Age 59.. Enter the Union? Help please.
dovetail97128
| Posted in General Discussion on
All,
I am being offered a job with a respected company.
My role would be Construction site super.
They are an all union shop.
I was asked if I had a problem with becoming a union member. (Carpenters Union, not sure what local but in Or.)
My answer was “NO” I don’t
I have never been a member ( area I live and work in was very rural until recently and the union presence was essentially nil)
Job fits me, specialty buildings I have done 2 large projects in the role of site super on. Company seems very good.
Pluses?
Minuses?
Costs ?
Any input will be welcome, second interview is tomorrow am.
“Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more.”…Seneca
Replies
Unions work under different contracts in different regions.
I'm a carpenter in NY, so keep that in mind.
Everything is based on hours worked, not just your pay.
Here you need 1500 hours before you have any medical, dental, or vision benefits. Then, if you don't work enough hours in a year, you can lose them for the next year. Something to check up on.
The value of your pension, annuity, and vacation pay are based on hours. In slow years that can have a big impact on them.
There's an initiation fee (no, it doesn't go to uncle junior) of $500. Dues every 3 months of $114.( your mileage may vary ) Other fees get taken out of your money for things like political action, apprentice training, golf outings (g), etc.
Some companies will pay the initiation fee for you, some won't.
Here, a plus would be that you'd get scale plus general foreman's pay. About $38+$5 per hour plus benefits. Another plus should be getting paid for overtime.
You'll also need to read the local contract, constitution, by-laws, and work rules. Also find out if there are unwritten but long standing "work rules" that are expected to be honored on the job.
Hope some of this helps, good luck...buic
BUic,
Thanks for the reply. I know virtually nothing about the Union setup.
Have heard horror stories but generally discount them as just bitching. I don't expect to see much in the way of retirement action since I am already too old to get many years in. The bit about the 1500 hrs./yr before benefits sounds like the pits though. I am curious how it works though that a company can hire me, I enroll in the union ( I guess that is what would happen ) and I get a job before some guy in the hall. I thought it was about seniority , time not worked lately etc. I am not opposed to the concept at all, but neither do I want to sign up for something that is going to cost me in the long run . Once a member always a member? What happens if I want to go back to self employed?
Man I have so many questions and probably will have to decide tomorrow."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Let me answer what I can for you.
"horror stories"- there's good and bad in most any large group of people.
Retirement - from what I know, 5 years and you're vested. I think this is part of a federal govt. rule.
For the benifits, you'll need to ask how their plan/contract works.
You can be hired first because you're managment.
You can stop being a member anytime you want. Stop paying your dues and see how fast you'll get the boot!
As a generality, the fact that they want their super to be union is a very positive indicator to me. Being union insures a level of pay, benefits, and working conditions. It indicates that they don't plan to play games like "We'll pay you a steady weekly salary", then expect you to work unlimited hours for it.
If you want more info than this, email me your phone number and I'll call you.
[email protected] I'm up until midnight...pete
buic, Thank you for the offer, and the information. I will take the opportunity to check this company out ans see what we think of each other. I am not starving so I can take a pass if I want to . I just looked up prevailing wage for some guide as to what union scale is in this area.. It may actually be equal or a bit less than I earned per year on my last job.
that one was salary .. as I said earlier in this thread , I will work 12 hrs a day 7 days a week if I am excited about a project, so salary actually saves the company money. Hourly causes me grief cuz I can't be at work when I want to be if they limit overtime. I will see what transpires."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
So, dovetail, you going to tell us how things went, or didn't. ;-) buic
Buic, First, I want to Thank You and everybody else who posted answers/info for me to think about. Today I called and agreed to take the job . I called one of the local "locals" and trying to get info from them was quite an experience. To say I met with resistance is to put it mildly, although the woman there did finally relax a bit and give me some. New company is going to send me all the facts from the union today. What I did learn about the union locally:
Letter from new employer will open the door, 3 months dues ($90),Take an orientation class or pay $300 (my option), Benefits (insurance) start after first month plus one more recording month ) so start in July, benefits kick in Sept.
Retirement vesting takes 1000 hrs. a year/ 5000 total. ( Woman at the union first said 1000 hrs. year/5 years, I pointed out that I consider 2000 hrs. a year steady employment as minimum and she hesitated then grumbled that it would be possible in less than 5 years.) I still am not thinking that that is a factor in my planning. I managed to keep the company I was working with happy by agreeing to get a long postponed but about to start job out of the ground for them so won't start the new one until mid July. I didn't want to burn bridges with the old people if I could help it and the new company is quite agreeable to that . First project supposedly is a combination residence and winery , using a salvaged timber frame barn frame as the visible but non structural skeleton for the new building. Site is maybe 25 minutes from my house, very rural area, wine country building at it's best !
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I hope you enjoy the new job. From what you've written it sounds like a good "fit" for you.
One thing about hours. Since every benefit is based on hours, I've always had a log with job location, other info., and hours worked. I keep totals for the week and a running total for the year. Some unions are not good at keeping records. If there's ever a question of hours worked (and what's owed you) it's a good thing to have.
We've got wineries on the east end / north shore of Long Island. Most of the owners live there too. They're all pretty impressive.
Best of luck...pete
Buic, Thanks. I did learn a bit more about the 1000 hrs/ 5 years for vesting.
it is a minimum of 1000 hrs. a year with at least 5 calender years .
I misunderstood that to begin with. I also learned that I am glad to be exiting the old job when I am ... trouble on the horizon there. Thank again for you help."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
im sure the carpenters local in Portland says journey man carpenter on the book , Intrusting in Astoria780 im also a journey man pile buck and when i was in the Hackensack local 15 i was a journeyman millwright, But would not have a clue about those trades but yet my book was stamped as such. Sounds like your a good man for this job and i KNOW your gonna like it, After 3 months they teach the secret handshake >>> it tickles<<< . The only thing i did not like was starting off the morn having to sing IF I HAD A HAMMER, I mean thats just corny
I'm a union carp in western Washington. Carps here can either get their work from the hall or hunt their own. You don't have to wait your turn. If you want to vest then you should plan on staying union until you retire, otherwise if you find that you want to go back to working for yourself you can, although I'm 99% sure you can't get back in. Some people have managed somehow to toggle back and forth but I think if you get caught you'll be banned for life.
lydensden, Thanks for that input. I was thinking on this last night some. The winery type buildings here are getting larger and larger, which means more of the union companies are getting into the action. So it may well be that staying with the union will be what I do. Too early to say right now, but it isn't unusual for one of these buildings to take a year or more to get put up so If I don't screw up I have time to think about it. Does doing small jobs as a self employed contractor while still paying dues qualify one for being banned?
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I'm not sure. I'd guess that if it's just you as a contractor it'd be o.k. You'd have to run that by a B.A.
" Does doing small jobs as a self employed contractor while still paying dues qualify one for being banned?"
Again, different regions and contracts will treat this differently.
If I did that, I'd be brought up on "charges", have to appear before the executive board, told I've been bad, fined a few hundred dollars. A second time would be more unpleasant. A third would probably get my membership pulled.
As a self employed carpenter doing small jobs that wouldn't be done union, that won't get me in trouble.
If it was me, and I was in a new area, I would first ask an older member that I trust. Feel them out about what's acceptable and what isn't.
It wouldn't be the first thing I would ask my new business agent about!
As far as leaving the union and rejoining, that varies too. Some places might let you do it once if you seem to have a good reason for it.
Others just won't.
Some still let you "shelve your book", suspending your membership temporarily. When you come back there's a small fee to "re-open" your book (membership).
One thing you ought to do is ask for a copy of the contract. It's a starting point for knowing the rules you'll be working under.
And if your area is anything like mine, the contracts' provisions will come up from time to time as you deal with people on the job...pete
BUIC, Thanks once again for your info. I will be working on getting the contract info in the next week or so , need to finish up my present obligation first. Here if I was a self employed "carpenter" doing work I would have the State after me for working without being licensed and bonded. "Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 6/17/2007 11:07 pm by dovetail97128
If I did that, I'd be brought up on "charges", have to appear before the executive board, told I've been bad, fined a few hundred dollars. A second time would be more unpleasant. A third would probably get my membership pulled.
As you mentioned, regional differences and all but I know an electrician here in my home town that got caught doing a side job and he was fined $3000! This for a first time deal and I think he told me that they probably wouldnt tolorate a second time.
Doug
Does doing small jobs as a self employed contractor while still paying dues qualify one for being banned?
