Electrical gurus-
I got a EEmax series 3 tankless water heater for the dream house. Today
an electrical contractor that I took the plans to, told me that I will have to have a 400 amp service to support it. (It uses 3-40amp circuits
for a total of 120 amps at 240.)
I didn’t have a problem until he also told me that the price for the panel install would be $3600 instead of $1200 of a 200 amp service.
(Thats just the panel part – doesn’t include any of the rough or trim work or the temp pole.)
Does this sound fair? Why so much more? Are there other problems with using a 400 amp service besides the extra up front costs?
Tigger
Replies
Sounds about right. The other problem is that electricians are going to up their rates a notch when they see the panel, just because they figure they can.
True, 200 A panels are mass produced. 400's are a much lower volume item, so the price is substantially higher.
-- J.S.
I don't think it's a big deal - if it was daylight, I'd take pix of my install -
One 400-A meter base, flanked on either side by 200-A disconnects. 4-0 AL from each of those about 35' to two 200 amp panels in my "equipment room" in the center of the house. One panel handles basement and first floor, one does 2nd floor, attic, and 90-A subfeed to shop. Except the meter base, which an electrician friend gave me, it's all normal homeowner stuff.
I had trouble with my little town when I put it in, the first 400-A service, so they wound up running two parallel 3-0 copper from the transformer (aerial) to my weather head.
Didn't have nun 'o that "MCM"
Forrest
Mine's kind of the same, but I went underground ( retrofit).
But still 400 meter socket to two 200 panels.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I'd be interested to know if you will ever reclaim your investment with energy savings? When you consider the costs for the service upgrade, the heavy guage wiring to the heaters, and the high cost of the heaters themselves, I wonder. I like the concept of tankless heaters, but they certainly come at a cost.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Why not put in a Rinnai tankless gas water heater and use a 200 amp service? They run really sweet on a generator by the way. We run our house on an $850 Troybilt 5500 kw gas generator during power failures. It runs the laundry, hot water, radiant heat, dishwasher, fridge, and stereo. Basically everything but the heat pump and the computer. Run it for three hours a day and get all the washing done and hot showers and we're good for the day.
sCOTT - I had a smaller tankless in my last house It let me keep the regular heater off all day except for 1 hour in the evening (Dishwaher).BUT-I'm not doing this for a big payback - I'm doing this becuase I have 3 grandchildren and I would like some world left for them.
On the other hand you can bet that electricity will rise more and soon!
Companies like Enron aren't gone they're just parking till people stop watching.
BTW Scott - I'm getting a $300 tax credit for using this tankless system.Tigger
>>>BTW Scott - I'm getting a $300 tax credit for using this tankless system.
That's noteable. I'll keep an eye open for similar rules here.
Thanks,
Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Scott - the 300 tax rebate is part of the new fed energy package passed this year. It's good for the 2006,2007 taxes. Also credits for things like more efficient windows, etc. So it you have any interest in this the time is NOW.Tigger
Edited 4/12/2006 5:04 pm ET by thetigger
As already posted, I also avoided the extreme cost of a 400A single main service panel by having two 200A service drops, panels and disconnects. Both service lines loop through a single meter ring at the power pole.
.....................Iron Helix
> .... by having two 200A service drops, ....
You're lucky. Here the DWP and DBS won't allow that. They figure it'll be used for a bootleg rental unit.
-- J.S.
So what do you do if somebody wants a real big house? I'v had several 1200 amp services installed in houses, (and still run short of circuits). Got one finishing up right now. Jim Devier
What they don't allow is two services, i.e., two meters on one house. You can get a single meter 400 Amp service. I haven't seen one, but they'd probably let you have 1200 or whatever so long as it's on one meter. Their only concern is having bootleg rentals, especially if they evade rent control. So, they want no more than one meter per address.
-- J.S.
So you have to put the other meter inside, eh?
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Nah, just staple a run of zip cord to the side of the utility pole. Hide it in a crack so they don't catch you.... ;-)
-- J.S.
Better than zip cord, use that transparent speaker cable :-)
consumer reports magazine says the break even point on tankless is about 25 years.
"consumer reports magazine says the break even point on tankless is about 25 years."With or without the $300 tax credit?
THanks to all for the help . I got a call back from our elect code supervisor and I CAN use 2-200amp boxes. I can use the spare amps for shop stuff ;-]Tigger
Maybe sell 'em to people struggling by in electric cars?
Forrest
hey that's an idea - I'll buy a Prius and plug it in at night.
> I'll buy a Prius and plug it in at night.
There are lots of them around here. They're a hybrid, nothing to plug in. The electric part is charged by the gas engine. It's sort of like an electric first gear, or a starter on steroids.
-- J.S.
"There are lots of them around here. They're a hybrid, nothing to plug in. The electric part is charged by the gas engine. It's sort of like an electric first gear, or a starter on steroids. "Actually there are.Seems that there is an aftermarket installing additional batteries and a charger so that they run more on electricity.Don't know which models it is done on as there are a couple of different technologies.
I think we did ours the same way McD did his: single drop to a 400 amp meter base, then split to two 200 amp panels. Here, the utility supplies the meter base, so the only thing really different (for which we had to pay extra) was the weatherhead and the post going into the meter base (must have been 3 or 4 inch conduit), and the larger gauge wires associated with that. From the meter base to the panel, everything was standard. We only had one panel installed, so it was a few hundred bucks more than if we had just gotten a 200 amp upgrade. If we had gone ahead and gotten the second panel, we probably would have paid another $400 bucks. Our panel was only a few feet from the meter base.
Aaron
I just ran 120ft of 3" conduit from the disconnnect to my panels (2 225amp) I put in 3ph and it was spec'd at 350mcm so... figure about 600ft of wire... if you want sticker shock... then i had to have 1000ft of 400mcm from the transformer to the building...
found a guy who had some old inventory and i felt like i got a deal @ $4 a ft for the 400 and $3.50 a ft for the 350
lucked out and got 4000ft of 2/0 at HD for 1.02 a ft and 1000ft of 3/0 for $1.60ft
at HD i opened an account so i got points and 12 mo no interest... so not a bad deal
i mention all this because wire prices are nuts....
p
Usually you use a 320amp (400amp*80%) meter base with 2 200amp panels.
There are a lot of cost efficient designs and a lot of cost inefficient designs about.
Same here in VA, one 400 amp (320) meter base feeds two 200 amp panels. Wayyyy cheaper than a 400 amp main panel.I'm helping a friend in MD and due to the length of run from transformer to house the local POCO gave him a 600 amp meter base so they had room to bend the very large underground service conductors inside the meter base. That is a first for me. This will feed two 200 amp panels.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.