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I am considering the use of 2 x 6 Ponderosa Pine T & G Flooring for a Chalet style cabin I am building in Eastern Arizona (Town of Alpine). I can get the stuff from a local lumber mill for about $1.50 – $1.75 a square foot. It comes sanded with a slight beveled edge. Looks like decent stuff for the money. I would be applying over a 5/8″ OSB subfloor. Any thoughts? I expect it to scratch/dent more so than say Oak or Maple. Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Adam - I think Ponderosa Pine is awful soft for a floor. Southern Yellow would do nicely, but I'd leave the Ponderosa for ceilings and vertical surfaces. Just my opinion. (that does seem like a decent price though) - jb
*Very soft and moves quite a bit for a floor. But if it is an occasional use cabin and you are willing to live with the downside....
*Agree with Jim and Fred. Pondersoa is too soft for flooring. The material you are talking about is most often used as roof or second level decking over exposed beams. The beveled edges face down. When used for second level decking it is usually covered with carpet or another durable material. If you use it exposed you do not want the bevels facing up. They will collect dirt and be impossible to keep clean. Sand and finish in place. Also need to consider the thickness of this material when you frame-up. Otherwise, you may find yourself cutting an inch or so off the bottoms of your doors and jams to fit them in the rough opening.
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Thanks for the input guys. Its my understanding that the mill also provides Doug Fir. Is Doug fir any better? Appreciate your comments.
Adam
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Not really. They are all soft woods. Typically wood flooring is something hard that will be stable and take quite a bit of punishment. Tile over proper underlayment, oak, even seen some maple.
That said I know a guy that did use soft wood(can'r remember whether pine or fir) as flooring in a cabin. After a few years use it definitely looks rustic and the joints open and close with the seasons. But, it was cheap and it suits his desires.
So, study your woods and prices and decide what is worth it to you.
*Not familiar with Ponderosa in my neck of woods but we use what's called 5/4", T&G (full dimensioned 1 1/4") white pine. It doesn't need a sub-floor if its T&G and the joists are 12" or 16" OC. It can be installed diagonally or perpendicular to joists. Once the house is filled in, we fine sand the surface, stain it and load on the urethane. It makes a beautiful floor but the surface is soft and must be looked after. Pine cabinet surfaces can be hardened by polishing them with glass or bone although a floor would take a few years of manual labor. If you use a 3/4" pine, you will have to screw or nail through the sub-foor and into joists if you want to combat the flex and probable use adhesive between the pine and the ply. This seems like too much work and a a silly way to go --- if you have a mill available, go up to the 5/4" dimension and forget the subfloor. The character of this type of floor is special and when it shrinks, plastering (white of tinted)the joint spaces followed by more urethane looks very attractive.
*DFir is MUCH harder than Ponderosa Pine. If you can pick through their stacks and use all vertical grain (look at the end of the stick, the grain will run perpendicular to the width of the board with no less than 12 growth rings per inch) you'll have a floor that will stand up just fine. There are many such VGFir (have to bow my head when I say that) floors in older homes here in the Pacific NW.
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The ponderosa is soft, but if you want to get a rustic look,
and you don't have energetic dogs, you may like it fine.
But don't expect it to stay the way it is. It'll shrink and
swell, and scratch and dent very easily. I'd go with the
Doug Fir as an alternative.
MD
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We've been living 8 years with the same flooring you're asking about, minus the underlayment/subfloor. Yes, it's soft and moves a lot throughout the seasons. Yes, it scratches very easily. And yes it was cheap! Only thing I'd do different is the finish. Definitely do not use polyurethane. The wood is too soft to support it, so scratches and dings become much more obvious with age. A wax finish would age much more gracefully.
Dave
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I agree with Dave. The poly doesn't hold up well, at least
not the one I used on a floor like this once. Also, if you
use the softer woods, don't stain them. The stain will
really show the scratches later. Best to keep it in a
natural tone, disguises scratches better.
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I stand corrected on the urethane. Varnish will probably work better than urethane, but if I thought you would actually do it, you could do a labor of love: mix up turpentine with bees wax and a little boiled linseed oil and rub it on/in after the staining. Polish the pine with smooth glass or bone and you will be amazed how densely you can pack the grain and harden the surface -- making it very resistant to moisture and abrasion.
Just like any wood flooring, it should be sealed and treated on all 6 sides of each plank (do the hidden 5 sides before installation), this way your shrinkage/swelling problem will be almost eliminated. A latex paint can serve the to seal all but the exposed surface.
*tedd - are you sayin' that you seal 6 sides of hardwood flooring when you install it? Thanks - jb
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Holy smokes, 6 sides, each piece? Sounds more like a labour
of HATE to me!
M
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Yes, all six sides ... when moisture promises to be a problem like when basement is continuously damp or over crawl space without vapor barrier. It can be done a couple of ways: (1) spray gun from underneath with latex primer; or (2) the labor of love is to brush each plank in shop before going to site.
PS - Specifically talking about planked floors without ply or OSB subfloor.
PSS - I do same with clapboard and solid wood siding.
