We had a hard driving rain tonight and 3 of my Andersen sliders leaked. Water was on the inside of the fixed panel in the channel that the sliding door moves in. The doors were caulked when installed and lead flashing was used. Is there a weep hole in the track that might be plugged or ??
Harry’s Homeworks
Rhode Island
Replies
Wiley,not sure what kind of andersens they are (model or?) but they are 5 footers, vinyl clad, and they are new. Just installed this year. Code etched in glass on lower right corner of slider is as follows: nfrc013/014 high performance igcc r cba igmac cig-3.7 2-01
clarification on location of water: the fixed panel has a plastic trough, U shaped, which is screwed to the fixed panel and the threshold. This piece is between the fixed panel and the track for the sliding panel. that is where the water is and it leaks out the end by the jam and onto the carpet.
If you have suggestions I'd appreciate whatever you can tell me.
Thanks
Harry's Homeworks
Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
Harry, here is one suggestion - you and a helper should remove the slider, then remove the fixed panel. Looking to make sure all the screws were installed, in the threshold/track, while you are at this point, you may as well back out all the screws, force some caulking in the holes, re-install screws, and hopefully one more screw for the one that did not get installed. Best of Luck Jim J
44, thanks for the feedback. I've got a feeling you're right. Take them out and start over.First I'll try Jeff's idea with the hose test. This may give me a specific area to look at when I do the disassemble.
If I told you the whole story from beginning to end on the screw ups on the installation of these doors you probably would get tired of reading before you finished the story and besides that I haven't done my Christmas shopping yet so time is not on my side. Ho,Ho,Ho, Merry Christmas
Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
I think you already know the answer by now. 99% of water leakage on Anderson doors is from bad installations. The written instructions are there for a purpose other than starting a fire. Sounds lkike your installer didn't know that..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
did the frames come as knock downs?
I've installed bunches of them....and havent had any leaks...but could see where skrimping on the assemble caulk might leave room for a hard/driving rain to get thru.
I'd get out the hose and do a wet test. Maybe it isn't the frames and a good disassemble and reassemble will get the fixed panel forced tighter in place.
Last slider I looked at for leaks....they weren't shutting it tight and locking it down!
Wondered why it leaked.....while it was just kinda/sorta slid shut!
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff,yes the frames came as knockdowns and leaked worse until the Andersen rep came and did some minor adjustments. The guy that installed them didn't do a very good job. I.E. He didn't put any flashing on the bottom until I insisted and that may be part of the problem. He took them out to install the flashing and maybe on re-installation took short cuts. I know there were several screws left over. The doors were all locked down tight when the leaking occured.
Thanks for the response. I'll try the hose test when it warms up a bit.
Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
Follow the assembly and installation instructions to a T and be sure to caulk between the jamb and sill as you assemble it. Pan under it with at least an ice/water shild and you'll be ok
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin, That's good advice. I'll download the installation instructions from Andersen's website.The original installation instructions were probably never read. I saw him use silicone caulking that came with the doors but don't know if it was used in all the right places. At my insistance a lead pan was installed the second time around. I've also been told that there's a special flashing made to go around the sides when vinyl siding is used but there was nothing like that installed. Any knowledge of that?
Thanks for the response and Happy Holidays.Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
I don't know about "special" but what I would be doing to install one is to run a pan flashing first of ice/water shield, (Vycor is the brand name that we get here cut at 6", 9" or 12" widths) and either copper or lead. I would assemble the jamb with the silicone in the joints and fit it for a dry run, then pull it out and run a double bead of silicone or Geocel caulk under the sill on the pan. Then once the jamb is set, shimmed and fastened plumb all around, I would run the Vycor around the legs and head before siding..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
http://www.andersenwindows.com/UE/ProductGuide/Residential/400FWGlidingInstallationGuides.asp
browse around here.
The instructions aren't hard to follow, an eight or twelve page set comes with every unit, attached with the hardware,
For ordering, go to your regular Andersen dealer and get them to cut you in on "tuckload pricing". For me this means that I can save twenty or thirty percent but might have to wait six weeks instead of two weeks so we plan ahead. The price and the service will then be better than HD.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Wiley, Thanks anyway. I'll wait until warmer weather and give them the hose test and see what I find. I'll let you know. Merry Christmas
Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
I was in the door and window biz, on the product development side. I can attest, these products all perform well when installed according to the instructions. I have witnessed them all, Andersens and others, going side by side with benchmark units going through the air and water infiltration lab tests up to hurricane strength stuff. Disassemble, start from square one using the instructions, and you won't have a leak, unless you live in Tahiti.
Is that because, in Tahiti, the door is always open?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
TO:Wiley, Piffin, Gene Davis
Thanks all for your input. The doors come out and get reinstalled the right way. Sure is a pain in the @** when you pay to have something done and you have to redo it yourself.
Sorta like the sub that was sent out to install my gas fireplace. Halfway through the job he informed me that he didn't have an electrician's license or a plumber's license.
So I had to call my plumber for the gas line hookup and do the electrical myself. But looking at the bright side the guy was a roofer by trade and did a real nice job getting the stack through the roof and no water leaks.
Or I could take off on a rant about architects that don't listen to what their clients want but I know there are good ones out there and don't want to offend the good guys. Especially since it's the season to be jolly. HO HO HO.
Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
Sounds like its time for the manufacturers to make the installation process a little more goof proof.
Maybe we need a japanese company to start making them?
Perhaps you can explain how the manufacturer can make the installation (not assembly) process a little more goof proof? With all the variables involved in where they go and under what conditions they are installed, how can whoever supplies them make the install problem- free? And how the japanese can solve this problem is another question you might answer. Thanks.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
usually anything / method can be improved.
Its my experience (cars Toyota , outboard motors - Yamaha , electronics Sony etc that lots of little improvements seem to came along each year especially when the Japanese get into the business and they are in the "why didn't somewhat think of that before" category.
Many American manufacturers get complacent with their product.
as long as sales are good they don't care to fix problems or improve the product.
Thats my thought.
I understand your thinking on product updates and such, but my point is that when it comes to the installation of that product, how can the manufacturer make it goof proof? I know Pella discontinued selling their slider frames knocked down as I'm sure they were the first to hear about leak problems etc from those assembled in the field. I personally liked them being available KD as manuevering those units in some instances was made easier by being able to cart or lift the pcs into position b/4 assembly. I was just curious if you had some revolutionary ideas to back up the statement that maybe a manufacturer could make those slider installations goof proof. In addition, I don't think I would be so quick to give foriegn companies any blanket awards over those things made in the USA. Thanks.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Are you saying there is no way the manufacture could modify the design of the door and its sill and track to help this field problem??? And the installation instructions are how long? How many pages??
Sorry, but I think many US companies are too rushed trying to please the stock market and also to pay their CEO mega millions a year to care about long term market share or quality. GM has that problem. Is that good? nope, but I think thats whats happening for the last 20 or so years.
Japanese seem to have a longer range view
dominance in electronics-
yamaha in outboard motors Johnson/evinrude went bankrupt
etc
My new expensive "quality" Powermatic table saw sold to me by an old line Tennessee company (tho made in Taiwan) was the worst of both worlds:
- instruction manual was 2 years out of date
- part of the fence was missing
- drive belt was damaged as the saw sat on it in shipment
- many of the fastners were about 1/8 inch too short such that the fastner just barely engaged the nut. i replaced a good many of them.
The people at the HQ in Tenn. were aware of these problems (but not doing anything effective to fix them.
Edited 12/23/2002 4:06:02 PM ET by wain
Edited 12/23/2002 4:06:47 PM ET by wain
sliding doors leak.... it's the nature of the beast.. the better ones recognize this and make a self-draining track.. like Andersen... but given the right wind/rain conditions ..the best of the bunch will leak..
your's shouldn't be leaking under the conditions they are in..
in some of our coastal installations we put in two set of sliders , back to back, so the outer one becomes the storm door for the inner one..
same thing with standard exterior doors.. we take a lot of pains installing them .. but given the right wind conditions.. they will leak unless they are protected with a storm door... so we tell our Owners up front... sliders leak.. and all exterior doors should be protected with a storm doorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Wain, I am sorry to hear of your dealings with Powermatic.
Not wanting to argue but I guess you didn't quite get what I am asking/saying. No, I don't think the problem always lands in the manufacturers lap. A sealed window unit that permits no air or water filtration tested on it's own, can be installed in a manner that will leak. I don't know that a manufacturer can be held responsible (as long as the configuration allows for a proper installation) for leaks that turn up shortly after installation. There have been many discussions here that start off with the suggestion that all skylights are prone to leaking. Several posters have offered their view that velux for one is a good product, and almost all leaks are the result of poor installation. Velux supplies the unit, the flashing necessary for the install (several kinds depending on the material and pitch) and some pretty detailed instructions specifying the steps and proceedures for a trouble free installation. Could velux do more to make it goof proof?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a business clone that believes everything that comes down the pike. I have had my share of poorly assembled goods. There are some door manufacturers that I refuse to use as every unit supplied had something wrong with it.
My question to you was not meant to be an argument over international trade or manufacturing practices. I just wanted to know if you had the surefire endall answer to a goof proof system. And so, I guess I am saying that there is nothing a manufacturer can do, short of the complete bldg and installation of their product, to ensure a goof proof system that would solve the field problem. And don't panic on the instructions, tho several pages, they try to cover all the steps. As instructions go, Andersen's are one of the easiest to follow and understand.
Even with a good product and pretty darn good install instructions, many of us go a little further in counter flashing and sealing techniques to insure a trouble free job.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thanks.
I am not in the business so I can not say.
i do like velux - looked good - i put one in on my last house , did not leak. Seemed pretty goof proof to install. generally intuitive in nature i thought. head cap, side flashing, bottom piece.
Only similar experience i had was my present house has 3 "double" patio doors. Double pane caradcos circa 1984. Two are installed on the side of the house that has minimal roof overhang (thats another issue) and both leak (ed).
The bottom horizontal sill track piece that the fixed door sits on and the moving one rolls on (hope these terms are right) was cut short on each end so instead of extending under the vertical side rails that go up the jamb they stopped short. Not to worry tho, Mr Caulk was called to the rescue to fill in the 1/4 inch gap on each end. And when the water leaked thru - no problem again, the wooden sill caught it all (rot city of course. )
Instructions are good but I don't see too many people reading them on a construction site - they might get the laugh. Many people here closing in and working on $500k homes do not speak english - they may be able to read it tho.
My only thought was that if YOU were in charge of the company, could you/would you do anything to make it better?
And i guess are all the brands the same? or do other brands do it differently??
Thank you for you explanation. I do not have the answer. Instinct is the doors should only be sold in a frame, but then maybe the leak would be between the frame and the house??
Wain, I'm feeling much better now. This has calmed a bit.
If you addressed the question about a co. to me? Sure, it would be perfect as that is close enough for this job. Working from referral only gives me the opportunity to do the job right and get paid for it. That is to say, no need to cut corners to beat another out on a bid. You still have to hear the moans (about price), but you don't get the call backs. If I was the manufacturer, I would sweat the details and avoid a shoddy product. Course, that would make em cost more no doubt. My hope would be the quality would warrant the public paying more.........or out of business I would be.
You mention caradco from the time period I was used to seeing many fail at the door rail/stile connections. Poor vinyl weatherstrip, shrunk and left a birdsmouth opening for water intrusion. Same with the fixed panel connections. Wow, people would pull the stile off closing it.........provided the handle hadn't broken before that. In deference to caradco, some were peachtree. Most folks were due for a new unit after only 7 yrs. These were a case of poor assembly at the plant and throw it in on the job. Bum deal.
I don't mind the pre assembled units, but being one guy, sometimes the KD option is inviting. Like Mike said tho, sometimes conditions defy even the best unit and the best install.
What's almost comical is that on moving parts, people want complete ease in operating, but damn your eyes if a puff of air or water enter once in awhile. For something to be able to open with ease and seal like a drum is a hard bill to fill. You have yourself a merry christmas.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Please don't idiot-proof the world for me.
I can read directions all by myself......and I don't wanna end up paying even more for a new and improved product that was fine in the first place....because a few idiots can't figure such things out in the first place.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite