. If it was for the only reason as to make money. Let's be honest with ourselves, that is the bottom line. I understand the "love of it" and the "feeling good of doing the job". But, the fact of the matter is that we all need to get paid. And if I can find a more efficient, time saving way of doing a job. Then I will adopt that way. I am a carpenter/ business owner, so I am looking for any advantage over my competitor. If I can cut man hours off a job, in-turn save some money which I can pass along to my "bid". I just may get that new job, and in-turn get paid.
I am all for one to do a quality job, no doubt. I can not afford poor quality. As for new technology, well I am a little old school on that. I prefer to take a wait and see attitude. I have been proven right on several "new" items that came out over the years, that ended in disaster for those contractors that jumped on board as soon as the product came out.
Overall, I am all for one in learning new tricks. Watching others work and picking up some alternative ways of doing tasks. As long as it does't include cheating, stealing or lying. Be honest and fair with clients, and speak up when it is needed. I agree with dreamcatcher, the overbuilding is a big expensive problem. And unfortunately, the architects/engineers just keep adding more and more unneeded bulk to the project. Which drives up my bid and the clients cost. So now, if I see something that I know is not needed, I say something. Keep up the good work.

My apprenticeship was with my Uncle during summer vacation in the late seventies and early eighties. He was old school though and though. Cursed hard, drank hard and worked even harder. After WW2 he came home and started his own Carpentry Co. At that time the suburbs of New York city was more farm land then suburbs. But, thanks to a bunch of developers,soon tract housing went up real fast. My uncle had built many of the homes. He would tell me stories during lunch time of all the going ons of this new style of building. The cool thing is that now, I am renovating these same homes that my uncle built 50 plus years ago. Add about three or four times I came across his name penciled on a 2x during renovation. My uncle has passed, but I will always look up to him but never measure up to him.

Nice article, John. Enjoyed reading it. I would think it would be very helpful for someone who is new to the whole " American Dream" concept. The idea of buying an existing home or buying land and scratch build your own. I choose to build my own. I had much of the same concerns that you had when starting out. At first I left most of the tall oaks. But, after a few years of carpenter ants and pests getting in the house, the trees came down. I wasn't a big fan of a lawn, but soon came to the conclusion that deer and bear prefer to travel along the wooded line and not venture into the open lawn. So, I pushed back the tree line further away. I tried to build with energy savings in mind. With radiant heat in cement slab though out the entire house. But, now that a gallon of oil is near $4., it still hurts to fill up.
I built in the mid 90's, time's where great, money was not an issue. One word of advice to some. If you are building, build as if this slow economy will last. Build small, efficient and manageable. Because what sucks the most is if you build now, equal to you means, then when (if) the economy gets worst you are screwed. Like me, I should have taken my own advice back then, I would be in much better shape today. One last thing, you do not own you land, you are leasing it from the state. You can not take it with you, you are restricted on the use of it, and do not stop paying taxes on it. And if the state wants it back, you really have no choice but to give it to them, Read your history.

Because the EPA-RRP rules where on the books for a few years prior to the 4/22/10 deadline. Before the deadline you where only required to give the "Renovate Right Pamphlet and get a receipt. But, after the deadline you are now required to work under the the EPA guidelines. Correct me if I am wrong.

So the Government will require a 20% min. deposit rule. But, if you get a mort. at Freddie and Frennie which is a quasi government agency. The 20% rule does not apply?????? um. OK. Well, here in the real world where I am at, the typical home cost 300-400K with a 20%dp of 80k and 12k closing cost plus moving cost, they are in it to start at almost 100k. Oh Yeh, the boom is coming. Don't hold your breath. Maybe some one forgot to pull their calculator out and add up the reasons why the real estate market is in the dumps. And it has nothing to do with interest rates. Interest rates have been low for several years now. So, if any one is waiting for rates to go lower, or if they think that after 10 years of record low rates, that maybe it is time to buy. Maybe they are better off as renters.
Most people that I have talked with, and there are a lot. They are scared out of their minds. 10 years of war, terrorism, extreme high real estate taxes, high heating and electric cost every month, our government is spend us into the abyss. My customers, the 250K plus income, this is what they are saying, not me. You would think that they would be the ones that would have no trouble affording it. But add education, food and travel expenses and they are done. I don't know, I'm just saying, something thing needs to change "big time" not just some rules. Because if this group of people are done, who's going to take their place. This is the group, that a few years ago, they would buy the house and then put another 150k of renovation into the house. Just think of how many jobs were kept. Just by one house. Now the thought is to get out, down size or even go back to renting.