*Many of my clients want the look of antique heart pine floors. they are common in the housed in this area. I tell them that the new pine is not going to hold up. PINE IS NOT A HARDWOOD. The antique pine seen in the antibellum houses was from virgin growth trees. Even these floors do not hold up under modern conditions. Many historic houses are close to losing theirs. I lovethe look of pine, but is not a suitable material if you want a durable floor.Rick Tuk
*Vertical grain fir flooring (t&g) is in half the homes built before the '60's. The dense annular rings are just as hard (well , almost as hard) as any of the oak flooring. It's the white summer growth that is soft and wears faster. If the douglas fir is available, and you can select a VG, then go for it. Even if you can't get VG, the Doug Fir will be a GOOD flooring matl. Get it dried to about 15% before you install it , and store it in the house to let it acclimate to the conditions of the house.Rick Tuk is correct, the oak will wear better , but we're talking 5,6, or 10 generations, and with a 2x6 material should not be problem. If this is a 2x6 product why do you need the subfloor. What is your framing system. ?Is there some areas where you can let the floor be the ceiling of the room below ? Sounds like a natural for a chalet style.Prefinishing on all 6 sides will definitely help stabilize the floor, or any other trim or siding material. And if it's the ceiling below, think of all the work you save . b Have fun !
*Thanks for all the input guys. I will most likely stay clear of the Ponderosa Pine flooring. May look into Doug Fir, however. Another type of wood flooring I am strongly considering is 3/8" OAK or HICKORY HARDWOOD from Luanstein in Michigan. The stuff installs with 18g 1 inch pnuematic nailers along with construction adhesive. Sells for about $2.60 - $3.00 square foot, unfinished. I would have to put down another layer of subflooring if I go this route -- like a layer of 1/2" plywood. The subfloor used by my builder is a 5/8" OSB floor over Georgia Pacific engineered I-Beams, 16" on center. The 3/8" hardwood comes pre-sanded from the mill and does not look too difficult to install. Originally I was concerned about the thickness (not being able to sand/refinish it in the future), but it looks much better than the typical HOME DEPOT stock, including many of the laminated/engineered products available. I am doing this cabin on a budget, however, so I really can't afford $5.00 - $7.00 bucks a s/f. Take a look at the place here:http://hometown.aol.com/azaharchuk/myhomepage/artgallery.htmlThanks for any input!Adam
*Now wait a minute. You say you like this 3/8" t+g at 2.60-3.00/sq ft, unfinished, uninstalled. How is this any better than 3/4" at a similar price?
*Here in the Southwest/Arizona, Hardwood flooring is not used heavily. If you know of a place I can get 3/4"...at $2.60 s/f + SHIPPING....PLEASE LET ME KNOW! ! !Home Depot will special order 3/4" for $5.00 - $7.00 a square foot. Thanks!
*You gotta be kiddin' me! We get Select Red Oak installed, sanded and 2 coats of Swedish finish for 6.75/sq. ft. here in Western Washington. I know there are regoinal differences, but that is hard to believe. I guess you have checked around with hardwood floor companies, huh? Man, that just seems high...OK, call Bear Creek Lumber - (509) 997-3110 in Winthrop WA. I have an old cataloge of theirs that says "jobsite direct delivery anywhere in the USA". I would like to know what you find out, but I still believe you can find 2+1/4" Oak strip flooring nearby. You might have to drive to the nearest city, but if you have a HD nearby, there almost has to be a hardwood supplier near you that either has, or can get you this flooring under 3.00/ft.
*Doug Fir and Pon Pine are two different animals. Pon Pine is very, very soft. Doug Fir is great wood and does make excellant floors when of the old growth VG (vg=quartersawn) variety. Doug Fir does produce the devil's own splinters at times. A big narly Doug Fir splinter must either rot out, or be cut out. Keep that in mind if your not going to put a thick hard layer of finish over it. The VG, old growth, doug fir floor in my church is about 60 years old and doing fine. Did I forget to mention that there is no way in hell that good Doug Fir will cost less than Oak? The Pon Pine is the ceiling were it belongs. My cabin still has just 3/4 cdx ul-tg and might just get another coat of sanded plywood and a good paint job.Joe the Yahoo Duncan
*Doug Fir is a nice floor,but, as stated, it moves a lot. If you can get kiln dried material it will help with the instability, but I recommend using a moisture meter before installation. Make certain you have less than 1% difference between the sub-floor and the material to be installed. Allow the material time to acclimate to the surroundings for at least ten days before installation. And as "Crazy Legs"stated be picky about the material you are installing. If this is going to be a high-use floor be prepared for uneven wear, soft grain will wear fast, knots and hard grain will wear slow. If this is not apealing to you buy tavern grade red oak. It has great color, is cheap, and lasts a long time, installation is actually easier than pine or doug fir.
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I am considering the use of 2 x 6 Ponderosa Pine T & G Flooring for a Chalet style cabin I am building in Eastern Arizona (Town of Alpine). I can get the stuff from a local lumber mill for about $1.50 - $1.75 a square foot. It comes sanded with a slight beveled edge. Looks like decent stuff for the money. I would be applying over a 5/8" OSB subfloor. Any thoughts? I expect it to scratch/dent more so than say Oak or Maple. Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks