Today I got an estimate for $32 large to repair damage to a foundation
It’s a house with a crawl space.
Apparently Three corners of the home are damaged and to need to be repaired. Repair process is:
1. Dig under the damaged part of the foundation
2. Installing forms to make a bigger & better foundation
3. Mudjacking concrete into the forms & thus raising & leveling the home.
Do you do basement and foundation work? Could your company fix this problem at a lower price? If so, how?
Replies
is this house brick?
i saw some guys come into my neighbors down in haysville a few years back,this house was setteled all over and the brick looked so bad i would of thought they would of had to tear the brick off and side the house. they just went around it with pier jacks that went down into the ground quite aways,then when they all were in place started jacking the foundation back up. when they was done the brick looked very good from the street. i think it cost around 7-8k then.
one company here in town i think is called power lift. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Larry, yes it's brick. One corner of the house has the diagonal cracks.The contractor says tiers are NOT an effective repair as they do not "seat" on a solid enough surface.I think tiers have been done to many many homes in this area and, before today, I had never heard that they are ineffective.I've never personally had tiers installed but I was thinking they charged about $2,500 per tier and then the only question is how many tiers are needed.
Edited 12/11/2007 9:22 pm by mrfixitusa
I'm guessing you mean "piers"?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Maybe piers to you, but tears to him when he writes the check."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes you're right piers is the correct termThis is a drawing of piers raising a cracked foundationhttp://www.davenportfoundationrepair.com/fps.htm
There are many different ways that "piers" can be used for foundation repair. That picture's only one example.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
So - you are actually having the footers repaired/replaced...
Have you been following madscientist's foundation repair? It is bid and contracted for something like $128,000.
I have got to say I find the tone of your posting annoying. You sound like a homeowner who is angry that the price to fix something is so high.
If you are unhappy with the price, get more bids. Real bids from local contractors. Blithley throwing it out on this forum will solve nothing.
tone of your posting annoying
huh?
Pretty decent post if yu ask me (which you didnt, not to annoy yu)
He's just waiting for me to say to wait for a good DIY to buy the house. Pretty sure that's the type thing I could fix DIY for less that $1K out of pocket <G>. Bought one similar and turned $50K profit on it in 2 years even before the market took off in 2000.
Aint gonna say how much $$ the same time spent in the day job would catch , but the exercise would sure beat jogging on a treadmill!
Get your shovel and a couple 5 gal buckets. Lets turn that into a basement with 9' ceilings! :)
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
It doesn't sound unbelievable. Maybe someone else could do it for seven, because they're clever, they cut corners, they're outright crooks, or this guy is highballing. (I'm amazed at the number of contractors that highball and then seem shocked when you don't take their bids.)
The only way to find out is to get another bid or two.
For us to give much more advice we'd need to know how big the house is, whether it has brick or stone on it, the type of foundation, the cause of the foundation failure, etc.
come on now man. you've been here long enough to know what a waste of electrons this question is!!!!
you might possibly get some comments with value if you mentioned something about the house like what sort of construction, how larger it is, one tow or three stories, site access, region of the country, etc.......
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Yes, you're right. I should have given more background.It's a 3,200sq ft, brick, ranch home built in 1963. It's on crawl space here in Wichita, Kansas and it's in a part of town that has problems with clay soil.One corner of the home has a significant diagonal crack about 1/2 wide.The foundation has settled due to negative drainage and water settling beside the foundation. The house has roof gutters but no splashblocks.The water has cause the foundation to settle and in the corner where the crack exists in the brick, the interior drywall has a significant cracking.The foundation probably needed repairing many? years ago. The contactor indicated he thought he remembered giving an estimate sometime in the past few years or even longer and it just never got repaired.Let's see, I think that's about it. I guess these types of repairs are pretty sophisticated and you don't just go in for 1/2 a day and install one pier and call it good.I apologize if I offended any foundation contractors. Today I just wasn't ready for a bid of $32 and I think I nearly passed out when I heard a quote of such a high price when I was expecting something in the $2 to $3,000 range.
Brick house all spread out on poor soils. That could easily be a fair price for a professional good outfit. That doesn't mean somebody else couldn't do a decent job for half that if they worked with cheaper help and no insurance, etc.But doesn't sound like a job you could even get set up for 2-3 grand.
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Clay is one of the worst soils to have a foundation on. It expands and contracts with moisture levels, and never does so evenly. Under the circumstances a pier scheme, where the piers go down to stable soil, would theoretically be better than the mudjacking scheme that will presumably only go a little deeper than the frostline. But then you'd want piers all around the foundation, not just on the failed corners.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
For that kind of $$, I'd like to be upgrading to a basement, but you're talking about a pretty good sized house.jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
http://www.ramjack.com
I'd be skeptical until I talked to lots of other foundation repair specialists.
Foudation repairs are one of those "scary" and "mysterious" operations that tend to lead to outrageous repair bills. Some are justified and other are nothing more than hype.
We are going through a similar process on a flip that we are doing and the foundation contractors are winning the battle for idiot contractor of the job award. We have already refused one bid at $28k because we think it is a $4k job. We might still use one contractor that will do it for 6k but we might do it with hourly laborers and get it done for 3 or 4k.
After you research the various ways of fixing this problem, you'll be able to judge which cost is reasonable.
If you are in clay, you probably should have a foundation drain system installed and it's critical that you slope all water away from the foundation.
I'd probably shim the house up on the foundation from where it sits now and re brick it. Slope the soil properly and add the drain system.
I worked 30 years in clay areas and the settling issues dissappeared after the builders started installing foundation drainage systems. We only see the settling issues on the older houses built before the advent of footing drains.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks for the info you provided. It sounds like you've been around the block once or twice.Yesterday was "inspection day" for the 1963 Ranch, 3200 sq feet. The Buyer has fallen in love with this home and wants it so badly.Inspection #1 was a home inspection for $325. The inspector really knew his stuff. He told me something I should have known but didn't or I had forgotten it.He said "be very very careful buying any home that has been winterized. He said when the water gets turned off, rubber components in faucets and shut off valves dry out and there is a good possibility they will not work properly".He said it is very detrimental to a home to shut off the heat and A/C.I told him "I see this everyday". "Many homes have been winterized" "its very common"Inspection #2 cost $69. A licensed heating contractor looked at the heating and A/C system. The home has one furnace and one A/C system and he said "one furnace and A/C system CANNOT adequately heat and cool a 3,200 sq ft, one level home". He said it's impossible. But I said "this home has been that way for 34 years now.He said a home that large must have two separate systems. I think we're looking at around $10 K.Inspection #3 cost $150. This was the foundation contractor. He was an older guy and he really knew his stuff. He has done this for many years. But I nearly fell fainted when he handed us the written estimate for $32,600 for the foundation work.I had told the Buyer 3-4 weeks ago he was looking at $2 to $3 K for foundation repair.The Home Inspector had told him the same thing ($2 to $3 K to fix one corner)I called a friend last night and asked him about a foundation repair he had done on an investment home. This was a couple of weeks ago.The house is 1950's brick ranch with a walk out basement. One corner had a bad crack.They fixed it with one Pier for $2,500The foundation contract uses a helix type of system to screw it down to bedrock. He knows from experience about the location and how deep you must go. In that part of town it's 25 ft.Apparently they screw it in and raise it up and it's done in two days.I wanted to ask you how you would go about "shimming" the house (you mentioned that in your post above"Thanks to everyone for their input.
I dated a gal from your neck of the woods a few years back and from what I remembed about building costs you could have a new foundation poured and have the house moved to it for $32k in Kansas dollars!
I also looked at quite a few houses while there with foundation problems of various kinds and asked the local contractors how they handle the poor soil conditions. Unfortunately, many of them have to be so cost concious they don't really build replacment foundations any different than the original that failed!
I'll bet a half dozen margaritas at Outback Steakhouse that what you need is a new foundation with a proper base of hauled in gravel, a drainage system, and more hauled in backfill, perhaps even some tension cables as part of an engineered fix to allow the entire foundation to move as a whole. That's most likely going to be the proper fix, not the absoulte minimum to get by, and it's important to differentiate the two in your mind. Income properties often get the minimum, a house to retire in should get a proper fix.
Having said all that, in places you may go through all the hoops and a new $60k foundation will sink a bit into that Kansas clay. I was totally intriqued by flat areas with soil conditions that simply don't seem to have a solid bottom. It's not uncommon to raise the house and shim between the foundation and plates, adjusting every few years as needed.
Without a soil test (engineer inspects soil samples taken from a drill down below the footers and gives an opinion of the load bearing) it's hard to say what you need so the job would be bid high. We would bid the job with a stated assumption of what the soil test would be, with adjustments for worse conditions, so it's not really a fixed bid since conditions are always a #### shoot.
Happy Holidays!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
One wonders why you wouldn't just build a house there on I-beams, with 6-8 adjustable piers supporting everything, to be adjusted every few years.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Before I was going to spend that much money I would hire a structural engineer specializes in foundation, but does not sell repairs. Might even get some test boring to find how deep bedrock is and what the soils are. But a good engineer would probably be well versed in the soils in htat neigghborhood and also the building practices of that era.But I realize that this being a potential buyer on a foreclosure you might not get them to spend htat much money.Also I don't belive the HVAC guy. Admittity a house of that size might "perform better" with a split system if the ducts where done right you should be able to keep the house reasonably comfortable.But that does not mean that I would not use it to negotiate with the bank.Rather it "might" be something that needs upgrading. But as you said people have lived with it for 34 years so that they probably could live with it for another few years while they take care of more important things..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Here in Wichita an architect studied under Frank Lloyd Wright. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wright-house.com/frank-lloyd-wright/fallingwater-pictures/fallingwater-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wright-house.com/frank-lloyd-wright/fallingwater.html&h=499&w=560&sz=59&tbnid=wM6WUpGe6aovqM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfrank%2Blloyd%2Bwright%26um%3D1&start=1&ei=pyVgR42BLYXOeOacgYIB&sig2=7sRP4_jDsHLp5NdXXNgVkQ&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=1He designed some unusual homes here in wichita.I've seen two of the homes he designed back in the 1960s ? and these are really unique.One home has a small creek running from side to side across the lot and across the front of the home.So you walk over the creek on kind of a wooden walkway to enter the home.The water runs against the side of the foundation of the home.I wonder what they did, if anything, to construct the foundation to be be under water. I
Now you both know why the first buyer backed out.
Might be time to try to renegotiate this deal before it swallows your buyer.
Joe H
Did you post questions about this a few weeks ago? With pictures?
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No but we're going to have an electrician inspect the house on Friday and I can take some pictures then and post them.
>> The home has one furnace and one A/C system and he said "one furnace and A/C system CANNOT adequately heat and cool a 3,200 sq ft, one level home". He said it's impossible. But I said "this home has been that way for 34 years now. <<
Ahhhh... I live in a 3200 sq ft ranch that is heated and cooled with one system. Works fine.
A few more details - the house is mostly brick and I built it pretty tight (in 1999) but it's not super-insulated or anything like that. It's actually 2600+ on the first level with a ~600 sq ft bonus room upstairs.
The HVAC system is all electric - there is no gas in our neighborhood - although I could have gotten a dual fuel propane/electric, I didn't want to spend the extra $$$. It is a zoned system. It has 3 zones 2 for main level, and one for the bonus room. We have always been very satisfied with the performance although DW always wants it colder and I always want it hotter :-)
After reading through this thread, I'm going to recommend that you take IdahoDon, Piffin, and Jim's advice seriously.
I do this sort of work, and there are many ways to go about it for a good result, and many ways to get a very bad, very expensive result.
Out of curiosity, what is your interest in this project?
It doesn't sound like you are the buyer or the seller.
In any case, just getting a bunch of doggone different bids from a bunch of doggone different people with a bunch of doggone different ideas on how to go about this doggone project could leave the homeowner more confused than a baby in a topless bar. (And that was funny, I don't care who you are). <G>
And even worse, they could still end up with one of those expensive and bad results.
Three really important points;
First of all, what has happened there was not a "settling" failure. It's a shear failure, and it is measureable, predictable, and controllable.
Secondly, it is entirely possible to build on clay soils successfully.
Third, and most importantly, successful work on problem soils depends upon an integrated approach. I have seen adequate foundation work in problem soils for multi-million dollar projects destroyed (with the house subsequently condemned) by the actions of one half-witted but well-intended landscaper who thought it was a shame top waste all that roof runoff.
Shear mechanics is more than I'm going to go into on a Breaktime post, but the short version is it would be a really good idea to bring a competent, open-minded structural engineer out to the site.
Make sure the patient is still in good enough shape to survive the operation. If the house has been structurally compromised, figure out what needs to be done about that before you begin.
And don't forget to look at the plumbing.
Then look at all of the drainage conditions that pertain to the site, year-round.
Then look at anything that may have changed in the immediate vicinity since the house was built. I've seen new highways 1/2 mile from the site so completely change the water table that the repair is not anything ike you would think.
Now you can begin to evaluate the bearing conditions under the house. And so far all you have spent is one hour of an engineer's time.
The very short version of the rest of the story is that in the right application, helical piers are about as good as it gets, and there is no substitute for local knowledge and experience. I'll take the earned wisdom of a responsible, honest, experienced tradesman over all the theory in the world anytime.
I'm the Realtor working with the Buyer.It's a wonderful old house but the list of problems and issues keeps growing.It's a 3200 sq ft U-shaped ranch on a 1.2 or 1.3 acre lot.The home is three bedrooms and its very different from the same size ranch home with a rectangular shape (as opposed to the U shape).Its a three bedroom and it's very different from the same size home with a 4 bedroom floor plan.The house has exterior doors in almost every room of the house. It has a lot of charm and is really unique.It has a room next to the garage with an exterior door leading into the courtyard which would be a perfect entrance to a business which would be incorporated into the home.The Buyer has the house under contract.We're in the "inspections" phase. We're gathering written documentation of the condition of the house and at the end of the week will submit a contract amendment and lowering our offering price based upon the issues which have been identified.
After reading Petes story, I think you know what the score could be.Houses like this are they kind that real estate investors make big money on. They'll ask for 100k discount on that 32k repair estimate, then shim the house up and repoint the masonry at a total cost of 2k. If I lived in the house, that's what I'd do and be fine with it. Most sinking foundations sink so slow that I really don't care. If I have to shove some new steel shims in there every other year to eliminate a squeak, I'm okay with that. I'd probably pour a wide pad and add an adjustable stanchion and just give it twist every once in a while to tighten it up. We all tend to think that a small crack is a disaster but if you look around there are cracks everywhere. Life goes on. Petes situation is much different. He's talking about a house that was built in an area that will never support a house properly. The house would need to be floated or cassions drove to bedrock. I've seen a lot of houses built like that in MI in swampy bogs that take advantage of sensational views. It's expensive but worth it to those that want that setting. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
SWMBO is in the real estate bizness and the phrase
It has a lot of charm and is really unique
is often code-speak for "This place is a dump, but maybe some sucker will buy it." - lol
From my experience, that 32K may only be the tip of the iceburg.
I bought a house in S. Cal that was so cute (but out of level and low on maintenance) the wife just had to have it.
I found a foundation guy that gave me a quote of 25K to level the house. 2 1/2 story on a slab, about 1600 sq ft footprint. And this was 10 years ago.
His findings showed the front of the house was 6 1/2 inches lower than the back.
He would dig a hole and under about every 6 to 8 feet apart along the footings. Fab a steel jack in each on a 24" sq pad of 1/2" steel. Ended up with 30 of these holes. Then used hydralic jacks to raise the foundation (and thus house) at each point until level. Some only needed a 1/2", others that 6 1/2." Following that, and with the house up in the air, his team of very short (about 4' 6" or less) Central Americans would dig channels between each original hole, creating a continuous trench under the old footing. Then installed plywood sides along the outside, making new forms. Then the ceement guys pumped those forms full, creating a new subfooting with a larger footprint, while encasing the fabbed steel jacks. Then the mudjackers (after the existing flooring was removed) came in and pumped the inside sunken slabs back level. And he was gone.
He did tell me that this step would most likely create a few other necessary repairs after. Afterwards, I discovered just how much:
Windows and doors. The old ones were out of square and many cracked upon releveling. Those that didn't, were previously rendered unusable and weren't maintained and had rotted. The doors now closed easily, but the previous people had planed then in order to get them to work. Now they had gaps. All had to be replaced.
Several plumbing problems (broken waste stacks and pipes) arose. Instead of mudjacking the garage, they simply tore the floor out. By the time things were done, the whole house got replumbed.
All first level finished floors needed to be replaced. 1600 sq ft of new travertine.
The ceement stucco siding was damaged and cracked further during the process. 40K.
The roof developed leaks. New roof - 40 K.
The stem walls along the front of the garage, when the tilt occured, sheared off towards the street. Those had to be rebuilt.
Garage doors got wrecked.
Extensive drywall damage occured.
Utilities had to be re-entranced.
Grade and drainage changed. New sidwalks, driveways and patios were necessary.
The swimming pool was also found to be out of level and cracked halfway thru.
In total, I spent another 500K on top of his 25. Shoudda bulldozed the darn thing in the first place!
Didn't recover half of it upon sale.
Good side of the story: Foundation repairs generally don't require a permit. Imagine that!
Walk away slowly. And pretend you didn't see this one.
Edited 12/12/2007 11:04 am ET by peteshlagor
Yesterday I said to the Buyer "have you had enough?"I said Are you ready to walk away?He said "No, I would rather buy a home needing repairs. That way I can fix them and I will know what I've got"There is some wisdom in what he's saying
wow, that's major. I'll relay your experiences to the guy I'm working with. Thanks for your real life experience