While at the shop picking up two saws and a drill from repairs, I got to talking with the shop owner about the sad state of most of our modern “pro” power tools.
He agreed that there’s too much cheapness in today’s tools (and that DW is w/ rare exception, junk), but said that it would cost too much to produce tools as robust and reliable as 20 years ago.
I looked down on the counter and there was a Skil 77 on his table that looked older than me. I asked, what’s wrong with that? He just said, “the cord is worn out–that’s it.”
I told him that I’d gladly pay $300 for a saw that I knew wouldn’t wear out six months down the road. He replied that a lot of contractors feel the same way. Unfortunately, he said, too many “consumers” think they need a “pro” tool, but don’t want to pay the “pro” price, so the tool manu’s just make all their tools a compromise.
On the upside, he gave the names of a few places in town that sold pro tools to pros only, those who actually are willing to pay for quality and not some useless swanky “features”.
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Replies
My future great grandson will one day be abusing my Hilti tools. That is the one brand of tools, with cords on them, that I have any hope of passing on - Unless of course I inherit my grandfather's Skill 77 on of these days.
Plus, Hilti and Bosch have such good-smelling cords! Reminds me of doing industrial electrical work.
Forrest
I've thought the same thing. I worked in a nuke power plant, where the cable vaults and switchgears were filled with miles of electrical cable, and I get a hit of reminescence of the place everytime I pull out the Boschhammer.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Amen on the HILTI. Haven't tried the new circular saw. Anyone got an opinion on it. I agree that DW has gone downhill. I have the new belt sander. Had my old one for 10 years(DW430). Got the new DW433 and had to take it back 3 times before I got one that made it through a week of heavy use. I'm sure that one will puke in no time. FESTOOL is the other awesome tool maufacturer. Bosch and PC have turned into homeowner tools. PC is mostly junk now too. Look for the MADE IN CHINA stickers on your new PC. SAD
The Hilti saw is made by PC .A Hilti rep dropped one off for a 5 day test drive , laborer cut off the cord , when I opened up the saw handle it looked familiar so I opened up my PC and all the castings and part numbers match up the only difference is the 'overhead' exhaust. the saw is ok just red.Rik
Whoa brother, you just said a mouthful there.
Let's run that by everyone once again to make sure they get it.
be cheers
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
> The Hilti saw is made by PC
What's the PC model number? Could it be that the 325 I just bought is also a Hilti?
-- J.S.
John
The Hilti WSC 167 is made by PC. That's the one I bought for my EZ system. Couldn't find a damn saw in all of Austin TX with a break so I bought that saw at HD.
I'm going to get the real deal as soon as I'm done with this project that I'm working on, the Hilti http://www.hilti.com/holcom/modules/prcat/prca_navigation.jsp?OID=-9439
Dino said that it's made for the guide system in Europe. It has dust collector, which I didn't think I needed but have reconsidered.
Doug
I cant keep up with you guys . <G>
You bought a Hilti made by PC but you are going to buy what when the job is done ? Or am I already screwed up?
EDIT . Ah you are going to buy the real Hilti becuse it also has a dust deal on it . I thought all pcs did ???
Tim
Edited 2/10/2006 11:25 pm by Mooney
Tim
I don't know if all PC's have dust collectors, never really paid any attention to that.
This Hilti saw is OK but I notice once in a while the break doesn't work and it doesn't have a dust collector, Even though it's made by PC, I suppose Hilti specs it without the dust port.
I didn't know when I bought the saw that it was made by PC, not that that would have swayed me either way. I couldn't find a saw with a break anywhere in Austin or San Antonio and I was in a hurry to get going with the EZ. I should have just mounted my old reliable Milwaukee circular saw on the base and used it until I could have got the saw I really wanted. My Milwaukee saw was bought in 1973, used, and still works great but I didn't want to put the ol' girl on that slick new guide system! :)
The 255 Hilti that I showed the link to has a dust port that picks up almost all the dust, just like the Festool saws.
Doug
I thought my P C saw did pretty well with a dust bag on it . Its been a while since Ive had one on it . I really cant vizualize a vaccumn hose on a skill saw but I guess some do it .
Tim
I'm inbetween spraying doors so I caught your message.
I dont think that I would bother with a dust collector for my circular saw if I was out in the field but since I'm cutting cabinet parts out in the garage I can mount the hose up on the ceiling and let it drop down over the center of the table. This way its never in the way and I'm not filling every little portical in the garage with fine dust!
You never know whats in that damn plywood that'll kill you dead! Sorta like raid. Probably to late for me but the dust in the garage is a pain in the back side.
Doug
That's a sweet looking saw. And a build-in riving knife in a circ saw - awesome! Where ya gonna get it? Far as I can tell they only sell the red PC saws in the states (and don't even list them in Europe; and vice versa). Any idea how heavy it is?
Dino told me where I can get it but dont remember right now. I'll figure it out when the times comes to fork over the dough!
Doug
"Couldn't find a damn saw in all of Austin TX with a break."Why find one. It is easy to make you own. A 5 lb "fine adjustment tool" will quickly give any one of them a break.(Sorry the devil made me do it).
Bill
That'd probably work but repeatability is problematic in that solution!
Doug
I have inherited my grandfathers Skill Super Duty (not heavy duty) 77. He gave it to my father who was in the trades and worked it hard for about 30 years. I just replaced the brushes about a year ago and it keeps on chugging along. Concrete, metal and (of course) wood. My local service center says the new ones are great, but they are not built quite like the older ones were (of course, he says that about every old tool I drag in there for him to fix).
Was thinking along similar lines just a few days ago.
Browsing the cordless tool pack review in last months FHB, it dawned on me that the "consumers" had finally won out. I've long prefered the pistol grip style cordless drills to the "T" handles. Last time I bought a cordless drill was probably five years ago. I remember having trouble finding a pistol grip. Had to have one ordered for me as only the "T" handles were stocked anymore.
I haven't looked to purchase one....but from what I gather just browsing the aisles now and again, I'm not likely going to have much luck finding a new pistol grip when the time comes.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Jason, I have been doing carpentry full time since '72. In the arsenal I currently use are many of the tools I started with. Rockwell 315 saw, Milwaukee Sawzall, Milwaukee Screw Shooter, Rockwell 3x24 belt sander, Hilti 3/8's Hammer Drill, Milwaukee Hole Hawg right angle 1/2'' drill. I did burn out a Rockwell bayonet saw. And a B&D commercial duty 3/4 h. router. I own no Makita, nor DW. I either am the lucky one, don't abuse or use enough, or got the tools your repairman talks about. As long as I can get parts, these originals will be kept and used. I don't often buy new when the repair costs run up close to that price. Just another opinion.
Buy quality and take care of it.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Buy quality and take care of it.
I was going to respond similarly.....but working for, and often by, myself, I thought perhaps I 've an unfair advantage.
When making new tool purchases, I do much research....which often includes "tryin' it on for size".
Many of the current crop of tools I own are better than ten years old......many of them, closer to twenty.....which is about as long as I've been doin' this.
I believe I take much better care of my tools than most. So, I'm sure that accounts for much of it.
If a tool didn't come with a case....its got its own box or bag now. They see regular maintenance, and I don't abuse anything but the Sawzall. (It just seems to snicker at me and plod along.)
Overall....I'm quite happy with the quality and innovation I see out there in general.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
J, aside from lugging up and down everything to that third floor attic reno, we've got it made..............
We buy them, use them and reap the benefits of our tools. A respect not lost on the way they return the favor with performance. The few times I've worked for contractors, I've used their equipment the same way. A little respect, common sense (there it goes, rearing it's ugly head again) knowledge of what a tool can do, helps them last a long time.
Even in the hands of a conservative.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin,Ditto what you and J said. I'm a one man show most of the time, and my stuff lasts forever. I've worn out good tools, but they did a ton of work before they died. If we could bottle that "common sense" and sell it, we'd be rich...I think.Bill
Even in the hands of a conservative.
Er....that oughtta be..."Especially in the hands of a conservative".
; )
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Jason, I have been doing carpentry full time since '72. >>>>>>>>>
Cal
You relize you triggered a thought for another good thread. Go ahead...you start it.
"How do you know when you started carpentry full time" ?
Some of us actually started before we even knew we started...OK OK...not hijacking this thread...and now back to the show.....
View Image
Agree with you completely on the pistol grip/t-handle thing.....collared a tool rep on that once, he's another that claimed the t-handles are so dominant because of the DIY group. I bought a few t-handles into the shop here because it was easier, and to try them out, but I need to replace my own cordless.....I'll search high, and low, but I'm not buying a t-handle.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
"he gave the names of a few places in town that sold pro tools to pros only, those who actually are willing to pay for quality and not some useless swanky "features"."This statement implies there are manufacturers/models that are "pro" that aren't seen that often? Anyone have an idea who/what they are?if you look at the "tool sites" on the net, including the ones who are "pro" orientated they all seem to have the same stuff. Couple of manufacturers that you don't see often are Metebo and Festol(SP). are there others?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Protool, a subsiduary of Festool, is possibly another "pro" brand
A good example of this is Milwaukee. Go to Home Depot and look at the 14.4v cordless drill they sell. It's got a plastic chuck and a belt-clip. Now go to a "pro" store or simply look through a Milwaukee catalog. You'll find a Milwaukee 14.4v drill that looks similar, but the difference is the all-metal chuck and no belt-clip (a gimmicky thing). It also feels a little beefier in your hand. I have the heavier-duty drill (found it on amazon.com), and the difference is night and day -- but I paid more for the privilege.
Here's a tip -- DON'T buy your tools from Home Depot if you're a pro and want a really great-quality tool. Go to a contractor store or one of the better web-sites (i.e. toolbarn.com, etc.).
TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
I have some of those vintage tools yep they last, weigh a ton and shock the #### out of you when wet. My Makita tablesaw the little 8" job must be 20 years old and still runs great. Some of the new tools are good, a lot are junk. I agree manufacturer's have been driven by DIYer's, HD and Lowes. I paid a couple hundred for my Panasonic cordless drill which is 7 or 8 years old. My neighbor wants something for the light weekend work and buys a Firestorm for $65 and lasts him about a year doing weekend projects.
What gets me is you roll a tool over to see made in China. Then we wonder why the trade deficit is $201.6 billion with China. It's getting harder to find good quality tools to buy, might have to take up a new profession.
Jeff
I'm aware of manufacturers making models specificly for certain outlets.there should be some differnt model designation, even if only one letter.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I've been abusing my 12v Makita forever. I use it less now because of my impact driver. I still use it as a 2nd drill when needed.
By far, the most ergonomic drill to use.
View Image
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It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Edited 2/8/2006 2:04 pm ET by dustinf
Funny thing about the "T" handles. I recall folks makin' a big "ta-do" about the fact that you could stand them up when you placed them down. Seemed lying a tool down on its side was a big deal.
Well....since purchasing an impact driver, I suddenly find myself doing just that....standing it up when I place it down.
And then knocking it over and off the bench.
A problem I never had in the past.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
since purchasing an impact driver, I suddenly find myself doing just that....standing it up when I place it down.
And then knocking it over and off the bench."
That's why they call 'em impact drivers.
~Peter
Vatoe Ape had nothing to do with the Seattle-Tacoma earthquake.
I had the "fortune" of inhereting a bunch of 20 year old tools from my father in law (former plumbing contractor). While indeed built to last (solid metal housings), there is NO WAY I would turn back the clock and trade in the tools I have now for the tools of yesteryear. Here's a few reasons why:1) Weight...These suckers have all metal housings. If I want a set of dumbells, I'll go to the gym. Plus what happens when you drop one of these suckers off the top of a ladder onto the concrete (or onto the new tile floor below)? I get a little buzz every time I touch the drill.2) Features. Small things that I take for granted. Like a magnesium foot or a variable speed trigger on a drill or sawzall. Like a Try starting a sawzall cut when your tool only has two speeds: shut off or balls to the wall.3) Working speed. Changing a blade or bit on these things can turn into a project that I'm about ready to sub out. Just my take, tools are better now. But if you want to talk about the music, cars, or sports of days past, that's a whole different subject.--Andy
Stuffing feathers up your azz doesn't make you a chicken, all the bells and whistles on todays tools are great but the fact is the tools are not built as well. I burnt up the Dewalt "worm drive" in 80 days nice, I go through tools like firewood, sometimes it feels like I'm bleeding money. In a few days I'll be getting my now passed on grandfathers 30 yr old Skilsaw and 10" circular saw. I wouldn't bet my shoelaces on a single tool in my truck making it another 5 years.
Tools have caught up to the rest of the manufacturing world (and yes, you can thank HGTV, Home Depot, etc..). How many telephones did your parents own, at least before Ma Bell was taken apart? How many corldess models are collecting in your garage?
Here's the catch: Who's going to give up the cordless phone with speed dial and caller ID?...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
If it's old tools you like, then I'll sell you all mine. And since they're so much better than the new tools, you wouldn't mind it I added a "old tool quality surcharge" would you? I suggest you head down to your local flea marked or swap meet. You can fill up the bed of your pickup truck with them for under $50.00. There's a reason you don't see new tools for sale anywhere, and if you do, you sure as heck can't pick them up for five bucks a piece. --Andy
Its a deal better yet I'll trade for my new shiny ones- My collection of 18v dewalt batteries that are now paperweights because after a month they won't charge, my dewalt wormdrive that only used 3 months and has become a $150 dust collector because it won't work anymore, my air compressor that lasted 8 f'en days that won't turn on any more lost the receipt and now it will cost just as much to fix it as I paid for it, my collection of quick cords from Milwaukee that are now dangling from my ceiling joists in my garage due to shorts or bad ends, my 4 Paslode framing guns all with bad O-rings in under 6 months each, Porter Cable circular saw only 3 weeks on the job and the guard is permannatly stuck open, my Hilti ramset with the barrel that blew up in my hands after 6 nails, my $450 Hilti demolition hammer that is now a 40 pound drill after a year, Makita elecric impact gun still turns on won't spin though smells like you have a bon fire in your hands too 8 months old, 3 trim guns that bend over and jam nails every time you try to put on crown molding works great on every thing but wood, Bosch cordless drills that have burnt up gears, my 6 week old router that I have to clamp the cord to the base just right or it shuts off when it wants. Porter Cable roofing gun blown seals after 4 months, my 10 yr old paslode roofing gun haven't had a single problem with.
I've gone through three $150 or more circular saws in a year and guess what bails me out when they die, my dead Uncles Milwaukee Worm drive that is probably 20 yrs old.
I won't buy another cordless drill tired of all the BS that comes with them, I use a 10 year old corded Milwaukee and an old $4 Black and Decker professional that is god knows how old. You want to be a builder well heres a great starter set for you I frame 20-25 houses a year with a four man crew and this what you get to go through on a daily basis, pretty bad when I have the tool salesman shows up to my jobsite just as often as lumber deliveries.
I think the tool manufacturers have found the right guy to send the dregs of the litter to. Do you have a little black cloud that is permanently over your head? Have you hired some guy who used to destroy tools for a living? Hard to believe anyone having that much poor performance. I guess you have been getting a lot of other guys fair share of lemons, we all thank you. Sympathy for you brother.
My DW batteries seem to last about three yrs or so, only DW cordless drill I smoked is one of the little homeowner grade (non black handle overlay) 12v that I forced to drill a almost dull 5/8 auger through three layers of 50 year old top plate and that was with a battery that was almost dead. Asked a bit too much of it, put motor into meltdown.
Wow!
Someone on your crew is gettin' a huge kick outta whatchin' you freak everytime a tool dies.
I'd find out who it is and fire him. Or at least make him buy his own sh!t.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
LOL man! You sound like me some days!
When I was just starting out (alone) I cussed b/c I couldn't afford the tool I "really needed". Now that I've got two or three helpers and a full-time framing career, it seems like I have to buy everything two at a time, and that I'm always fixing something, or taking something to the shop.
Some things are amazing too--in spite of all the new saws they've come out with recently, the oldest. most used (and loved) saws I have are the Makitas, which are still using the same basic design as 10 years ago. Or the Hitatchi guns--same as 20 years ago.
Maybe it's like the Chevy 350 block--in spite of all the new, there's still timeless designs LOL!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Stuffing feathers up your azz doesn't make you a chicken
*chuckle*
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Plus if you leave a metal body tool sitting in the sun, you can have fried fingers for lunch!
Im gonna have to agree with you again.
Where do I start ?
I also inherited some tools from Dad.
Who wants to carry a frieght train belt sander ? I dont . All its good for is floors cause its a strain to hold it up running sideways .
Ive got a Skill work drive and it sits on the shelf most of the time . Like a friend of mine said , becuse I know better.
How about those old line of sight transits? Took 20 minutes to set it up and then ya had to wonder if ya needed to check it with a water level. Sometimes we did.
Single speed drills , what a pos unless they are in 1/2 inch.
I remember the first battery makita battery drills being a god send , but they were weak , we just didnt know it . It would be a joke to try to wire a house using one using 5/8s auger bits. But a new 18 or 24 will do it .
The variable speeds changed the industry plus the clutches.
The Makita skill saw is 100 bucks and favored my many although they are not held in high esteem in reviews. Id rather replace one a year that have to carry a heavy saw.
Ive got an old recip saw that takes an allen wrench to change the blade and you better have the chuck just right or its not going in . BS! I bought a quick change balde thats orbital that cuts circles around it and does blade changes in a second and back again which is needed in remodeling . I bought the DW 6 pack and recieved the reciop saw with the lever change blade system. What a tool! Outstanding for making a few cuts and laying it down . Of course I dont drop floor systems with it but its a monster at cutting loose plumbing and cutting PVC sched 40 , 3 and 4 inch.
I got the battery jig saw and what a nice tool for finishing cuts that a skill saw wont and no fooling with a cord cause ya dont need one but a second at a time . Of course if I am cutting out a sink hole I lift the electric. But I dont want to plug and unplug an electric all day. The the new electrics will zip through 2x12s. Try that with an old B&D.
4 1/2 inch angle grinders . A carp didnt even carry one in the old days ! Now I carry battery and electric . Seems I need to carry 4 of them. Well, 2 are 4s.
Yall can have those old tools, thanks but no thanks. Its about making money and letting the tools make it . I think tool replacement is the cost of doing business becuse the new tools make more money or they should . If they dont its not their fault. They simply do things better with improved technology. Maybe they are pushed to hard with crews using them. Im a single user and Im quite happy. Sharp blades and bits help a bunch as well as thin kerfs.
Tim
Edited 2/10/2006 1:56 pm by Mooney
Thank you for the confession! I thought I was a klutz for doing that. Now, I lay it on its side to avoid doing that.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
I find often times "improvements" like that often lead to unforeseen problems that didn't exist to begin with.
Even with something as seemingly simple as a snow shovel.
I ran out to buy one when the ergonomic models (good for the back) came out. Didn't take long to realize that grabbing it down low to lift those heavy loads was suddenly difficult. So now the only thing that ergonomically beneficial shovel is good for, is lifting small, lightweight loads. Do I really need to protect my back from such?
Hardly used in my garage if ya want it.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
" Seemed lying a tool down on its side was a big deal."Well, yah!
All dem electrons spill out.;)" ...knocking it over and off the bench."or face down with a philips bit stabbing a hole into the surface it sits on...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Since I started working alone my tools seem to last forever. In almost 3 years the only tool that I've had to service is a Makita router that I was abusing. Also, a Porter Cable laminate trimmer that puked, and it was 15 years old.
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It's only satisfying if you eat it.
are you going come off them names.
Yah, BB, thery were Bay City Tool, Butler & Co., and Ram Tool.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
It's not just tools - it's everything. The U.S. has become a disposable society. Not by choice, but by necessity. Try and find somebody other than Maria on Sesame Street to repair a toaster. Now try to find a toaster that will last more than a couple of years. I have a sewing machine a decade or two older than me. I took it into the shop for some maintenance and the owner asked me - how much do you want to keep this machine? I asked how much it cost to have it repaired - $70 (? to replace a belt and fiddle with the tensioner?). How much is a brand new POS? $200 for a machine that won't last a year. I'll fix my old workhorse thank you, even at those cutthroat rates.
Seems yer caught in a bit of a "catch 22".
Not willing to pay for a machine that'll last for years....nor to pay someone to repair the one that did.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Not willing to pay for a machine that'll last for years....nor to pay someone to repair the one that did.
Eloquently said.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
here you go. I've got the old version of this drill, and have been abusing it for 6 years. Batteries are still as strong as the day I got it. Great drill. Will test your willingness to pay for quality though...:)
http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=2&prodid=564180
Will test your willingness to pay for quality though...