I am a carpenter, been in the field since the late seventies. Started working with my uncle and then started my own contracting business. Most of my work is renovations with of course demo. I work in all ages of homes spanning from the 1900's to present day. The older homes consist of true 2x4 with 16d nails and with the steel frame, steel casing windows and doors. I have used the previous mentioned recip saws and they fail all to early. From triggers not working, blade clamp getting stuck open or close, shaft snapping. I do not expect the thing to last forever, but give me some satisfaction. For example, I mentioned the Skil worm. This saw just does not want to die. I have cut miles of roof and lumber, left it out in the rain, rolled of the roof. And it works every time I pull the trigger. I can not say that with the typical recip saw. Right now I have three Milwaukees, and from experience I know that two are about a year old and will soon be failing for one reason or another.
I am just saying, that if they are constructing a tool for a specific task, then make it so that it will work hard, stand up to the use that it is going to encounter. The previous blog mentioned that the line between homeowner grade and contractor grade is blurred. I look forward to the day when there is a distinction between the two. Would it be acceptable if the bathroom I remodeled falls apart in three years? I do not think so.
What I mean by, balls out, It simply means that if I am using a recip saw with a 10" blade, bi metal, full speed, cutting though a 1920's steel casement window. The only metal I want to see is the frame being eaten and spit out by this saw. Not smoke, sparks and gear pieces coming out of my saw. Yes, I am looking for options, maybe something I have seen on the tool rack but did not want to take a chance, I do not know, surprise me, I am all ears. Thanks for the reply!!

Since we are on the subject of tools. Let me ask, what sawsall would you recommend. Forget Delta, Milwaukee, or Porta-cable. Been there done those. I was thinking Bosch, but I had one awhile back and it self destructed in my hands. I would like 1 1/8" stroke all balls out take no prisoners saw. What is your experience, I don't need an advertisement.

When was it, that we as business owners and contractors agreed that cheap and disposable tools replace high quality and durable tools. That, it is alright to buy 5 cheap cordless drills within the same time period as one quality drill. I have used practically most tools from all the major names. I am not impressed with any of them. Except with Skilsaw worm drive. I have two of these and both are nearly 20 yrs old. One I use to cut though asphalt shingles, sheathing with nails with a dull blade and sparks shooting. It never dies. Try doing that with some pretty shinny saw today off the shelf, good luck. I am not impressed at all, They are geared to be mass produced, high profit for the manufacture, cheap enough so that when it does break down it is cheaper to buy a new one then it is to fix it. Why is it that it is cheaper to buy a new drill, charger, case and battery then it is to just buy a replacement battery. What a waste of resources. I would think that today, they can figure a way to make good quality, long durability, and at a affordable price. I do not need a saw with a flashlight, laser, tv and gps. I need a saw that will last and stands up to the use and sometimes abuse of a real life, in the field under real condition. Not some showcase TV show part time contractor. There is a sucker born every minute, and every time I purchase a new tool, I feel like I am that sucker. Because I know that within a year or so I will be tossing this tool in the trash.

I'm in The New York suburbs. I started to see a slow down in "06". With less large scale reno plans coming across my desk. It hit bottom the first 1/4 of "08", there was nothing going on except lay off's. With energy tax credits being given and clients taking advantage of hungry contractors, I am seeing an uptic in the renovation market here. At least I was able to hire back two of my oringinal men. Although, I still see and hear from local realators that there is hardly anything moving in the housing market. I still see for sale signs on homes that have been on the market for over a year. Also more forclosure signs, which was something that was never seen in this area.
With time, alot of time, it will all work out. It may not get to the levels of 5-10 years ago, but, eventually there will be some type of leveling out. The bottom underlaying issue, the issue that I hardly hear any of the talking heads comment about. It's the income of the American working class. Or I should say the lack of income. Compared with the rising cost of everything in our lives, not just a few selected catagories that our gov likes to focus on. I mean all areas, food, fuel, taxes, cars, education etc, etc. The income can hardly pay for the day to day expenses of living and rising a family. Not to mention "wants" just the "needs". If the income kept up with inflation and the increase cost of all other items that the average family has to pay for. The typical families income should be 150-200k a year. If that was the case, then you would not be seeing the problems that we have today.
Here's a thought, instead of posting 2 billion $ profit per 1/4 gains after taking 12 billion in bailout $. Maybe you should give back to the very people that made that profit possilbe. Am all for making a profit, but come on man, give us a #@!*-^" break.

That's it, seven answers. Out of all the questions and concerns within the related blogs concerning the EPA guidelines. All we get is seven answers. Shame on you FHB. If you are going to offer help, then help. One month later and still no answers, do you even review these blogs to see what concerns your subscribers have.? If you truly have your finger on the pulse of contractors you will notice that the rate is about 200bpm. Not at all happy with the response, or should I say, the lack of it.Please prove me wrong, redeem yourself.

Who needs "Great Moments" anyway. My work day is full of laughs and giggels aaaallll day. It is about time to get rid of it. To print something like that in your professional magazine is degrading, to have someone laugh out loud, sometimes to the point of tears, good ridense. I want more serious, grown up, advice and stats that bore the life out of me. Yep...... thats what I need, who needs a laugh now and then. I want serious discussions all of the time. It's like the Sunday comics, who reads those ?... What a waste. Because I would not want you to add 1 extra page to the magazine or change the format of something else, so that you might be able to keep GM and run the interviews at the same time.

This is my understanding from the instructor regarding the container disposal. It is much safer that all debri is placed in bags, vacume (hepa) out the air, then place bags gently into container, cover container with a tied down tarp. The tarp will need to be taken away with the debri. The area around the container will need to be taped off with caution tape. We read though the regs. everything revolves around containment, so having said that, a debri shoot or wheelbarrel full of debri would be a no no. The dust would be everywhere, spraying it down with water would now create another waste product full of lead (the water).

It's now May 18th, almost 1 month after deadline. Although my company has not, as of yet, set up for an actual lead job. I have several contracts verbally excepted. They are smaller in scope, but will help me refine the process. One thing that I see worth mentioning. On the projects that require a larger disturbance in the house, example would be a kitchen, bath and all the windows. In the past we would just go in and proceed with the work, and clean up at the end of the day. I think now, post deadline, it is time to request to the owner to vacate their home. I know this is not required by the EPA. But, I will not be comfortable working in a client's home for two months with them living there. There is just to many ways the dust can escape after 4:30pm.

Who decides? If you have not figured it out yet "peak". It's you. Again, the way it was taught. You need to contain the dust according the regulations. I set up a practice containment, let me be honest, it was not enough. I was not comfortable with just 6' of plastic on the floor. Dust and debri was beyond the plastic within the first 5 minutes of work. So up went the plastic curtain wall. Plastic path on the floor down the hall to the outside.

One last general comment. Take alot of photos, save them with the papers of the job. Word is getting out to the public, do not risk on getting caught trying to slip under the radar, I talk to every contractor that I come into contact with, I want all of them to know that if they are not cert. I will not be hiring them. We all need to get the word out. Maybe by doing that the client will see that this is what needs to be done. That's my HHO

Here's mine, I was hired to install and 8' wide window on the second floor. Which looked out over the roof of a kitchen addition added several years ago. When we leveled the new window it looked out of level compared to the cieling by 2". Sure enough the ceiling and floor was not level and off about three inches. I showed the client and she asked me to figure out why it was.
I went downstairs below the window which was the a 14' wide opening cut out of the previous exterior wall which gained access to the kitchen addition. I cut open the sheetrock to see what type of header they installed. I was expecting to find nothing, but surprisingly I found wood with a steel plate. The two post were 4-2x4, I went in the basement to see what the post sat on, they were sent right onto the plate. I was dumbfounded, for about an hour I kept going upstairs to the bedroom and back to the basement back and forth. I was almost ready to give up until I moved the sitting chair which was in the kitchen. It was covering the register of the A/C. Don't ask me why, but the HVAC duct install decided to cut though all of the support post of the header above to install the duct. Yes, I did replace the post, but this really makes you want to %$#&&% and _)(*^!$%

One of the projects that I enjoyed was to refurbish, instead of replacing, the old double hungs and casement windows. There are alot of homes in my area that the clients prefer to keep the oringinal windows. Since the project calls for 90% labor and 10% materail it was a win win situation. I would get my day and my client would get an operating window and screen for a faction of the cost of a new window. It was not as energy efficient, but it works. But, now with the New EPA rrp rules I do not think it is going to make "cents" to work on these old windows anymore.

Carl, whoever is disturbing the lead base paint, that's one who is responsilbe. It could verywell be everyone who is involved with the reno. Example, the old cabinets and related woodwork is lead base, so that contractor is responsilbe. Then the plumber comes in and demos some wall which might have lead, he's responsilbe. The electrician cuts in 10 recess lights in possilbe lead base paint cieling, he's responsilbe. It's endless. One contractor does not "cover" another.
This is one problem with these rules. I'm sure you have done a few kitchens. When was the last time a kitchen was demolish and back in working order within a week. Just think, you are now blocking off a hazards lead area within someone's home until your demo and subs are roughed in at a minimum. Night and day for lets say 6-7 working days with a weekend in the middle. Everyone who goes into the lead zone better be suited up. Have fun trying to swiffer mop a plywood subfloor, or vacuming a studded wall. I hope it is not ballon framed, cause the dust will be everywhere you are not. I hope I answered your question.

I have always worked clean, plenty of drop clothes, plastic, damp mopping. It makes your final clean up, much easier. You leave the home sometimes cleaner then when you first arrived.
At the very worst, your client will not be happy with the cleanup, so you will go back and clean again. Now, thanks to the beloved EPA. You can be sued, possiblity put out of buisness if your cleanup is not 110%. Because some one in the household has lead poisoning. Try to prove the lead poisoning came from your work, good luck.
I have zero problems doing the set up, the time or material used, as long as I'm compansated. I do have a major problem leaving me out to dry in the event of poisoning.

I find that six feet out into the room is not enough protection with the plastic. Between movement of bodies and tools, debri ends up on the floor past the plastic. I install a plastic curtain at the end of the plastic on the floor. Taped along all edges. Even though this is not required by the Epa, it makes clean up less intense and less time consuming.

I'm sure if you keep "wondering" what else can harm us you would be right there cheering away when more regulations come our way.
Hers's one that will soon be reality, CO2. Leave it to Al Gore, Obama and your buddies at the EPA, CO2 will be considered toxic. Soon, maybe we will need to be hooked up to an CO2 recovery mask while renovating, because our breathing might damage the enviroment. Maybe you can start it off Kevin, by holding your breath, waiting for a contractor/builder to bow down to the holy EPA with thanks giving on how well thought out this legal nightmare of a trap is set for us.
Did you put any thought into you article before you published. Think about this, why leave the door open for lawsuits. It doesn't even matter if the work was completed right or wrong. You can still be sued. If that's the case, what contractor in his right mind would take on such a project with such huge liability. Like I posted before, once that first multimillion dollar lawsuit is awarded. Contractors will avoid pre 78's like the plague. And then what good was all of this regulation in the first place if the end result is that the lead stays.

Kevin, while I agree with your conclusion on how the RRP rule will fall into levels of compliance though out the construction trades. I'm taken back by your childish and uncalled for insult to contractors. I reread your little EPA cheerleader article to make sure I was correct. Why do you need to go to the lowest level to try to prove a point. You are insulting the very people that will be in the middle of this legal mess created by your beloved EPA.
I have been speaking with many contractors in my area. I will admit we are not happy with The EPA. But, one thing is for sure we will carry out their regulations. You should know this Kevin, since you completed the course. You are now top on the sue list if anyone in the house showing up positive for lead poisoning once your project is complete until time unlimited. A very simple clause of contractor exemption should of been included, but was conveintly left out. That's the top issue with this regulation, even the lowest IQ of contractors can figure that out Kevin(your words). So instead of wavy the pom poms and blowing the EPA horn. Why don't you put your energy into the issue which will effect the contractors in the most negative way. Promote and help get an exemption clause into the regulations.

Here's a question that just came up today.
What if your employee refuses to work with these new regulations. That he will only work on post78's homes. Saying that he is not comfortable have the responsilbity of the risk of poisoning someone with lead. What should I do, in a way I agree with him. Your reponse is appreciated.

Here is my cost breakdown for a New York contractor. Installing three windows on the first floor bedroom.
$5.00 ($600.00 Cert. fee) spread out over 5 years at
at two jobs per month.
$30.00 Two men,Booties, suits, gloves, mask
$75.00 Plastic, tape, signs, cleaning supplies, bags
$ 5.00 Cost of Hepa vac. spread out over same time line
$450.00 Three hours, three men, set up, clean up, testing
$100.00 Overhead of buisness for three hours
$120.00 Profit (I hope) This should be included

So as you can see a total of $785.00 for just three windows in one room. What if you have several rooms, maybe on the second floor or third. This is for only ONE set up and break down.Now, I'm sure that over time, with pratice I can shave the time down. And if I truely want to work in pre 78,s I will be buying in bulk everything that I will need. But don't take us as fools.

Question.........Do we need to wait several years, hundreds of lawsuits, countless contractors going out of buisness and turning the home renovation trade into a hazardous materail disposal unit. Until the EPA changes their position and regulations, at least to the point to where the contractor is exempt from being sued. There are way to many variables in lead dust poisoning to only place blame on the contractor. The Certified contractor who was the last one to work in the home. I am leaning toward the choice, that the only sure way to protect my company, myself and my family from a devastating lawsuit is to avoid pre 1978 homes.
The article at the top states that a company could do better if you market to your prospective client that you work cleaner and lead free. Let me tell you, once news gets out that someone just got a multimillion dollar settelment for lead poisoning, there will be crosshairs with dollar signs on every contractors head.
The backdoor is wide open for lawsuits, the EPA needs to close the door now. Do not wait for years.

So, I called the instructor today, (I have his # on speed dail). And I asked him,"how could I find out if the home is contaminated with lead dust BEFORE I start any work".
I'm not referring to the paint test. I'm referring to just the dust on the floor or in the corner of the room, on the sill. He said the only "SURE" way to find out if the home has lead dust is to hire a certified lead inspector to test for lead. ($250.-$400.)
Doesn't that make sense, to test for contamination before any work begins. If it comes back positive, you now know that maybe you do not want to work in this house. Because no matter how clean you work, the owners have already been exposed before you started. So don't blame me.
Here's the question. Does the EPA offer an approved lead dust test kit that doesn't cost hundreds and that a certified renovator can use?
So, any word on the 75 mil? or the vouchers?

I'm working on an old home this week (before the deadline)installing double hung windows with all the trimmings. I decided to take one double- double hung which was in the living room and apply the EPA requirments to it. I am certified and I did teach my carpenter and helper the requirments. We started to set up at 8:30am by the time they started to demo it was 10:45am. The demo went basically the same, other then a dozen torn rubber gloves and a snapped zipper. One issue that came up was what to do with window sashes that were to big for a bag. The answer was more bags and plastic. The demo took about 30 min. longer then normal. When all of the window was out of the opening, we then proceeded to clean up. At first I wanted to install the new window, but I was concerned that it might get lead dust on it. So, we cleaned up all the plastic, baged it, vacumed, wipe down, so on and so on. An hour later we were ready to install the new window. We treated the new window install just like we normally would but then we had a problem. As we were install the window within the opening. leveling, plumbing, centering, nailing, and insulating there ended up to be small mess of more paint chips and plaster on the drop clothes.
I think that the new window will need to be in the room before demo, cover it and then install before clean up. My little experiment cost about 4 hours of time for 3 men for one window. Everyone cost/expenses is different, you do the math.
I hope as time goes on the routine will become second nature. But, I am still finding questionable mitre cuts from my carpenter of 15 years, go figure.
Here's a question, Why didn't the EPA put a clause into these rules saying the contractor is not at fault for lead poisoning ?. Why leave such a big door open for the contractor to be sued? He is not the one who allowed lead to be put into the paint, or used in homes. He is actully the good guy, he's removing it from the home, to protect the little one's. If it is such a big issue, Why the potential for allowing a lawsuit to happen. I suggest a clause exempting the contractor, building owner from being sued. Funding the contractor who is doing the work. And then You will see more contractors willing to work on homes pre 1978. Because at the moment, I do not see a sound reason why I should work on home's with lead, if I CAN be held responsilbe for lead poisoning of someone. Even if I can prove otherwise. It really does not make sense. If the EPA is concerned with lead. Why make it so expensive, and treatening to the contractors who will be doing the work. To the point that a high percentage of contracors will not work on homes pre 1978. The end result is Lead will remain in homes and children will still get poisoned.
When will we be getting our answers?

I have been in and around the residential construction trade for about 33 years. Working with my uncle in my teens and now for myself. I have seen alot of odd things over the years. It has mainly been the past 15 years or so that I have seen alot of issues with newer construction homes. With water, moisture and mold. I contribute the problem with an over abundance of non proven techniques. Put out by either the manufacture of products, tradesman, or editors. Seperatly and in a perfect world the technigue works. When applied to real life applications with many varibles it fails.
I not going to go into detail, but a few examples would be the decking that grows mushrooms, the stucco that rots sheathing. My favorite is the J channel that brings water behind the siding.
Today, we are building tighter and tighter homes, with different products then from years past. The internet can be a blessing but can also be a curse. I believe renovators need to understand the basics of construction before trying to specialize in one field. To many times I have seen a specialist in roofing apply an excellent roof system just to have the stucco contractor not install a drip cap on the windows.
Call it what you want, but it needs to change, there is a disconnect. Common sense went out the window, I'm beginning to think that it was never in the room in the first place. Speaking of windows. What is with windows and the four sided nailing flange. Can't these companies figure a way to make the bottom flange be out over the siding. Maybe a double flange, one for nailing and one to divert water onto the siding and not behind. I hope they are not relying on sealant alone to hold out the water. That is my point.

BASH, amen brother, very well said, lets see what the answers will be and when.
AHW, "most" of us here and the other blog will not agrue the fact about lead poisoning. I'm a carpenter by trade not an EPA scientist. I will be overstepping my qualification if I question their conclusions on lead poisoning. But, I am a buisness owner and a contractor, which does give me the qualification to comment on exactly how these rules will effect buisness. Every penny of expense that my company incurs as a result of following the EPA guidelines I will pass it on to my client, with profit. Any buisness owner who doesn't add profit will not be in buisness for long. So AHW, if you were ready to go into contract to replace, let say, 25 full replacement double hung windows with all the trimmings thoughout your entire home back in Nov. 09. For labor only cost of $7,000.00. But you waited until May 2010 to sign the contract. Guess what, that $7000.00 just became $11,000.00. Are you going to still do the work. If you answer yes, thank you. But my guess is that some of the people reading this will answer no. And that is the basis of almost all the blogs. It is the lost of buisness the increase cost of doing buisness and do not forget the huge liability of being sued. Being sued and taking the responsibility of this lead issue. The lead that for over 30 years prior to 1978 our Goverment dropped the ball and failed to act on their own studies.
Big brother gets the results they pay for. The result of these rules, are that alot of GOOD contractors will go out of buisness because of the lack of people who will say yes to the increase cost. The lawyers and insurance co. will do extremly well. But to place all the liability onto the contractors is wrong. I find it strange that you can't sue the paint co. you can't sue the gov. you can't sue anyone who was responsible for this mess in the first place. But it's OK to place the expense onto the home owner for the clean up and throw in a lawsuit for the contractor for good measure.
I almost forgot my question. Does the DEP or even the EPA understand the damage all of this one time use of the sheet plastic going to land fills has on our precious fragile envoriment.??? or does it matter. Just a thought,

Here is a Question.
Does the EPA or any big brother agency offer any vouchers or coupons for buying all the equipment and Hep. vacs. I would think someone is. But so far I have not found any.
AS far as cost, I estimated that a typical 20-30 total replacement window and trim job, spread out though the house. Incluing hallways, bedrooms, bathrooms and landings would require at least 4-8 seperate set ups and breakdowns with multible tests and cleanings. Without including the cost of the actual work that I was contracted for (windows). Just the cost of all the plastic and equipment and the labor of three men over the course of the job which I figured about to be an extra three days. The EPA requirments would cost roughly $4,500.00 . I would like to meet the EPA bean counter who figure $8.00-$137.00 per job added cost.
Give me a break.

I became a certified renovator last week and I just sent in my app. for a certified firm to the EPA. I am all for working clean and safe,and to protect the children, who isn't, I would be a fool to argue against it. From a contractor/buisness owner point of view there are two points that only briefly gets touched on. I have read most of the information in book form and the EPA web site(very helpfull.) There are temporary issues that will last a year or two after the 22nd. Like the other gut not being certified. Or, not understanding the requirements, or I'm working now on the job with lead.
But the two issues that I have a huge problem with is,
1)I do everything that I am required to do, fill out all my forms and get sign offs. Take photos of everything, every thing is right. Thank you very much. Three years later I get a phone call, my child has lead poisoning, see you in court...........I'll still need to defend myself,either though insurance or court. Who pays for that.
2)It will take a long time for this issue of lead to become a norm. Meaning, it will be a while for clients to releize that they are the one's paying for the clean up, and the higher cost is worth it. By that time, contractors like me will be done.
So in short, Can't sue the paint co. Gov. can't pay for the clean up, although there is plenty of bailout $. I got it, let's have the owner pay for it though higher contractor cost. and let's set up the requirments in a way that we can bang the contractor the moment he forgets to cross his T. Just think of all the new jobs we are creating in the law firms.

One last thing, where is the $75,000,000.00 sent to the EPA going. ($300. x 250,000 firms) Maybe it's going to help with the clean up cost................surrrrrre

The latest clarification, as long as the debri from your renovation is in a 3mil trash bag and sealed you may dispose of it either at the curb a dumbster or a dump. The guildline ends at the curb.
To answer the question regarding long lengths of painted materail. As long as you are cutting that materail within your work area your fine. A wet spray or a HEPA vac. being used as you are cutting will keep the mess to a minimun.

So, I am now certified. My view of the lead contaiment requirements by the EPA is suspicious. As mentioned on previous comments below, it is a very large money grab. Not only by the Goverment but also by all the equipment suppliers. Coveralls,gloves, masks, plastics, HEPA vacs, bags , plastics, tape, boots, and did I mention plastics. I guess being green is really not important after all.
I do admit, the requirements give great advice on how to work even cleaner on the job site. But that would be all the praise I will give.
About half way though the course the attorney instructor had his 30 minutes of say. And basically the bottom line is cover your butt. There is no one to check your process or your final clean test. Cross your "T" and dot your "i" on your form. No one will see the form except the client and yourself. And file it away for three years and pray that you do not get a phone call in the future regarding lead poisoning. This certification CAN NOT stop a client from sueing you. That is why it is vital for you to fill out the paper work correctly, take alot of photos of the procees, get the client to sign off on the paper work. If you do not, you will loose the lawsuit.
There are a lot of gray areas within these guidelines. It exposes the owner of the company to the scrunity by the EPA, DEP and OSHA. If you are not following the requirmnets of OSHA for your employees you better start. If you are not following your local trash requirments of diposal of hazardous waste materail, you better find out and start.
By the EPA own words, containment and abatement are two different subjects with their own requiremnets. But, when you, as a renovation contractor certified for "containment" starts to remove the lead painted window trim you will fall under the the EPA definition of an "abatement" contractor, which is not what you are certified to do.?????????
Lastly, regarding cost. This will add to each job. Between all the equipment and added time for testing and prep work and clean up the cost will start adding up quickly.
One last word about enforcement. You will be enforcing the EPA rules, All it will take are a few examples made of the evil dirty contractors who are poisoning our children with lead . Getting fines and lawsiuts which will scare the wits out of the rest of us, who will dare the EPA. Do not forget the EPA expects all certified firms and people to notify the epa of any work in progress not following the guidelines.
Not only are you now an unpaid agent for your Gov. But, you have just taken on the responsiblity for cleaning up the mess left by our Gov. for the past 50 years of neglect and ignorance of the lead issue. And by the way you are funding the clean up. There is a sucker born every minute.

I will be certified in a week or so. It is my understanding that some states have been under this requirement for several years now. So, I'm assuming that there are a few contractors listening in that have already been conducting buisness with these EPA requirements. If you don't mind me asking. Is it managable? Is it expensive to set up for a job that you are doing a kitchen reno, or 20 windows.? How much time is spent setting up/cleaning up? Or do you avoid homes with lead altogether? Has there been any legal issues ? I'm just asking that's all.Thanks in advance for you replies.

Well, I brought into the American dream. I'm a contractor and I used to flip homes for about 15 years before the 2007 bust. I took me sometime to relized that the deck is stacked against me. No matter what I made, the banks and fellow pimps made bookew $$$$ on every home I touched. I am out of that buisness, and I wish I was out of the house that I'm in. I have zero sympathy for the bankers and brokers who basically though money at me to spend. I'm done with their corrupt world and sleazy tricks. Any of you below who sided
with the banks based on "YourWord" "Commitment" "Rules"
"Honor" are playing by a totally different book. The banks have been in the buisness, in one form or another for a thousand years. They figured out how to screw you before you were born and after you are dead. They play by the devils playbook. No............. I'm not crazy.

Who knows exactly what the real story is, ten years worth of battles bioled down to a two minute news clip is hardly informative. But, I'm sure without a doubt that there is a clause written somewhere within the mortgage agreement with Hoskins Hancock all over it. Protecting the banks investment with specailly worded insurance clauses.
Do not be fooled, the bank and IRS will get their due no matter what happens and for how long it takes.
You do not own your home, you do not own the land that it is on.................

Back in 1986,In the county that I mostly work in, the county gov. required all Home Improvement contractors to be licensed by the county.
No test, no certification no nothing, just give us the $$$$.Well, most contractors blindly cheered this move. Because most thought that it would weed out all the fly by nighters, and the man with van and tool in hand guy. Well 24 years later, nothing has changed. The only thing that has, is that now basically, everyone from tree contractors, landscapers, window cleaners, you name it, they need a license. And the county does nothing to help the contractors. It only puts more barriers, such as more requirements for permits, higher coverage for insurance. Once the county says "jump" all licensed contractors better jump.There are still plenty of non-licensed guys running around.
There are about 6 small ciies in county. One has already required a license for their city. And two more are debating.
The reason I'm writing this is because I do not see a difference between the Lead Cert. and any Lic. It is just another fee that WE will all pay for, without any benefit. Weather it's the bottom line, ease of buisness or more buisness. I'm up to my neck with regulations, from county, state, and fed. I'm tapped out. Does anyone here see it differently, Am I missing something?
Or, are we all supposed to bend over the saw horse and take it like a man and do not dare complain.

Not to get all political on you "Royalt" but this was started by Bush not Obama.

Here is the latest, I have been on the phone with the instructor in my area, and the EPA. Of course I scheduled the course for my company and head carpenter. From what I left with after I hung up with him is this.
Within a year or two the certification will be tied to License's, renewals, and permits. Also when I asked him to explain the liablity issue regarding the following scenerio.
Let's say I completed a project following all guide line's. There are two children that lives in the home, age's 4 and 7. A year after I finish the project one child shows up with elevated lead in the blood. Does this certification protects me or exposes me to a lawsuit.? The response "NO ANSWER".
How can it be proven that the child did not have the lead before the renovation.? The response "NO ANSWER"
What if the home owner has had a major renovation completed in 2000 and whatever, there were no requirements at that
time. They have been living with the residue of this renovation for who knows how long. And then here I come in to renovate a staircase under the guidelines. And, well, I think you know were I'm going with this. The response, you quessed it. "NO ANSWER"
I do not know what the right answer to this certification is. As a contractor, I always try to do the right thing, I go above and beyond what is expected from me for my clients and by the codes.I have been in buisness for 25 years. But this lead thing looks like a trap to me. It looks like it puts my company on the hook for past, present and future lead poisoning. I do not see it any other way. Correct me if you think differently.

Working with HUD is a far cry away from working with a home owner, who's either taking their renovation money from their own savings or equity in the home. Hud works with tax revenues and fees, it not their money. So sure, Hud, Comercial or goverment jobs are the way to go. But for a residential renovation contractor I can not see how this is going to help our bottom line. It is not an over reaction, it will cost more to work on a project, more paper work, more time. That is a fact. And the fact of the matter is if the owner turns to you and says, " The hell with it, I'm not doing the work" then it just cost you a job.
How is this an over reaction?
Last time I checked I am a carpenter not a health care professional.

I'm a contractor in the suburb north of New York city. The majority of homes in this area where built before 1970. Most of the homes that I worked on over the past 25years falls within the years before 1970. I understand the health issues with lead, no, I'm not certified. But I do have a problem with burdening my company with this issue. The economy sucks as we all know. My co. at it's peak five years ago was grossing 1.1 , now I was lucky to break 300k. in 09. My pricing of jobs is getting to the point where it is not making sense, and profit is not seen. No matter where I can to cut cost, be more effecient, less waste or faster production.It's not enough. There will always be the under that radar contractor. But thats not my concern. My concern is after I get certified, I'm required to basically annouce to the home owner that the test came back positive and your house is full of lead. So that 8k job is now 12k. What would you like to do. So now amoung 100 reasons not to get the job, thanks for 101. Also to add to the mess that this puts us in, I was just notified today by one of my suppliers, the one that refers my company to do installs for them. That unless I do become certified, they will not be referring my company.
One last issue, which was already mentioned. The big "WHAT IF". Let's say you do all the right things. And someone turns up lead in the blood. Guess whos name will be on the lawsuit.
After three years of this ecomony, 10 men laid off, three trucks taken off the road, profit no where to be seen. I'm thinking about tossing in the hammer. I thought I can stick it out, but.................what are your thoughts.