I’m looking at a 5′ culvert that carries irrigation water (here they call it a ‘ditch’) underneath a block of vintage buildings. The culvert was placed in the old concrete canal that the buildings were built over, as the original canal had begun leaking into the buildings.
The problem is that the culvert is now leaking at a joint at about the halfway point of the block, and is flooding the middle building basement. Someone has already tried to seal the joint from the inside, with no success. I don’t know what material was used for the patch.
There is not room to access the culvert from the exterior to check the bands or try to seal.
I’m here to ask if anyone has an idea of how to make an effective seal, from the inside of the culvert. Is there a material/product/method that can be applied to the joint that would stick to the galvanized metal?
So far I’m thinking some heavy elastomeric painted on, or how about EPDM glued on?
The ditch company has so far refused to make an attempt at a repair.
you only get one chance to do it right the first time
Replies
I've heard that they can line culverts with some sort of plastic stuff, but don't know anything about it. A google search might turn up something.
You might try to find out who owns the easement for the culvert and take it up with them. Talking about legal action or blocking off the culvert might get their attention.
Ron, relining the entire culvert would be cost prohibitive for my client, and the current culvert run is anything but straight.
Threats of legal action so far have had no effect on the ditch company, which owns the easement. Blocking off the culvert would get their attention, I'm sure, but that would flood a good part of town, and then the lawyers would be in hog heaven.
Check this out: The ditch company refuses to fix the culvert because an outside contractor installed it, the contractor is long gone, but when the ditch is running and flooding the basement - the ditch company is threatening action against my client because he is using pumps to pump the water out to the street- they say he is stealing their water!
Looking for the simple solution (if there is one) that makes me look like a hero.
you only get one chance to do it right the first time
Chemical grouting is what they call it, I don't know if something like this would work on that kind of pipe or not.http://www.rembco.com/chemical_grouting.html
The only problem I see with any kind of chemical coating, is that the culvert is going to have to be gotten completely dry and kept that way. As well as clean, and a suitable surface put on it for the coating to adhere to. As well as any temperature concerns.Welding can be done pretty much anywhere. Get the culvert dry just long enough for the safety of the person welding it. A quick washdown and scrub with a metal brush is enough cleaning.And none of that has to be done at all, if you decide to just run a new culvert inside the old.
Life doesn't often leave a very easy trail to follow.
What are the safety concerns about welding inside the middle of a 400' galvanized culvert?
Lining with a smaller culvert isn't going to work, as the culvert was not laid straight, which I'm sure is the problem. The leak is at a joint that is the low point in the run, and so the joint is misaligned, therefore it leaks.
A liner small enough to pass through wouldn't handle the amount of water that runs through.
The culvert itself is fairly dry when the ditch is not running - it typically runs from april to october.
you only get one chance to do it right the first time
What are the safety concerns about welding inside the middle of a 400' galvanized culvert?
Not a job I'd accept, galvanized puts out really nasty fumes. But that's what fans are for, assuming access. Maybe an separate air supply for the welder.
If it was a faulty installation and the galvanized is still sound, not a bad solution.
I once dug up a dam that had subsidence on the back side. Had to dig a hole for my hoe to sit in so I could get deep enough to reach the 16" over-flow pipe. Turned out the contractor had used 2 bolts, instead of the four the mfg. had provided for. Didn't hold. Back-filling left a gap, which had dirt falling in, getting washed away, dirt falling in, getting washed away...
After 6 years, there was a large depression. Eventually, no dam. Owner put an external patch over the hole. Got a nice settlement from the contractor, after a court appearance.
Depending on how mis-aligned it is, very possibly welding's your cheapest fix.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If this is inside a city, maybe the city would get involved?I think the stuff that Boats234 and Engineerguy suggested are a sort of spray on coating - It ends up sorta like pouring melted candle wax over something and then letting it harden. So it wouldn't matter if the culvert is straight. But I'm pretty sure that stuff ain't cheap.
It's kind of ironic when you think about it. The only Jackson you can accuse of committing a lewd act is Janet at the Super Bowl. The one we wanted to see. [Jay Leno]
Cheap is relative. So far, no one has been willing to tackle this thing because the concensus seems to be that the culvert wasn't installed correctly, and nobody wants to pony up to pay for a re-do.
The long term cost of doing nothing will be anything but cheap.
Not all the owners are on board for a fix. The rest of the buildings have no basements, and therefore no immediate signs of trouble. So they think there is no need for them to chip in for a fix.
I believe that the ditch company is ultimately responsible, but they have bluffed pretty well that they would let the lawyers fight it for them, and nobody wants to start that fight yet.
you only get one chance to do it right the first time
You're looking at this all wrong ;^) This is a cash cow. all you need to do is fix it for while. Just make sure that you are the person they call next time it leaks.
I'm both kidding and serious. They didn't do it right in the first place and don't want to spend the money to do it right again. It sounds like they want to play around with it into the near future.
I wouldn't be to concerned with permanently fixing it. Maybe present them with multiple ideas for fixing it and let them decide. That way when it leaks again they will have been part of the decision.
Heck,
I would weld it up, then put elastomeric with fabric on top of weld.
KK
Ken beat me to it.
I was going to say, weld it.
I'll add to that, another idea..
4 1/2' culvert...
Either line the entire thing with a new culvert, or line it to a point -=well=- past the leak. Then seal the 4 1/2' culvert to the ditch with hydraulic cement.
Life doesn't often leave a very easy trail to follow.
We used to use this stuff all the time (Splash Zone Epoxy)
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/under4u.html
It won't stick to a smooth surface, but it can be pushed into a leak from the inside. Sets up in about an hour.Sounds like it would be a band-aid at best. Especially if this is a corrosion problem.
If it's a misaligned or shifted joint, then the leak is causing more problems all the time due to scouring. No cheap or easy fix that I know of for that.
Start injecting grout????
I'll look at that product when I get a little time, thanks.
I beleive it is because of a misaligned joint, one problem is not having any room to get outside the pipe. The amount of scouring is at yet unknown.
Injecting grout may work.
you only get one chance to do it right the first time
call Winwater.... they gots what ya need 572-0800...
Corregated Steel is right near ya... maybe they can help...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks for the contact. I will give them a call when I understand the conditions better.
you only get one chance to do it right the first time
culvert leaks...
leak needs plugging..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Heck,
There are numerous ways to fix the culvert.
With the information you have provided, the easiest, although not the cheapest, would be to line it.
http://www.insituform.com/default.aspx
The liner is impregnated with an epoxy coating that is in contact with the existing culvert. Water is pumped into the interior of the liner, think sock, so that the liner is in full contact with the culvert. The water in the liner is then heated up inside the liner to cure the epoxy. The water is evacuated, the ends trimmed, and you have a "new" culvert.
Another method would be to slip-line the culvert with a smaller diameter pipe. Although this doesn't always work due to the pipe size differences/capacities.
Have you or anyone noticed any subsiding of the soil around the structures. That would be my primary concern.
Impossible is an opinion.
That seems like it would certainly work, but the logistics seem daunting. How much of the culvert would need to be treated? The whole 400'?
There is subsidance evident, as you may suspect. It is a concern.
you only get one chance to do it right the first time
Yes, you will want to line the entire culvert. And yes, I have lined pipes with this product that were installed back in the 1910-20 era. I have also done the slip lining too.
Let me add onto dovetail's thought. Start taking pictures and documenting everything regarding this problem. And send the drainage company a certified mail notice that their drain culvert is causing problems.
Juries and judges love negligence.
Impossible is an opinion.
This has law suit written all over it. Who owns the culvert? What is the name of the ditch company?
This is their property and you don't have a right to repair it. They own it and it is causing real damage. Their joke about suing the guy for "stealing their water" puts them in the same category as McDonalds with their hot coffee law suit.
I'm not a big fan of punitive damages but their flippant attitute is just asking for a big one. This makes me mad.
~Peter J. Michael
Heck,
Here is a thought to mull over.
How are you ever really going to know if you have stopped the leak?
What happens if you attempt a fix but at some point in the future the basement collapses due to the leak. Doesn't matter if the collapse is as a result of failure of your attempted fix or despite your attempted fix.
What is your liability?
I would be thinking long and hard before I attempted to repair something owned by a third party when that object of the repair carried so much potential liability.
It sounds like a leaking culvert is the small part of the problem . . . that is the larger part is the legal issue of who owns it and who is responsible for its maintainence. I think until that issue is decided, it's too early to even think about a solution to the leak. Action needs to be taken (legal that is). think mold, asthma, long term health etc. Call the local TV station, call the city and tell them they're gonna get embarassed if they don't provide some guidance and leadership, call your local politicians. You 've gotta get the public to perceive that there is a threat to health and safety. which there probably is or at least will be soon.
Edited 3/13/2008 4:31 pm ET by fingers
I don't know where you are from but, a company called William Walsh in n. Attleboro mass. does exactly what you need to have done, they do it with cameras and big inflatable tubes that they pull through the pipe with cables and the such. we have a call for this in our area of old pipes and canals in the mass. and ri. area. good luck "J"
This may help , but you will have to do some research. Locate a local culvert sales company. Buy a band for the proper dia. locate some self tapping sheetmetal bolts or lags. Lay your band where you need, a few beads of DOT approved caulk, drill and screw. That should take care of your problem. Regards!
Repair of Leaking Culverts
Hi. I realize that you had this problem a long time ago. But in case you are still struggling with that isssue, you may find this information helpful. I have just invented a new product that is ideal for the repair of leaking culverts. You can read more about this product by visiting our website:
http://pipemedic.com/stifpipe.php
The product has received significant attention since its introduction a couple months ago and many projects nationwide are consiedring the use of StifPipe!!
You can also download and print this 4-page paper that fully describes all the benefits of this new invention:
http://pipemedic.com/pdfs/StifPipe%20Article.pdf
Good luck.
Mo Ehsani
Professor Emeritus of Civil Engineering, Univ. of Arizona
Mo,
Resurrecting three year old threads for the thinly veiled purpose of promoting your own product is usually frowned upon around here. You and your company run the risk of followup messages containing some very unflattering things that Google will find.
Actually, I think what Mo did was OK.
We are all looking to expand our toolsets, and sometimes a solution to a problem my be invented after we solve it initially.
Besides, Mo was actully looking to answer a real issue someone had, not just starting a new thread out of the blue that no one was asking about.
Urethane Mahole Sealant
Urethane manhole sealant injected about 8-inches each side of the failed joint would seal it up.
Cool. You of all people would be the one with raised hackles. I figure if he passes your litmus test, he's safe. ;-)