Honestly.....I've never had a problem paying for quality. If its a tool that is going to see regular use, I'm willing to pay what they're charging.
Looks like a nice drill. Have you been pleased with its performance at that cost?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I've been very happy with it. Would love to get the new model, but the old one just works to good. I bought a makita about a year after the festo and had to replace it last summer (batteries) and the festo gets used more often. I also like the ergonomics of the festo compared to the makitas and dewalts. and its 15 minute charger for those days when I've forgotten to recharge.
Not willing to pay for a machine that'll last for years....nor to pay someone to repair the one that did.
? I did pay to repair the one that did. In spite of the fact that he tried to talk me into junking my fine old machine and buying a new hunk of plastic junk.
Sorry aimless....I totally misread your post....I thought you said you were going to attempt repairs on your own.
I am wondering though.....how much were you expecting to pay?
While sewing machine repairs are not something I do, I'd assume a couple hours labor plus parts...(which I'm guessing may not be easy to find for a model that age.)
70 bucks doesn't seem that outlandish to me.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I think he spent about 20 minutes on it. My reason for this estimate is that he didn't have it done on the day he said he was going to. We showed up with slip in hand, he disappeared into the back room and emerged with it 15 minutes later. I'm allowing 5 minutes for lifting it onto the shelf when we dropped it off :)
We showed up with slip in hand, he disappeared into the back room....
Dontcha just love that?!
Had that happen when I purchased a cap for my last truck. After leaving my truck with them for the day, I showed up ten minutes before closing....guy at the counter looked surprised as hell to see me.
Took 'em all of ten minutes to clamp the cap on.
Funny thing was....the clamps they used cost more than the ones I had paid for, but because they were in a hurry, they didn't have much of a choice but to give them to me at the lower price.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Tell me about it...I've bought two coffee makers in two years...and they weren't the Wal-Mart specials either.
I'd almost be willing to pay for a commercial unit just so I wouldn't have to replace it every year!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
It makes my back hurt just thinking of lugging around all those old heavy and underpowered tools. :-)
I'm glad they're back in "the good old days."
Coworker brags up his old milwakee sawzall and how it's lasted him 20 years. It is built well, but the old underpowered, non-orbital model doesn't cut half as fast as a new one. As long as he's getting paid by the hour he'll do fine. Personally, I can't afford to use something like that. Same for the old heavy drills, belt sanders and grinders that last forever.
Besides, the repair guys would all sit around like the matag man if we all shopped at pawn shops.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'm kinnda with IdahoDon on this one.
I have an old Skil Worm Drive that I got from my father after it's second rebuild, sometime around 1982. It still works just fine and I even use it on occasion. It's been rebuilt three times since I got it.
One day when I was just an employee of someone else, the company generator was having a hard time turning my Skill, I got fed up and stopped on the way home and picked up a new (at that time) DeWalt. The one with the fancy ball joints and the nice big shoe.
I was in heaven for some time with that saw until I picked up a Porter-Cable one day. Light, easy to whip around, cuts nice and comes in right and left hand.
My worm old Skill is still a nice piece but when it comes to cutting a bastard hip for a 6000sqft house, I'd rather lug that Porter-Cable around all day than that Skill.
Were I to make a living as a Carpenter again, and more specifically a framer, I would rather buy two Porter-Cables a year than lug that Skill around all day.
Just be careful, if you wrap your cord around the Porter-Cable when you put it in the truck, you'll eventually cut it off.
DW is junk? Hmm, I have put my Dewalt miter saw through miles ofr material for the last dozen or so years, every day use, and it's still going strong. Same thing with my Makita 8" table saw...that's 18 years old...going strong. I don't know if these qualify as the junk you're talking about, but I'm satisfied with it.
There is a lot of crap out there, but not everything is junk. You have to really research it and find what is good. Also, I take care of my tools.
Dewalt moved most of their production off the Eastern Shore of Maryland and out of Fayetteville, NC. Those same facilities now reside in Mexico and China. This occurred within the last five years. But don't blame Dewalt. They only do what their customer desires. Talk to the folks at Home Depot and Lowes...their largest customers. They drive the quality of these tools. The engineers have to work within cost guidlines. Once they develop a working tool it is time to engineer cost reductions. This often mostly consists of material changes and deductions.
If Home Depot and Lowes thought they could sell a DW framing nail gun for $400 dollars they would. The fact is they feel they can only sell them for $250. So Home Depot says to DW...if you want to sell your nail gun in our store it will have to cost us X dollars so we can sell it at $250.
You cannot blame DW, PC, Mil., Bosch, Delta, etc for poor quality. You have to blame capitalism. Market forces drive the lack of quality.
Simple analogy. Everyone of you to a "T" claims you need to charge a certain price for your quality workmanship. If your only choice was to lower your prices in order to maintain market share would your quality remain the same? Hell NO! None of you ever miss a chance to scream about the old addage.."You get what you pay for". Companies like DW and PC are no different. They still need to make their money and sell their products. In order for them to be financially successful they have to sacrifice quality because quality = higher costs. You are no different.
It is not changing so either get used to it or get the handy randy's to pony up a extra $50 bucks per tool so you can enjoy trouble free use for more than a year.
First, I think that how the tool is being used, has alot to do with how long the tool will last. My tools are only used by me or my 1 employee that treats them as if they were his own (I'm lucky). For this reason my tools last me a long time. I also teach high school Construction Technology classes where those same tools offen only last a year or less. The students are hard on them no matter how much I stress the importace of taking care of them.
Second, I think that to say one tool manufactor is junk and one is better is as foolish as the Ford Chevy Dodge Argument. I own many different tools made by a wide verity of companies. WHen shoping I am looking for a quality tool that has the features that I like for what I can afford. I could care less what the name is on the sticker. I know guys who won't buy DeWalt (they call it "Default") I love my Dewalt Compond Sliding Miter saw, but that dosn't mean I will only buy Dewalt. I try to reseach what features are avalaible and read what experiences you guys on BT have had as much as I can about a tool before I buy so that I have as few bad experiences as posible. I also know that not all tools are going to be perfect. I got a Makita worm drive that lasted 2 days, retured it and the new one they gave me is still working great after several years.
Jer, I agree with you that not ALL DW stuff is junk---their miter saws rank as #1 in simple, robust quality, IMO. Just about everything else, junk.
Hey, every mfgr's got their good and bad.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Hey, every mfgr's got their good and bad.Jason I agree whole heartely--I think about my tool inventory and I have Bosch, Dewalt, Makita and every other.Would anyone trade their Makita 3.25 power planer, or their DW miter saw,I know each company makes a complete line but that doesn't mean they are all up to the same level,I have intentonaly avoid the battery game and have Makita impact and Boschs drill--I buy the best (for me) from each company and take care of my stuff. Then again I am the only user so it is miles easier to make sure they do their job without being to abused.And the tool debate goes on.......Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
<Would anyone trade their Makita 3.25 power planer, or their DW miter saw,>
I know I wouldn't. Have them both and they are two of my most trusted power tools, along with my Bosch D handled jig saw, and my Milwaulkee super sawzall.
Whats a 3.25 power plane ?
Tim
3.25" merely referrs to the width of the cut. Nothing more than a hand held power planer. Mine's been with me through constant use for about 15 years now. She nipped the end of my two left fingers pretty badly once about 10 years ago, but that was stupidity on my part and I still love the tool.
heh heh
Suddenly the makita guys in the company think tank are scurrying around trying to find out why there was a such a sudden surge in sales of their 3.25 power plane.
be plain, jane.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Here comes a story;
Theres a builder here that does the majarioty of the work. He has a remod crew too . Hes a tool nut and a very nice friend . He likes to trade tools . The other day [actually its been a while ] he asked me if Id trade the old Rockwell trim saw that I have to him. I wasnt thinking at the time but I remember me telling him when I bought my Dewalt hand planner. He said I could have got his makita for a song . I asked why and he said he never uses it . Ive never understood why.
be a trade in the works,....
Tim
Anyone who's been around this trade a while will tell you "contractor grade" just means "cheat crap".
I was going to comment but I realize that my worm drive is a Skil 825. What would I know about a newfangled '77? Out of my league. I wouldn't mind it being about 10 pounds lighter though. Everything is relative.