Ah Need Another Source for Stair Parts
Anyone out there know of a stair railing parts manufacturer that makes helical 1/4 turn parts as a stock item?
With most part manufacturers what you typically do when you want to change direction and turn a descending railing what you do is use a straight Up Easing to level it out and then a level Quarter Turn. If you wanted to continue on down as in a 180º switch back or U-Shaped stair you would then go to another level Quarter Turn and a Down Easing.
What we do is is fabricate helical curved easings by hand such as in the photo below. That one as you can see comes down and makes the turn into a level volute but if it was 180º switch back or U-Shaped stair we would have that easing join to another Helical Down Easing.
The trouble is I’m the guy in our company who actually makes these things and right now we are looking at a possible project that has 12 switch back turns throughout the house so that’s 24 easing I would have to make and I’m already having trouble finding the time to do anything so I like to see if there are any stock part manufacturers that make them. Any ideas?
Baring find them as stock part I’m thinking of out-sourcing them to a shop with CNC machine so any suggestions there I add them to my list too.
Replies
IIrC RW Specialties carries them..
Best I can come up with for a link...
http://www.bsdurango.com/flooring.php
it's a start
View Image R.W. stair parts: R.W. carries just about everything you need for building stairs. Parts range from posts, balusters in all shapes, sizes, materials, rails, shoes, fillets, stair fittings, steps, treads, risers, mouldings, trend covers and all the necessary equipment need to install your new stair case. Also we offer custom millwork. We have a very creative woodworking team to help you design your dream stairs.
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WOW!!! What a Ride!
Jerrald,
There are several guys on the board with the capabilities to make these to your specs.
I don't think shipping would be a problem.
Why not give a shout out to Sphere.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Thanks for the recomendation but Sphere is covered up in work till late next yr. I probly have less time than he does, and no access to a CNC.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Sphere, I'm guessing then you are also making parts like this by hand?
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Yes, a 3d CNC is pricy time, and those are finicky parts there. I'd guesstimate about 3 hours each? Not includeing glue up of the blank?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Sphere - "Yes, a 3d CNC is pricy time, and those are finicky parts there. I'd guesstimate about 3 hours each? Not includeing glue up of the blank?" Yeah, for that profile 3 hours of fabrication. We figure 2 to 4.5 depending upon the profile and the reguired tightness of the curve.
Here's another one to throw out to you too and everyone else here that I once originally asked here back in May of 2002.
About two years ago we did 3 story curved stair project for a client in Manhattan.One of the options we explored at one point was a handrail design would look like the scanned image of a xerox below. We followed the idea for a while making a few straight section samples but due to time constraints on the whole project we ended up using another hand rail profile and design.
I thought I'd put this question up here since I now have another potential client who might be interested in a design like this for a curved stair only on a smaller scale (single story) and I like to get some feedback as wee figure out how to do this thing. I think I'll also post this question over at Knots too since I think the techniques involved probably span both realms of expertise.
Click for a larger image
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Back then we ( I ) fabricated a set of samples done as straight sections to work out the handrails size and whether the "ribs" would be beaded or a rope pattern. The problem(s) I discovered we would face are these: The straight section samples I hand carved and shaped the rope and bead patterns from ribs that I applied as glued on appliqué's, that was easy (or easy enough). But this rail is a helical curve with a volute just like the scanned xerox above and that where the problems lie.
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Railing Profile Cross-section
The railing material would be Genuine Mahogany (Honduran)
The bead or rope pattern would be on the top two ribs while the bottom two would be solid (no carved pattern)
How do you shape and fabricate and then detail a piece like that? Both the bead and rope pattern pose different problems regarding"how-to-do-it" and thereby different solutions so we leave it open to consider both possibilities.Even the plain rib on the bottom poses some real difficult problems when you try to shape the rib on a helical curved section.
So any ideas out there? Tools, equipment or materials?
Were looking at doing something like that again only this time the designer and client are thinking about a rope detail instead of a bead and only on the the two upper profiles and the railing isn't so oval. Any thoughts? This one is definityly a custom fabrication, certainly no one makes stock parts like these.
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At first blush, I'd explore a casting technique..when I did a LOT of ornated restoration on pipeorgans, I found that they used a plaster/glue type of stuff it could be molded while soft, and inset or applied, then stained to look like wood..very realistic I might add.
I have made molds of latex and backed them with modeling clay, then cast parts from dyed bondo, remove b4 total hardness and shape/ bend as needed. glue on and carve to blend the lines.
This is just my first stab, I'd have to think a bit more b4 I'd commit to any one process.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
There is a company that advert. s in FHB that sells the mold making supplies . I think that they also have some stuff to make "new " wood .to repair damaged sections and the like.
Sphere - "At first blush, I'd explore a casting technique..when I did a LOT of ornated restoration on pipeorgans, I found that they used a plaster/glue type of stuff it could be molded while soft, and inset or applied, then stained to look like wood..very realistic I might add."
Yup thanks for reminding me about that stuff. It's called compo. Lots of applique ornamaent is made that way. Set into a rabbet groove cut into the railing I'm thinking????
Thanks and keep the brain working on this one. I always find that some of the best ideas come after you "let go" of the problem and are doing something else. I get my best ideas on things like construction techniques and sofware when I'm out bike riding.
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firebird - "Jerrald, There are several guys on the board with the capabilities to make these to your specs."
Well yeah,... that's one of the reason I posted here. That would be very kool to keep it within the "community" (the Breaktime community) if it's at all possible.
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Do I read that as a U shape that has one led up and the other slanting down with the Radius being flat (horizontal) ? Could this be steam bent then shaped? What wood is it to be made of? What is your time frame?
don - "Do I read that as a U shape that has one led up and the other slanting down with the Radius being flat (horizontal)?"
Well yeah except the whole idea of doing it with helical parts is that the turn never levels out and run flat. It's a continuous climb (or decent depending on who your looking at it) so it is never really "flat" (level) anywhere as it makes the turns.
Could this be steam bent then shaped? What wood is it to be made of?
Years ago when I was first exploring doing parts steam bending was the first idea that came to mind. But testing out techniques at the time some of the problems we found were:
A piece of solid stock thick enough to make up the typical railing profiles would be too thick to steam up easily bend
The turn is too tight to steam bend. We have however bent some really tight turns using white oak by steam bending 1/2' thick pieces and then lamination them in other applications but still bending something like cherry like that wouldn't work. It blows apart and/or torques out of shape when steam bent that tight.
And even when steam bending laminations works we (and our clients) generally don't like the look of vertical laminations. It looks a lot better if the top of the railing looks solid rather than the striped look you get from vertical laminations. The rail section of the left is a piece of cherry bending rail while the one on the right (while out of mahogany) is and example of the look you get from horizontal laminations.(the photos for larger images)
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If the railing all looks like the solid wood
look you get from horizontal laminations and then you have a transition part with vertical laminations it looks particularly awkward.
However we have recently begun to reconsider the whole steam bending option again. Check out this article:
Component Maker Puts the Squeeze on Bending -
Precompression technology allows Bethel Furniture Stock to make wood twist and curve like never before. I think this is something we're going to look into as a possibility. We're certainly not going to make pre-compressed wood ourselves but were going to check out Bethels product to see what we can do with it.
What wood is it to be made of?
This project I talking about is specified as maple. (Not easily bent but not quite as difficult as cherry)
What is your time frame?
This project (we haven't securely won the job yet) will probably need to be ready for a February installation.
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Have you ever worked with anhydous ammonia as a sub for steam . I would like to try that some time . I heard that it makes the wood so pliable that it can be tied into a Knot .
I know what you mean about glueups. I don't care much for the look either.
I got you now no flats . that might be easier than trying to make the flat with two bends . Would look better also.
Golly everybodies in a rush these days.
Forgot to ask what is the radius or dia of the turn ?
Edited 10/24/2004 12:02 pm ET by don
don - "Have you ever worked with anhydous ammonia as a sub for steam . I would like to try that some time . I heard that it makes the wood so pliable that it can be tied into a Knot ."
No, I've never even heard of such a thing. What have you heard? Using "anhydous ammonia steam" doesn't sound all that safe though so I might be a little wary of playing around with something like that (or having employees working with it).
"I got you now no flats . that might be easier than trying to make the flat with two bends . Would look better also."
These (upper and lower) were cut from solid pieces of cherry stock. Looks good and this is exactly why we get calls for jobs like this.
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"Golly everybodies in a rush these days."
Ready for installation in February, geez that's not bad at all. You should hear some of the more urgent or last minute schedules we hear about.
"Forgot to ask what is the radius or dia of the turn ?"
5-1/2 radius 11 inch diameter and that's centerline to centerline. The radius on the that turn in the photos above is 4-7/8".
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That is a nice looking set of stairs with the long sweeping turns.
I have worked with anhydrous before,never on wood though. But like anything hasardous it must be respected. I would not let employees work with it . That being said with rubber gloves and a facemask it would be relatively safe to work with. I would like to give it a go on some thick wood sometime just to see if it would make those types of bends. If I could eliminate the bending strap then compound curves would be a cinch.
Rather than calling it steam I think the proper term would be vapour. I would like to build a vapour chamber so I could soak wood with NH3. It needs to withstand a pressure greater than 200 psi.I read that the wood should be presoaked in water to get the moisture up to the 20% range . Then to soak in the vapour chamber about 1hr. per inch . That would be a lot like steaming time frames.
Thats about all I know right now the rest will be experiments. You never learn anything new unless you screw up some thing sometime.
And it occurs to me wouldn't the ammonia part of all this turn any oak black a la mission style?
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If I remember right it does darken a it but not much .It does make the wood a little harder (dense) also.
One thing that springs to mind is to check with architectural salvage companies. If reconditioned material is OK with the customer, you might find everything you need from a demoed hotel or apartment building.
-- J.S.
We've done and do a lot work with architectural salvage but I think in this case finding 24 (12 up and 12 downs) of the right wood species in an acceptable profile isn't worth the time the searching would take given it's probability of success within an acceptable time frame. The problem I have that has us looking for an external source is I don't have the time to make them and given the uncertainty and travel time searching through salvage I think that's out. Good idea none the less though, just not for this job or this client.
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Jerrald,
The whole part looks like a rising or climbing Volute. Not an uncommon part. I bet if you look you can get just the upeasing. Maybe F.J. Newmyer has them.
If you don't find them, Try:
STAIR-PAK. Used to be in New Jersey. Now they are in Pine Grove PA. Ask for Rich Joyce senior. He can make anything. I have in past done a few very interesting jobs for him. The website deals mostly with spirals but believe me he can do anything. He makes Circulars for more than one company that sells them as their own. Not sure about price. Tell him an old installer refered you.
Greenbrook Stairs in New Jersey. Used to be in Bernardsville but I think he moved.
Harmonson Stairs in New Jersey also.
Robert. "The whole part looks like a rising or climbing Volute. Not an uncommon part. I bet if you look you can get just the upeasing." Yup helical up easing are common to rising and climbing volutes but to make the turn on a switch-back stair we also need the reverse of that which is a helical down easing and therein lies the problem.
We use F.J. Newmyer and they are a really great supplier but not much help with some of the abstract stuff we do, which is okay I guess because if they had all this stuff all of the stairshops around us who also use them would be able to do the same stuff we do so I guess that's the trade-off.
Harmonson is the source we already knew about (they have a 5 axis CNC Router) and probably where we will end up going but I posted here to hopefully expand the number of places we could outsource work when we needed to so I appreciate the Greenbrook and Stair-Pak leads. When you wrote "Ask for Rich Joyce senior. He can make anything." that got a laugh out of me because that sort of the problem we have here. People always say "Ask for Jerrald Hayes. He can make anything." My company is split into two groups now Project Management and Architectural Woodworking and I am working as part of the project management group (there are two of us there and three plus guys doing AW) and I don't have the time to go back to fabricating and while my guys can install anything fabricating freeform and helical parts is a little bit beyond them. That's why I'm looking. Thanks for the help, especially the contact name.
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Jerrald
I just saw this thread, saw the easing that you need. (besides my team is stinking up the world series, cant stand to watch)
I have built those with a shaper and a jig, done it plenty times. Unless you have some really difficult profile I cant imagine that you would have to go all that far given the amount of people that live in the NY area.
I've never seen a 5 axis cnc so I wouldn't know what they are capable of and I wouldn't even consider carving the darn things, cant imagine anybody doing that anymore, seems kind of senseless.
I e-mailed the pic to a guy that I work with and he said about the same thing.
I'm not soliciting the work, have more than I want now. Just found the subject interesting.
Doug
Jerrald: Try Old Millworks ..I just ordered two compound volutes from them. They will make fittings in almost any species you can come up with.
They are near Chicago..but are on the internet.
Stan