The primary reason that this is against the union rules is to protect the union contractors who have signed the union agreement from losing work to union members. When union members aren't working it's expected that they will collect their unemployment checks and keep their skills off the market, so that they're not competing with their employers.
Lots of union guys do small side jobs, with contracts. They just don't do anything that might be noticed by anyone who would disapprove.
A general rule of thumb is that contracting with home owners is the way to go, for side jobs. Low profile work, something that can be explained as helping out a neighbor or friend...or a friend of a friend.
To repeat what others have said, each area has it's own discipline about side work. What I've suggested is pretty common but may not fit in certain districts.
"About $38+$5 per hour plus benefits."Now I have to ask you, and I mean this in the most sincere and non-judgmental and non-argumentative way possible: 1) Do you really think that pay rate should be that high for that job?
1a) Is it so high because the cost of living is so high there?2) Don't you think pay being that high is one reason why unions have such a bad rep?
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."
"About $38+$5 per hour plus benefits."
Now I have to ask you, and I mean this in the most sincere and non-judgmental and non-argumentative way possible:
1) Do you really think that pay rate should be that high for that job? 1a) Is it so high because the cost of living is so high there?
2) Don't you think pay being that high is one reason why unions have such a bad rep?
I'm sure that BUIC will have a reply but I feel pretty strongly about this topic so I gotta put in my two cents.
Unions have a bad rap, in some homes, because they make no effort to promote their accomplishments on behalf of working people. IMO, if they'd put together a couple of good TV ads, aimed at educating people about the benefits of collective bargaining for union members, the public perception of unions would change rapidly.
Regarding the rate of pay: The cost of living in NYC and nearby is astronomical, compared to other parts of the country. The last I heard, NYC's contract with it's sanitation workers was for about the same money as the above.
Thanks, I thought it may be a COL thing. I remember doing some work at a jobsite in Chicago being built with union carps (Walsh Construction). They were making $34/hr but tiny 60 y/o houses cost $350K IIRC there.
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."
I find it disheartening when a question like yours is asked. I think any skilled worker should make that. Many should make more.
Why would someone want their fellow man to be poorer? So they feel richer somehow? I just can't understand that. I honestly believe in the idea, "a rising tide floats all boats."
Why shouldn't he make that, he's 59, I'm guessing he has skills and experience.
If he works an average year without overtime he'd make about $72,000 plus benifits. That's not excessive.
Here in NY, if you're a family of 4 and you want to buy a home, that isn't enough income.
As to your last question, just the way you phrase it speaks volumes about your feelings on the subject. And no, the rate of pay doesn't cause a "bad rep".
Unions have strengths and weakness'. Most large groups do. They've done a great deal of good for this country, their faults don't come close.
buic
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have a sit-down with the locals business agent. tell him where your coming from. that friendship could pay huge dividends when its time to call the hall looking for talent
Just adding to the good advice from BUIC.
One very positive point in your favor: You're being hired by a company to work exclusively for them. Therefore you don't have to get chummy with anyone in the union or play politics on the job, as most union members discover they must do. You can avoid all that. Of course you'll have your own company politics to deal with but that's pretty simple compared to all the stupid dramas in the union.
One negative: At your age, you probably won't work long enough to get vested in the pension plan. At the time I was a member of the UBC&J of America, ten years of continuous work with a minimum number of hours each year was required to get vested.
I worked union for a total of more than ten years but they weren't continuous so, like many other members, I have no claim to the many thousands of dollars which were paid into that fund in my name. In your case, you can just write if off as part of the expense of being represented by a union. That's how I look at it. I've been planning for an active retirement for many years and I'm enjoying the rewards of working on interesting projects at my own pace.
Edit: Maverick's thought is a good one...if you're going to be the one calling the hall when it's time to hire another carpenter. But I'd sure talk to my boss about that, before getting involved with any union reps., even the shop steward.
Every company has their own way of handling union business. Sometimes it's all above board, everything in plain view. Other times it's not so easy to know what's going on, and the company may want to keep that side of things very private. Best to take care and follow your boss's lead precisely.
Edited 6/13/2007 6:45 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson, Thank You , I picked up that the owner was a union carp some time back.
Started his own company , tried non-union and wasn't satisfied with what he was getting for subs etc.
He was direct and blunt about them being a union operation so if I take the job that is obviously part of the package. I don't see it as much of a problem, I won't be looking for anything from the union that I can think of. Just trying to spend the last working years doing projects I love is all."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
i spent years in but as hudson valley said they were not in the right order but would now be to get a pension, Im a little bitter but at the time i got benefits and made great money, Sounds like a great deal to me. I was in the Astoria local but there never was enough work for us here, Astoria 780 before that Hackensack no 15 but i just turned out then and the economy went bust good thing about Oregon you dont have to pay Tony Soprano>joke Not<
bobys,
Thank you ,
I am not looking for anything from the union, although the benefits would definitely be nice, mostly am concerned about the cost of membership etc. My position may well be salaried with this company . Haven't gotten that far in negotiations yet. If it cost some $ to be a member but that amount is within reason for what I am paid I won't mind. I would not be being hired for my carpentry skills as much as for my knowledge of the type of building and my job management skills."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
The union is a good place for someone who is young. Here in the south the carpenters have caused a lot of members like myself to leave and find better jobs that are more stable. The problem with being a job site superintendent is that you are higher paid than a journeyman and that means you are going to be the first one to go when there are layoffs. If you do not mind the chance of layoffs go with the deal they offered you but my advise would be to negotiate a salaried position as an employee. I back the union fully but my family comes first so do not feel like iam trying to scare you from it.
kodi,
Thanks for the input, as I said I am totally unfamiliar with how the unions operate. Just never had call to be around them until this job offer came my way.
I was salaried at my last two positions as super , but have no idea how this company works it. I can tell you unless they love paying overtime it would be to their benefit to put me on salary since I generally spend 12 hrs. a day on my projects because I want to , not because I have to ."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I'm IBEW,
and in a nutshell, what BUIC wrote applies to us as well..
in your new position you won't have to worry about dealing with carpenters, just other supervisors.. almost 100% of the time.
be sure you stay hourly ..
and to reiterate, read the local agreement so you don't have any surprises when you start managing manpower.....and let your GFs and foremen worry about the details, just use bold strokes
Good Luck dovetail , I hope it works for you
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, wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
maddog,
Thank you . I hope so as well, This company does nice work and is building a niche in winery building which I have some experience building (two fairly large projects) so it could be a good marriage."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Pay the fee and join, and then abide by the rules. Your age has nothing to do with it. If you wanted the job, and you needed a driver's license, you would not think twice about getting one. This is no different. You don't have to be for or against unions. You are just getting qualified for a job.
Sasquatch, good point , Thank You ."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Back in the '70s, I was a member of local 225. IIRC, dues were based on the hourly pay rate and were something like 2 hours pay a month. Health insurance was managed by the union, was a great deal, and the employers paid the union. At the time, it cost employers about 7% of the hourly rate. A pension was also managed by the union and paid for by employers, but you may not work long enough to collect anything from that. IIRC, you had to work the equivalent of 5 years of 40 hour weeks to qualify.
In 1980, we got about $11.45/hr in wages, but employers were paying the union another $3.05 in pension and insurance fees. Insurance was only good when your dues were paid up and you had worked some trivial amount in the last 6 months. Benefits expired at the end of the quarter after the last quarter in which you had worked enough hours to qualify. So, you could quit working in September, have an operation in January, and the insurance would pay off.
There was also a hiring hall. If you became unemployed, you could go down there twice a day and see if an employer called in needing people. Some people would brown-nose a business agent and bypass that.
I do not recall any disadvantages, unless you are concerned about the opinions of a few people who don't have the skills to join the union.
How's this for a plus------------ You will be able to refer to me as your "UNION BROTHER" ;-)
If you don't stand behind the troops, why don't you try standing in front of them. Bumper sticker
plumbbill,
No problem there! ... just so I don't have to become a conservative.... Bro ;-) But if this job goes for me I won't be around here to bug you guys ...lol I may well have become union if I started out in an area where could drive less than 60 miles to find work with the union. I have kept busy enough for 35 yrs. without leaving this rural county except twice. I like it that way. This company is working a lot in this county doing very nice winery work so I would think I could get used to being union just for the fun of the work."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 6/14/2007 12:23 am by dovetail97128
"... just so I don't have to become a conservative.... Bro"
that's funny ...
as being here in Pgh .... I thot once U joined a union ... any union ...
they cut out the part of yer brain that let U vote againt the Dem party line!
anyhoo ... I'm strongly anti-union .... growing up in a strong union family ... yet Republican ... family ... but ... thinking I'd jump at the oportunity.
(my Dad worked in and was very active as a Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen Union member ... retired and worked for the Union as a Rep and lobbiest afterwards ... being a strong Republican he was always on the outside ... but ... being himself ... he was also always on the inner track at the same time.)
59 or so ain't a bad age to find a bit of stability ... even working on the fringe as this job sounds like it'll be. Might be the best of both worlds. Look into it and keep us posted.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Hi Im new to this discution, I'm a Union cabinetmaker in California, the bay area, we belong to the same union as construction, my salary as Layout is 27.51 + vacation, health (vision & dental to) for me and my family, pension & anuity, vesting for the pension takes 5 years, the anuity, is yours when you retire, vested or not, can be paid in a lump sum or monthly with your pension. I took me 3 months to get the medical. the initiation fee was 3 months dues, dues as of today are $ 20.00 per month. you will get a statment every year with your estimated pension and anuity, so far on the las one I received my pension will be as much as my SS if it exists 10 years from now. I'm 53 and I started this job ( my first in the union ) 3 years ago.
Good look brother.
P.D. pardon my engish, I learned It when I came to this Great Country 19 years ago, and I did not have any formal training in it.
Ricardo, Concord, CA
ricardo,
Thank you . Your information helps. Your english is fine ! As far as I concerned it is the quality of work that matters more."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
HudsonValley hit it.
The same thing happened to me, but I was about 45 then. A big company wanted me to work for them running jobs because of certain skills, plus people skills. I went for it. I worked for them for about 3 years and it was really good. Problem was, I had to travel...I mean to places like Omaha, Japan, or Spain. Cool beans, but I was missing my kid's football games. I quit and never went back. Oddly enough, it wasn't the carp union.
Union work is so much more by the book and you have rules rules and more rules, and so much is not left up to the individual. There is a real pecking order that you have to get used to and you know what they say about sh!t running down hill.
There can be some really cool jobs however , and you do get to meet some great people.
I would think that your situation is unique as was mine and that you should go for it. It does offer you more security.
The bigger picture from my view however is that Unions have shot themselves right through the foot and care much more about the money and greed than they do about anything else.
There's good & bad.
I read the title and thot ...
amlost 60 ... with what could be considerable job security ...
and benefits.
as anti-Union as I am ... I'da called even quicker than U did!
I always have to keep in mind ... me and my Dad are besically the same guy ... and he thrived in the brotherhoof of signalmen union on the railroad. That's not to say pretty much each and every day of his working life ... being very republican in a very democratic working work ... that someone wasn't trying to have him fired.
he said he always used the BS to his advantage. Did a better than average job ... and when his name came up ... often ... the bosses already knew who he was. Got promotions he didn't even apply for and took advantage of each and every union sponsored training school. Took advantage of his political background when he retired ... the union thought it'd be great to have a republican on their side so he went to work as a lobbiest.
if learning all the new rules is something U can get into ... he was also a union rep for work related cases when they went to "union court" ... he worked as a workers Rep.
Said it gave him a chance to play lawyer and defend clients.
he worked for/with the union till he was close to 70.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
Unions need more men like your father, at the top. Too many quality guys are shy about running for office, leave it to others.
And the "others" are often opportunists who take advantage of their elected position to screw their brother members in numerous ways.
I swear he was just there for the fights!
if they just let him alone he'da quit years before ...
but since he had someone to fight with ... he stayed!
he did know that union rule book by heart ... guys would request to have him at their hearing ...
I remember one case in particular ... one of his own crew ... something about drinking on the job ... which Dad hated. He told the guy ... I'll get U yer job back ...
But U screw up one more time .... I'll fire U and it'll stick.
wasn't 2 weeks after the trial and he fired the guy.
Guy knew he was cooked ... Dad knew all the rules ... knew how to keep ya ...
knew how to fire ya.
he and I have always had great union talks ... he's agreed that it's probably not the best place for me ... he always said at least he was smart enough to know when to shut his mouth and pick his battles ...
I remind him ... I am his fault!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Do they have an "Old Farts Union"???
:)
What's the scale??/
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"First thing I would do is shoot the carpenter"
MisterT,
I would think that old farts earned the right to not get on a scale."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca