These retaining wall products – anyone have experience with them?
Apparently these things are made around the country by local ceement companies under license. I wanna do a project in the boy’s back yard with them – he’s on the west coast of Michigan.
Best Block out of Warren makes them for this neck of the woods. I stopped by the Best Block shop in Muskegon and found that I couldn’t get a better price out of Best than I could from Home Desperate or Menards. He said they had an agreement where they would not undersell each other. (I was kinda surprised the other places carried the same material – but isn’t that antitrust?)
That concerns me. #1, I have a good sized project. Early estimates of materials would fill a couple of tractor trailers. Maybe more. I couldn’t imagine doing a special order of this size thru these big boxes without something getting fornicated. The materials on hand at these places are at best samples. And what we want, they don’t display.
#2, This means they’re doing mass marketing of something that appears simple, but closer study shows (at least in my case) higher levels of engineering may be required. I couldn’t imagine those shaved monkeys being able to be literate of loads and design characteristics of the Free Standing Wall components. Calling technical service of the Anchor themselves gives a better understanding of the complexities, but there’s always more.
I plan on getting quotes from all three sources for comparison, but I’m wondering if it would be better for me to charter my own fleet of flat beds to make the 350 mile round trip and deal directly with the factory?
And then, the Free Standing Wall product is simply solid core ceement blocks, 9″ deep, with the raw decorative surface on the front and back. They’re stacked and glued together to form structures as high as 4′.
I wanna build an outdoor fireplace with this stuff. So it matches exactly with the landscaping retaining wall material. But 9″ deep “bricks” puts the structure out of context. And the structure I want will end up being 15 to 18′ high.
Anyone know if these blocks are available in half sizes? Or do I have to put a kid on a block saw & slice them in half? I’m thinking the best stucture out of these things will need an inner core of CMU’s, perhaps with rebar, sitting on a big fat slab. Then these half blocks would be the veneer. If so, would I need to mortar them, or would stone glue and brick tabs work?
Replies
This post is basically just a "bump" but I'm surprised big box stores even sell blocks of an appropriate size for the scale of project you are talking about. For what you are doing, I'd say deal with a company that caters to professionals, not a big box. Also, I'd recommend dealing with an "in stock" dealer, not special order if possible. No doubt though, this stuff is expensive. We pay about $14 a sq ft to have it installed.
You are right in that there is a national design/engineering company and they are licensed to local producers.
There are dozens of different source companies and many of them have multiple lines.
And more confusing is that some producers such has Pavestone have both their own designs and also license others.
It is very fragmented market and all lines are not available in all locations.
For Anchor Wall Ssytems you should be able to go to their website and see if there is a 1/2 block size in the pattern that you are looking at.
If so then start looking for companies that make that pattern. Contacting Anchor they might be able to tell you.
If Anchor does not have such a pattern then you might start looking at other brands that may have patterns that are similar to what you are wanting to match. But you would need to do the whole project with that line.
Just a couple of thoughts:
Block is block. HD gets the same block you are getting directly from the factory - block for block. If there is no dif in $ why spend the extra time and $$ to do the delivery yourself?
Sounds like you need the services of an engineer.
I do not think retaining wall blocks would be good for a fireplace/ hearth. I do not believe they are rated for the high heat and the cooling cycles of a hearth regardless of size.
The caulk adhesive for these walls is excellent, however I do not believe they are rated for high heat either.
I understand your thinking that if you are buying 3 truck loads, why should you be paying the same price as someone buying only a pick-up truck's worth. To get a better discount, look for one of there promotions - sometims tied into the enrollment in a store cc.
Bottom line, there is a bottom line these blocks are sold for. HD negotiates a contract with their suppliers as though they were buying in gross at one time. They then pass this discount onto their market. Good for the guy who buys little and who buys lots. Only by comparision to each other is it not good for the guy who buys lots.
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Bill & Frankie,
What the F?
So's I contact the engineer at Anchor. Ask him all my Q's and find out his concerns. He tells me his block is not tested or rated for lateral forces, such as wind. Now this is the Free Standing variety. We go over options and he says, you could mortar them together to gain strength, you can introduce design elements such as a sepentine effect to the wall, build in supportive pilasters, even use rebar or other masonary structural support items. Says to discuss it with my designer and mason and they can comeup with something.
So I draw up the plans, incorporating all of the above suggested items. Feel happy, briefly discuss it with the BI. He's more concerned about the deck framing issues, which are very minor. But we touch upon frost depth issues to be sure. It's 42" in this area, but he says he will allow 24" IF the structure is on pure sand. We're a couple of miles from Lake Michigan and this soil is so much sand that there aren't even footing drains to the house. The BI says they're not necessary.
But going over my plans once I get to the work site, and then doing some investigative boring tells me the poured wall basement of the house in the first place is only 96" in total on top of a 8" footing. And then the basement floor has been overlapped over the footing, giving a finished basment floor height of 94" (to the top of the poured wall).
So I look things over and in the interest of saving time and doing the right thing, I call a foundation contractor in for consultation and to do the footings and stem walls in question. Apparently, I called one that wishes he were a structural engineer. In fact, he gives me his pitch about what he does. He's more of a foundation REPAIR contractor.
So we go over my pictures and discuss what I want him to do. He looks over the house & basement and declares the original builder f'ed up the basement by pushing back soil against the basement walls up to just below several sets of basement windows. Claims the walls were never designed to hold those lateral loads and now these cracks going diagonally out from the bottom of the window openings are representative of a rotation of the wall inward.
So I say I simply want a footing to put these blocks up for a 8 foot wall (recall the blocks are 6" high and 9" deep (3 different lengths). Figure the load of the blocks plus the deck on top, and give me a footing to support such.
Well, he says it ain't that easy. Our excavation has resulted in a frost exposure of 6", not the 24 being allowed by the BI, because of interpretations (measuring from the top of the footing, not the bottom). Therefore, I'll need a structural engineer to specify a detail and provide construction documents to satisfy the BI. He'll be happy to call in one ($1600) to provide the details.
So we meet with Eric. Eric becomes far more interested in my Anchor concrete blocks than the frost depth. Says he will also determine and detail whatever necessary for those to function. I'm a bit confused since the Anchor guy provided some encouragement. But he will call the company's engineer and determine the specs to make the system functional. So we go ahead.
Well, I get the verbal report back today. Eric called the engineer at Best Block for specs, not the Anchor engineer. The BB engineer says these blocks are not structual at all. They are only allowed to go 4' and that's it. He dismisses the other design features I mentioned. The alternative of coring holes in these blocks to create a hole for rebar and subsequent grouting are met with, "Should you core these blocks, our company will not stand behind the product." My plan has been scrubbed as a result.
So the foundation contractor goes over all of this with me. As I'm saying BS, he says, wait we got another course of action that will make the issue moot.
An ICF wall behind my planned wall will be plenty adequate for any load issues. He says the BB company has an alternative product that simply splits my desired blocks in half - depth wise, so I would get 4" blocks, rather than 8" deep. Then these blocks can be laid like bricks to achieve the desired appearance.
But we still have to have a "Come to Jesus" meeting with the BI about whether he will accept some form of exterior insulation placed under the finished paver surface as well as gluing foam insulation along the unseen, yet temperature exposed exterior concrete foundation wall.
It's always something!
So my current feeling about these structual engineers is that they are similar to PhD's.
Anyone ever work with one (or more than one)? They continually pick and pick attempting to discover some previously unrealized issue without considering production. I couldn't believe this one guy talking nonstop about the true cleanliness (or should I say dirtyness) of the commercially purchased brand new test tubes. Yeah, perhaps in some Level 5 virology lab, that's necessary. But not everyone needs that specification.
I'm caught between two engineers representing the same product, one the licensor, the other the licensed actual manufacturer (whom manufacturers to agreed specifications). Now the structual engineer takes the most conservative road.
Dirty socks.