advice on building wooden storm windows?
i need to build some storm windows for my house this summer
LARGE storm windows—–4 of them 55w, by 73 H——and 1 of them 73 by 73
with windows this size weight is a big factor
thinking about 2 wood species——and wanting either tentative approval—-or suggestion of another species.
Redwood.—- i have used this to make exterior moldings and widow sills——– in the past here——— found an old,dusty stack of dark, clear heartwood in an older lumberyard( should have bought it all)—–a few years later same source had redwood—— clear but a lot of lighter colored,I suppose sapwood.
Cedar———after the redwood source became a bit disappointing—–found a source for some nice cedar——which i have used for exterior window sills( Also an older lumberyard—-very nice. they tell me THEY have stopped stocking the redwood for the same reason I noticed at the other place)—-the cedar is MUCH harder than i would have expected cedar to be—harder and incredible ( to me), number of growth rings per inch—-and is absolutely clear and almost vertical grain
leaning towards the cedar—–not wanting to make a mistake
located in N/E ohio—–if you suggest an alternative speicies I am happy to consider it—but it may not be available here
BTw—– the old windows these will replace were done with a cope and stick bit set——these did NOT hold up. bottom rail 3″, top rail and stiles 2″
planning to up the bottom rail to 4″ and the top and sides to 3″ and mortice and tennon the 4 outside corners.
Of course i would appreciate any input,
thanks–Stephen
Edited 6/2/2007 6:55 am ET by Hazlett
Replies
The guy that built the old storms probably didn't have the advantage of the modern glues that we use today. Urethane like Gorilla glue would be my first choice at the joints.
Cedar / Redwood is a good choice. And since you know the difference between the heartwood (read that as old growth) and the younger part of the tree, use the harder, denser wood for the bottom rails. I think you're on track by simplifying and expanding the style and rail width. Mortise and attention joinery provides a large glue surface and will stay locked if you pin them with dowels. Say two 1/4" at each joint staggered.
Stickin' my neck out a little farther, I assume you are going to paint them. Two coats of sanding sealer, paying attention to the end grain before you prime & paint will add to the life span.
Also, don't be stubborn about installing them. Find an extra pair of hands.
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Building as thou art paranoid never harmed anyone.
chris----actually----it hasn't been so much the bottom rail rotting out----as the bottom ends of the 2 stiles--end grain soaking up water
thank you, stephen
I'm considering making some too, and I'm thinking about miter joints with biscuits, specifically to cover the end grain.
That'd be my LAST choice. Aestectically, strength, to name two reasons why. A simple Mortice and tennon is all ya need, if yer worried about the endgrain sitting in a puddle, make the rails longer than the stiles, problem solved.
Unless your stiles and rails are pretty wide, the glass groove cuts into the miter availabilty surface...an off set haunched tennon can solve some of that weakness.Parolee # 40835
Treat it with a Paintable, Water Replant, Protectant first.The US Forest Products Lab has some picture of exterior window casing. One treated and one not treated before paint. And the untreated one show paint failure at the bottom of the side casing where it hits the sill and the end grain can soak up moisture.Some of the Jasco products meet that description.They consists of an anti fugual chemcial (typically a coper or tin oxide) and wax to seal the end grain. But the percentage of wax is low enough that it does not affect paint.And what about cypress lumber? Never used it so I don't know how strong it is.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Cypress can be a PITA to work with. More splintery than fir and it is harder to find dry instead of green.But if you can find it and work it, it is a good choice to do the job.
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harder to find dry instead of green.
That must be one of those regional things, I can walk into three or four places around here and get as much as 2 or 3 thousand board foot of it on any givin day, but I doubt I could find 10 bd. ft of it still green.
We got 6000 bd ft of it out in a trailer waiting to be made into sidding for a lake house that were going to be doing this summer.
I hate the splinters from that stuff, tiny little things, and they sting!
Doug
I really would consider CVG Doug. Fir for the long haul. Ya may have dig around to find it, but it is well worth the search.
Parolee # 40835
Cope and stick with a slip tenon would be best. If you don't have the tools to do that then get som long SS screws and screw and plug em from the sides.
I would take the cedar or red cedar over the redwood any day.
But for that size, I lean to CVG Doug Fir
Another issue will be your fasteners and wind resistance at that size.
What is the large one covering? Can you break into smaller glass sizing with muntins to add support?
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Piffen, all the windows this size are divided into 4 panes of glass with muntins.
any way i make 'em---these are gonna be heavy windows-------but i am moderately concerned about weight and rot resistance on CVG doug fir-----don't know much about it------other than I have some 2x12 scaffolding planks that are HEAVY, LOL.
Stephen
Most of your weight is going to be in theglass. The difference between the fir and the cedar might be a couple pounds on the big one is all. clear fir has decent rot resistance if you get close grained wood. Used to be the prevalent decking choice for porches around here but I went to IPE` because a higher percentage is wide grained and facce cut instead of true vertical grain. Used to be easy to get at least 8-10 rings per inch buyt now 50% is too wide faster growth with some sapwood that will rot too fast, but if you can find good stock, and paint it, these storms will outlast you. Remember too re rot resistance, you will be taking them down and storing them in a clean dry place every summer. The only time they will be getting wet is in winter. The micro-organisms that eat wood ( rot) need warmth to grow. Winter is a cold time of year.Most of the wood storms I have seen, bought, or handled have beeen pine, and the only ones I have ever seen rot were left sitting on damp dirt in a shed or crawlspace for years instead of being used on the windows and stored properly in summer.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How about the permanent windows? Have you considered making new sash, or modifying the old sash, for insulated glass?
the permanent windows are steel casement, 36 panes of glass-------and are pretty much remaining as-is.
stephen
the permanent windows are steel casement, 36 panes of glass-------and are pretty much remaining as-is.
Stephen,
If the existing windows are casements, wouldn't it be possible to fit two storm sash into each opening to sort of mirror the look of the primary sash? You could mill a half lap where the two join up to stop water from entering there. Anyway, this would definitely make them a lot lighter.
I actually have quite a bit of experience with reproduction storm sash in the Seattle area. The small shops I work with use CVG Doug fir exclusively -- it works quite well in our chronically damp climate! However, I know that your climate is much different, so other species might work just as well for you, too.
I very strongly support your idea of using mortise and tenon construction. It's a near bullet proof way of doing things, and if you're making the sash yourself, it's not going to take that much longer than other methods.
In your initital post, I don't think you mentioned the species of the existing (failed) storm sash.
Based on my experience here, the 2" stiles and top rail, 3" bottom rail should be completely adequate. If you really want to make these storm sash rugged, you can use 2x stock and build them just like primary wood sash. Since your existing windows are steel casement, I really have no idea how they were trimmed out. But with traditional wood windows, there is a 1/2" wide x 3/4" deep screen/storm rabbet built into the window frames. If you rabbet the top and sides of a 1-3/8" storm sash, it will nest nicely into this screen/storm rabbet.
Also, we fit the storm sash to have a strong 1/16" of clearance all around to allow for expansion, etc. We also leave this amount at the bottom for drainage, etc. If you do the same, it will keep the end grain of the stiles from continually sitting in water.
Hope that info helps!
Edited 6/3/2007 2:51 am ET by Ragnar17
Ragnar17-- thank you for your design suggestions---VERY helpfull as it has started me thinking a bit.
If I might trouble you----later this morning i will try to post some pictures of the EXISTING largest storm , in place.
Existing storms are 1-1/8" thick--and fit into a rabbet formed by the exterior casing and the jamb.
i had not considered the 2x stock---- initially assuming the thickness would then stand proud of the casing------but in fact that problem is easilly solved by rabbeting the sash so that it interlocks and nests with the existing stop-----sweet system------would not have occured to me untill AFTER the windows were made---thank you !
at any rate---will try to post some pictures later this AM----as that might be helpfull for folks making design suggestions,
thanks again,
Stephen
that problem is easilly solved by rabbeting the sash so that it interlocks and nests with the existing stop-----sweet system
Yeah, it is a sweet system. :) The rabbet really helps to naturally cut down on air infiltration, too.
We typically cut a slight angle on the shoulder of the rabbet to help ease it in place. Sort of like a "draft angle" -- about 3 or 5 degrees or something like that. The millwork guy has a shaper knife dedicated to that purpose, but it can be accomplished with a tapered router bit or a jig on a router base, too.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.
Regards,
Ragnar
ragnar--------------
if you don't mind----
if i make those storms for the opening which are 55x73-1/2
VERY roughly-------- i make a pair---each 27-1/2 x 73-1/2-----and I put one pane of glass covering roughly the bottom 12 panes of the casement window then an intermediate smaller rail and a pane covering the top 6 panes ?????
I know I will ha ve to figure out the meeting of the center stiles---so they overlap/interlock properly without one visually being wider than the other
right track on that????
thank you,
Stephen
VERY roughly-------- i make a pair---each 27-1/2 x 73-1/2-----and I put one pane of glass covering roughly the bottom 12 panes of the casement window then an intermediate smaller rail and a pane covering the top 6 panes ?????
The 1:2 ratio between the height of the glass measure of the upper sash to lower sash was common in the 1910s and 1920s. A simple 1:1 was also common, and a 40/60 split was also used sometimes. My hunch is that for the size above, the 40/60 split will look best. You'll just have to draw it up and see what looks best. Keep in mind that it's important to keep the same height dimension for the glass measure for the upper lite on ALL your sash, so see what height fits best on the entire house before making a final decision.
I know I will have to figure out the meeting of the center stiles---so they overlap/interlock properly without one visually being wider than the other
There's more than one way to skin this cat, but here's a sketch of one possibility:
View Image
You just cut a little kerf to obtain symmetry. A bead can also be used to make it a little more polished. An entirely different approach would be to use an astragal.
Edited 6/4/2007 2:10 pm ET by Ragnar17
when using a single sash per opening-----a little turn button deally holds the storms in place---several on top and both sides.
If I use a pair of sash per opening-----sash only held in place top and one side per sash?-----do I some how fasten the 2 meeting stiles together?????
thank you,
stephen
Stephen,
If you go with the half-lap configuration that I sketched in the previous post, the turn buttons will work there, too. They will end up trapping the adjacent sash together, almost like a tongue and groove layout.
I agree with piffin. I make quite a few storms and reproduction sash. Always have used pine and never had a problem. Don't go with a cope and stick joint, use a traditional wedged and pined through mortise well glued. Most of the sash I see with problems are becouse someone forgot the paint. Don't forget primer and paint but only after the frame has been fitted to the window, otherwise the frame might grow too much to fit.
Edited 6/2/2007 10:39 pm ET by harryhandsaw
I made some storms out of Western red cedar (clear) for my own house about 15 or so years ago. These particular windows stay on year-round, and they are on the worst weather side of the house.
They've held up fine. I primed them with an alkyd primer, followed by two coats of latex (all Ben Moore).
Nonetheless, I think Piffin is right about the Doug Fir. The wood is harder, and over time will stand up better to scraping, repainting. The problem is, I find it very difficult to get quality material around here. I can get clear, vertical grain, but it is all new growth stuff -- big growth rings, and a far cry from the old growth fir used years ago.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood,
the paint directions are appreciated----as luck would have it they match EXACTLY---down to the brand even of what I have been doing on the exterior trim and have been doing on some smaller storms I built for here.
curiously--- i have been using flat exterior paint,intentionally-----as I NEVER want the house to look freshly painted-----rather ---want it to look always continuosly maintained----like it was painted 2-3 years ago--not last week,LOL.----also the flat paint is perfect for touch-up.
actually the one biggest window----will be installed and stay installed for it's entire life----NOT changed seasonally---- i may make that one out of the cedar ---as the softness will be less of an issue and the rot resistance a PLUS. the Cedar i have counts 21 rings per inch-----pretty deep red in color and hard enough--- I can barely dent it with a thumb nail if I REALLY lean on it.
thank you,
stephen
With cedar that good since you already have it, thaatis probably what I would use if it has strngth as well as the hardness.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Unless we're using a composite, cedar is the wood used for a lot of exterior trim around here -- mainly because that's what's available.I had always used an alkyd primer myself on cedar, but a couple of years ago, a client "challenged" me on whether or not that was the way to go. so I called the tech people at BM, Behr, and SW -- and they all recommended an alkyd primer for cedar, followed by two coats of a compatible latex. So I feel confident in that system, based as it is on my own experience and the advice of experts.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Stephen,
The house I grew up in had/has mahogany screens and storm sash. I know the stuff costs, but you don't need that much, and the labor is far more costly, even if you do it yourself. The mahogany is strong, stable, rot-resistant. As Piffin said, the weight is in the glass.
I add my vote for mortise and tenon joints with urethane glue.
Bill
Bill,
The last time I priced CVG fir, it was a bit MORE than mahogany. I think your suggestion of considering mahogany may be a good one. Unfortunately, I don't have any direct experience with mahogany to know how it performs outdoors. Also, I imagine it's important to know what "flavor" of mahogany to use: African, Honduran, Phillipine?
Honduran. The others are pseudo-mahoganies.Bill
Not so. ANY Swieteinia ( SP) is a mahogany. Macrophylla is just one.Parolee # 40835
Even when it is a Shorea?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Genus not species.Parolee # 40835
That is the genus.http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/janqtr/16cfr250.3.htm
http://www.woodfinder.com/woods/lauan.phphttp://www.woodfinder.com/woods/lauan.php
.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You are correct. I only gave the name of the one with wide commercial availability. If you can find Cuban mahogany...BUY IT! It is reputed to be the ultimate variety for woodwork.Bill
Stephen - I have two windows app. the size of your smaller ones that have removable storm windows that are exchanged for screen windows as the season demands - and you are right, they are heavy - and awkward to handle - a 73X73 would be near impossible for one person to deal with, I'd wager -
you live in a soggy climate and I'm sure you see a lot of rotted out wooden windows - as another poster has suggested, clearances, particularly at the bottom, are key in keeping the frame from getting soggy - make sure the storm window does not set on the sill, so water can drain and the area can dry -
I'd hesitate to make the frame as wide as you propose, unless those dimensions complement the regular sash -
one option for species that has not been mentioned is black walnut - stronger than either cedar or redwood, I'd guess it would compare favorably with VGF in strength and exceed it in rot resistance - if you have a local source it shouldn't be anymore expensive than the other options -
regards - D
David,
black walnut?----interesting choice----and one I clearly would not have considered on my own.
as luck would have it---i have some--------but not enough
fortuneately---- i CAN get more from the same source-------will think very carefully about this----------it's an initially appealing idea( wondering if anybody will shoot you down?)
thank you,
Stephen
My personal experience is that black walnut is not particularly rot resistant, nor does it have great structural strength. Better suited to gun stocks and furniture.
Don't know where you are, but if I were doing this around here, I'd get cypress or white oak. (White oak, no NOT red not red no not ever for outside.)
We used white oak for our screen porch, which GETS WEATHER, and it is doing very well, thank you.
Steven--
The storm sashes I built for that article (same issue as your valley flashing article) were clear white pine. That's what I use for most exterior trim up here. Works fine with either stain or paint. I haven't had a sash even look like it's gonna rot out either here or at a client's place.
I build them out of 4/4 stock planed to 7/8 (instead of the usual 6/4 at 1-3/8). Saves weight and could eliminate the need to rabbet the sashes back into the case stops.
Take a look at my article to see how to set up the slot cutters on your cope & stick set so you get a rabbet for the glass instead of a dado.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The storm sashes I built for that article (same issue as your valley flashing article)
Article? Articles? Did I miss a post here or something?
About 3 months ago. Dino has a very nice article on building storm sashes in FH.
Thanks Bryan. I'll have to look for the article.
Since Dino's profile says he's "prehistoric" I'll have to tease him (and you) about misuing the plural of "sash".
You guys should know better. ;)
The clip below is from a 1910 catalog.
View Image
Can you e-mail me the full ad? I'd love to look at it.
Bryan,
Here's the full page of the catalog in full resolution.
I really recommend this book, which is simply a reprint of the Sears Roebuck Home Builder's Catalog from 1910. It's published by Dover in softcover, so it's dirt cheap ($12 suggested retail price for 165 pages). The ISBN is 0-486-26320-7.
Dover has lots of books like this, by the way. I consider them an invaluable resource because they are snapshots in time -- in this way, one does not have to worry about a modern author's bias in "interpretation".
Here's another scan that I like. The prices (which I couldn't get into the scanner that easily) are $39 and $40 for the sideboard on the left, and $38 and $39 for the one on the right (prices are for yellow pine and oak, respectively).
FHB Issue #182, Oct/Nov 06. Steve had an article on roof valley flashing and I had one on building winter storm sash(es).
Thanks for the nudge about the plural of 'sash'. I didn't know the older usage on that one, and I like knowing that sort of thing.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
FHB Issue #182, Oct/Nov 06. Steve had an article on roof valley flashing and I had one on building winter storm sash(es).
I guess you never know who you'll run into on the net!
Congrats to both of you for publishing articles.
Although it wasn't originally intended to serve that function, BT has become a rich fishing ground for the editors at FHB in their search for authors. IIRC, that particular issue was dubbed 'The Alumni Issue' by one of the wags here.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino,
Do you have lots of experience with traditional wood sash as well? (By that, I am refering to the primary sash as opposed to the storms.)
Not as much, but I've built a few. There's less call for interior sash than storms because they don't get whacked as bad by the weather.
I don't build them much different than storms, actually. Cope & stick, usually white pine.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I don't build them much different than storms, actually.
The challenge for me is figuring out how to do the check rails on double-hung windows. Do you make the check rail out of one piece, or do you glue the "wedge" on afterward?
I'll have to look up your article when I get a chance.
I'm a glutton for punishment. I try to make everything outta one piece if it can possibly be done. At least the first time, LOL.
You oughta see the trouble I put myself through making the one-piece drawer fronts with lock dadoes for overlay drawers.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'm a glutton for punishment. I try to make everything outta one piece if it can possibly be done.
I'm assuming the storm sash article doesn't include check rail details, so mind if I ask how you do it from one piece? The specific problem I have is figuring out how to cope the check rail because the "weather stop" (i.e. the beveled part of the check rail) gets in the way.
Grabbed that issue of my shelf and reread it today during lunch. Good stuff.
Thanks. Glad you liked it.
You still lined up to come to the Fest? We're getting serious now. I gotta know how many pans of lasagna to make for lunch....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Yeah. Change me and DW to definite. Money coming this week (before the US dollar gets any weaker!).
AWWW-Right!
Do it now. The C$ rose another half cent yesterday. The bulging foreheads are predicting it'll cost $1.07 US to buy a Loonie by end of the year.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
ok, here is a picture of the existing largest window----which remains in place year round
oops, better see if i can resize that
ok here is a picture of the casement windows----these are 55x73
over all picture of the house
overall picture of the house from last fall
Don't you get bored looking at such a beautiful house when you walk up to it day after day, after day....?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffen,
i am glad you enjoy the house------it's my personal project for the next 18 years or so.
I do try to stroll down to the corner and look at it every morning before I go to work,
and in the evening my wife and I often look at it in the garden and comment that a dumb roofer and a catholic school teacher aren't supposed to live in a house like this, LOL.
several hundred people here yesterday for a high school graduation party--- i am not naturally social-----but it was loads of fun---- the house has lots of great interior spaces for parties and is big enough to seperate groups that kind of need to be kept seperate.
Off to buy some copper for a little slate and copper repair for a customer.
thanks again,
stephen
Wow -- beautiful house! Late 20s?
Seeing that, I strongly suggest that you make your storm sash in two halves so that they look like casements from the exterior.
Some people in my neighborhood have a brick Tudor something like yours, and they even went so far as to put leaded panels in the upper lite of the storm sash. From the street, you never notice that it's storm sash you're looking at. The funny thing is that the primary sash are just plain glass. In this way, they used the storm sash as an opportunity to actually improve the look of the house.
Hello Stephen,
I built a set of storm windows for my house this past winter. After researching all the available local hardwoods, as well as cedar, redwood, etc, I settled on sassafras. It is an exceptionally dimentionally stable wood with excellent rot resistance. It is readily available in NE Ohio (I get mine in Burton) and goes for $2.50 bf. I've only seen it in 4/4, but you might be able to find thicker stock by looking around. The wood was not bad to work with, a little fuzzy if you don't use sharp tools. It has an open grain much like ash or oak but is softer than both (yet harder than cedar or pine). Mine took primer and paint very well. The icing on the cake is that the sawdust smells great, kind of spicy.
Conrad
PS: The valley you replaced for me this past December is doing great. Thanks for all your help.
conrad,
do you remember where you got it from in burton?
I bought some lumber a few years ago from a hardwood supplier up that way, that is now out of business-----wonder if it was the same place?
BTW---thanks for the plug,LOL.
stephen