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Yesterday, January 9, 2002, was a major milestone in the little remodeling project I’ve been struggling to get started since November of 1999. After $2000 to a structural engineer and $2000 to the city of LA, I finally have a building permit. And I’ve spent 10% of the budget getting it.
What is most amazing to me is the totally unnecessary stuff they’re making me do. I’m going to have to tear off a perfectly good recently installed roof in order to sister the existing 2×6 rafters with 2×8’s, and to sister the 2×4 ceiling joists with 2×6’s. The attic and roof are not involved at all in the changes I want to make. The building has been there since 1926, and none of the beams in question have deflected at all. Downstairs they want me to put 2×6 blocking between the girders and sub floor, with three nails into each block face nailed from the top. This means either pulling up the T&G oak to face nail thru the sub floor, or just forgetting about trying to make it look good and leaving big ugly nail heads all over the oak.
I’m trying to remember the four phases of dealing with a Los Angeles building permit…. was it denial, anger, bargaining and acceptance?
— J.S.
Replies
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Congrats, I've been following your travail since I started lurking over a year ago.
*John,It's not possible to drill a shallow hole first with a 1/2" bit so you could glue an oak pellet in after you've nailed? It would look better than nail-heads and be less work than pulling up the T & G. I don't know about there, but here you can buy the tapered pellets readymade
*John, I bought my home as a tear down. I had plans drawn up and then found out that virtually nothing I wanted to do would be allowed. After the anger etc. I went back to the building inspector to see what exactly could be done.... Working within those rules I retried to get approval, in the meantime the stock market collapsed (Oct. 89) taking my building budget with it. Filling the budget allowed me a lot of time to refine the plans and see what city hall would approve. Once the fund was fat again, I went to the building inspector and planning person and found out what was allowed, showed them an exact scale model and asked for their blessing. based on that approval I went to the sawmill and ordered the wood custom milled. (that means there is a no return policy) Once the wood was milled I went back and found out that to my horror the verbal approval wasn't gonna be honored. I spent the next year and a half going to city hall meetings and argueing literally about a few shovel's full of dirt. How if I tossed two or three shovel's full of dirt under the deck it wouldn't be considered structure and then according to the rules I could go ahead and build because my home would conform to the newest set of regulations.... Never mind that none of my neighbors conformed, never mind that 90% of the homes in my neighborhood didn't conform, if I wanted to touch my own property I had to conform to the latest set of rules and that meant that a couple of shovel's full of dirt (less than a yard) constituited land fill. (which wouldn't be allowed). Once granted it was too late in the building season to start, (we have nasty winters here in Minnesota) so I waited untill the next spring to get the permit. Well we all know what's happened to the stock market since last fall, that's right the fund is drained! I went ahead anyway, I figure that I can earn money any time but permits are too rare to not use. With my late start and tight budget I'm behind schedule and they say they won't grant me a renewal.... So what are they gonna do? Red tag me and make me stop? Ha! I'll just drag their butt into court and then delay as long as I can meantime I'll keep working on it. I figure as long as I make steady progress they can't deny me my right to finish my home. I get angry just thinking about it. The trouble isn't the building inspector. he's a decent guy just doing his job, rather the cunx that's mayor and her twxts, trying to make cookie cutter homes on a place that a cookie cutter doesn't fit.
*Yes, that's a possibility. Still, there would be so many of them. They'd be on 6 inch centers over each girder, and the girders are 4 feet apart. They'd look like rivets on the deck of a battleship. It's a depressing consideration because the undisturbed original floors from 1926 are in such good condition. The T&G is 5/16" thick, and runs parallel to the girders. One thought is to make up a number of 1/8" thick steel semicircles, about 4-6" radius, and use them to push up between the planks of the subfloor directly over the girders. If I can rock the lifted T&G to one side, I may be able to get a big enough gap to release the tongue from the groove. At least something similar to that has worked for me in salvaging T&G stock from closet floors for use in patching. Thanks ---- J.S.
*John, you sand the plugs smooth and if you do a good match of wood selection and grain orientation they almost disappear.
*Yes, but no matter how good they are, if I put them in, I'll always see them. Even if nobody else notices. With a plug every 6 inches, it may even be easier just to play with getting 3 - 4 strips out and back in.-- J.S.
*XJohn cut your 2xs to fit between the joist nail a couple of nails so that they peek out the side of the 2x and glue them up with coupious amounts of construction adhesive so it seeps out both sides and then toenail them to the joist.Tear out some base and sand some of the bad spotsin the floor that need tweaking any how. Tell em your done . If it works ........
*Welcome to Buidling and Saftey.The bottom line with LA (in my experience) is that any time a major construction is going on with additional framing and additions, they want you to bring certain areas up to Code. This is only a $40,000 remodel and you have to hire a structural engineer? Jeez, what the heck are you doing that costs so little, but requires so much work? I spent $14,000 on a roof tearoff and needed only a $200 permit. I spent $15,000 adding a bath and laundry room, and the permit was the same. I don't get it John.Honestly, they are required to have you bring up the framing up to Code when you are doing this stuff.Did they bust you on the seismic code by requiring sheer walls with the 80% coverage rule and tie downs?You didn't tell us about the electrical. What about the old knob and tube? Don't you have to rip all of it out, and install flex or romex? Look at it this way, you may have gotten out lucky.Seriously, best of luck on this project. I hope the construction goes faster and cheaper than the permit process.
*Why do you people live in places like these? (sort of)
*I live in Orange County just south of LA and I have been asking myself this question for years (why live here). The answer is that I just don't know where I should go, plus it is real easy to come up with a half dozen reasons why I shouldn't (mostly financial, job related etc..)which just bugs me to know end. If I knew of a place that was better (for me, my requirements etc...) I would move.
*Sean I also live in OC. I agree the weather is nice supposed to 80 today. But when I retire in 7 years (if the wife will go for it. Ive been prepping her for about 6 years) Ill move back to the Northwest. The weather is cold rainy,but the folks are so nice and polite(not talking the cities but kind of out where Jim Bodgett lives) and the food is good . Oh about the permits and the cost. Its about money, permit= fees+ improvements =increase the property taxes, the cities here definately want theres. Yea we got nice weather but we're paying for it.
*what about getting the Inspector to go for some type of engineered undermount bracket like they use for decking. Might want to check with Simpson to see what they have.
*I like it here. Went to a Lakers game last week, and the wife likes the plays and musicals at Opera houses in town. Me, I like the weather, it seems cold as hell here, but I here we had the high in the nation this week in Thousand Oaks where it got up to 82 degrees. The Building and Saftey stuff is part of the drill. If you replace the service panel, they will make you bring up the wiring to Code. So, either be prepared for that, or don't replace the panel. I understand why they make homeowners upgrade to current Code, otherwise it would never be done, and we's still have knob and tube with splices to romex.It is just something you get used to. I can't believe that it is any different other places. I know when I lived in the Midwest (Iowa) they had similar rules in the "big" cities there. Pull off a roof? Be preared to have the inpsector tell you what rafters are appropriate. Is it any different where you guys live?
*John,I live within the City of LA jurisdiction as well and I went to their new web site where you can estimate the permit costs. I could not believe what I found! For a 1200 sf addition the permit would be over $7,000!!! that includes over $4,000 in school fees! Can this be true?How many square feet are you adding for a permit fee of $2,000.00? Is it around 350 sf?
*> How many square feet are you adding for a permit fee of $2,000.00? Is it around 350 sf? It's zero square feet being added. I'm just moving some non-bearing walls, and making three small openings in bearing walls (4 ft headers)-- J.S.
*> This is only a $40,000 remodel and you have to hire a structural engineer? Jeez, what the heck are you doing that costs so little, but requires so much work? I'm making three openings in bearing walls on the first floor, the largest are 4 feet wide. I'm also combining a small kitchen and tiny bathroom into a nice master bath, which means moving a bathtub, and moving some non-bearing walls around. I bought the Parker-Ambrose book and did the calculations myself. The plan check guy refused to read them.Fortunately, my place is one of three identical buildings built by the same company, and the owner of the one next to me just finished a major remodel. He recommended his structual engineer to me. That job didn't include re-framing the roof, so my next step is going to be a letter to the engineer asking all the questions I can come up with after spending some more time looking at the plans. One question will be why I have to re-frame and they didn't. >I spent $14,000 on a roof tearoff and needed only a $200 permit. I spent $15,000 adding a bath and laundry room, and the permit was the same. I don't get it John. Neither do I. It may be that I'm getting hosed because I'm an owner-builder. It may be that they have a pattern of hosing owner-builders. Hmmm -- it may be that with clear proof of such a pattern we have a good shot at a class action for my good friend who specializes in construction litigation....> Did they bust you on the seismic code by requiring sheer walls with the 80% coverage rule and tie downs? No, but I'm putting in all the seismic stuff that I can where the walls are open. If the plaster's down, Struct #1 plywood goes up before the rocklath and new plaster.> You didn't tell us about the electrical. What about the old knob and tube? Don't you have to rip all of it out, and install flex or romex? There's no k&t here, it's all loomed wire in black pipe. I'm running all new electrical not because they made me, but because I want to. It's going to be EMT with compression fittings, just my personal preference. I'll re-use a little of the black pipe, but all the rest will be new.> Seriously, best of luck on this project. I hope the construction goes faster and cheaper than the permit process. Thanks, I need all the luck I can get.-- J.S.
*I got just the thing:http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=32683&category=1,41182Veritas® Invisible Nailing Kit Filling spots left by countersunk nails rarely results in successfully matching the color of the original wood. Our invisible nailer, a specialized small plane, avoids the problem by raising a small shaving, which is glued down again after you have installed a small screw or nail. It has numerous applications. The invisible nailer clamps a specially designed 1/4" chisel (with gouge-shaped edges to avoid side tear-out) at a 15° angle; its projection from the sole regulates the thickness of the shaving. A thin shaving is best - it is flexible. After the free end has been glued down, it can be clamped with a bit of transparent tape. We include a small container of fish glue, because of its high initial tack and the ease of clean-up with a damp cloth, but regular mucilage will work. The invisible nailer is made from non-marring stainless steel with a solid brass lever cap and bolt. Invisible Nailing Kit 05K51.20
*......... sounds like the commies took over the place.
*Also sounds like the old chip-lifter my grandfather had.
*I know what you mean Ron. The weather was just awesome today, but as far as I'm concerned that is the only good thing left (of course the Lakers still RULE!!!) I also really like the NorthWest too.I use to work in consulting in commercial/industrial facility design. They really stick it to the businesses when they apply for a permit. Working with Fire is also very unpleasant, they take there sweat time and hurry for no one. The building departments like to compare the asbuilts on the submitted plans to the latest plans that they have on record. If anything doesn't match they assume that it was all done without a permit and then they stick you with a bunch of fines/fees.
*Ian, we can get free pellets from rabbits. 'Round here we call the wooden things you stick in holes, plugs. Like in "I'm gonna plug that sucker up." They're not as cheap as rabbit turds, but they last longer...Dang, xJohn, way to plug away...Bugs Bunny
*my permit fee for my 1200 sq ft house was $218
*Thanks for the thought on the invisible nailer, but it doesn't look big enough to cover an 8d common, which is what the engineer has spec'd. My other concern with this device is that if the shaving is thin enough, it's a nasty surprise waiting for the next time somebody sands the floor.-- J.S.
*Here's what its costing me for permits to build in Snohomish County, about 40 miles from Seattle. Plan check fee $975, Site review $100, Permit fee $1500, Mechanical $70, Plumbing $126, Base fee $35, State surcharge $4.50, Parks fee $757, School district fee $2810 (!), Grading permit $300 (on a flat lot), Drainage review $350 (huh?).+ health district fees + electrical permitTotal $7027.50 (so far)
*Perhaps you can apply the principle of the thing with a larger tool. I agree the next person to sand would be in for a surprise.
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Yesterday, January 9, 2002, was a major milestone in the little remodeling project I've been struggling to get started since November of 1999. After $2000 to a structural engineer and $2000 to the city of LA, I finally have a building permit. And I've spent 10% of the budget getting it.
What is most amazing to me is the totally unnecessary stuff they're making me do. I'm going to have to tear off a perfectly good recently installed roof in order to sister the existing 2x6 rafters with 2x8's, and to sister the 2x4 ceiling joists with 2x6's. The attic and roof are not involved at all in the changes I want to make. The building has been there since 1926, and none of the beams in question have deflected at all. Downstairs they want me to put 2x6 blocking between the girders and sub floor, with three nails into each block face nailed from the top. This means either pulling up the T&G oak to face nail thru the sub floor, or just forgetting about trying to make it look good and leaving big ugly nail heads all over the oak.
I'm trying to remember the four phases of dealing with a Los Angeles building permit.... was it denial, anger, bargaining and acceptance?
-- J.S.