Apprentic – tools should I be packing?
Ok here’s the scoop – I’m second year apprentice carp in BC – my employeer is scottish (nuff said). We do a bit of everything – foundation, framing, exterior finish, interior trim, both in new home and renovation construction – most homes we work in/on are in the 750-1 mill range; lots of post and beam and exposed timber- not slap ups.
What tools should I be packing to the job site? Presently I have what I consider standard: apron, skill saw, hammer stapler and a cordless drill. My tool box is outfitted with 2′ and 4′ levels, framing square, hand saw, tin snips, driver bits, clamps and some other odds and ends (screwdrivers, pliers, etc, etc).
So I’ve noticed on my job site the journeymen carps are packing their own jig saws, sawzalls, ‘lectric hand planers, beltsanders, 1/2″ drills, etc etc – one guy even brought in his bench top thickness planer in so he could get the results he wanted.
So what do I do – break the bank so I can ensure my level of quality stays high – or keep bugging the other guys to borrow their stuff.
Also I’m curious what other guys at my level are bringing to the jobsite. Maybe some of you supers and GCs can voice what you expect from your up and comers.
Txs in advance
M
Replies
It sounds like what you have are the basics, everything above and beyond is some thing you just sort of acquire through the years. A lot of the tools I own or bought at the time where what I needed to complete that job, at that time. If I where hiring an apprentice right now off the street and gave him a tool list, this is what I would expect.
Pouch-Hammer, Tape, Plenty of pencils and sharpies, pliers, straight and philips screwdriver, utility knife, chalk line, chisel, pocket square
A lot of the power tools you can acquire over time. Tools that I think are necessity are...
Cordless drill, circular saw, sawzall, jigsaw, 2',4',6' levels, compressor, framing gun, brad nailer, finish nailer, belt sander, palm sander..........
You have to make the decision on what tools you think would benefit you to complete the job you are given. There is nothing I hate more than to borrow someone elses tools. If I break it, then I have to replace it. If that's the case I could have bought one for myself in the first place.
Having your own tools and being able to complete a job with them, gives you satisfaction that you can't explain. Being able to stand back and say I built that house with my bare two hands is something no paper pusher can ever say.
Remember to add "red", "black", and "green" Robertsons to the screw-driver list in BC. I would get the #3 and #4 in both 4" and 10".
<!----><!----> <!---->
Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
pencils? why should he have to buy a wack of pencils? you get em for free don't you?
I am picky with my pencils. It seems like everyone on my crew has a bet everyday to see who can collect the most pencils out of my pouch.
Edited 2/22/2007 10:33 pm ET by JFord
Obviously, you'll figure out over time what tools you really "need", and which ones you don't.
What you might want to think more about is: what sort of work do you want to be doing? For example, if you really like doing finish trim, make sure you've got finish guns and a chop saw. Buy the tools that will help you do the type of work you enjoy.
You are an apprentice on his jobs. Sounds like you have a reasonable set of tools. Anything beyond them, I would expect your boss to provide. I don't see where apprentices should be packing their own bench top planers. Where does it end. Your own backhoe?
If you do bring in your own specialized tools, hit him up for a tool allowance. The same as you should if you use your truck to haul lumber. You are not a contractor, you are his employee.
Like finger said . I hired many a carp in my day and I don't expect any of them to have more than the basics. I am very thankful when they do have something to bring to the job site but I don't require them to.
I would start with what "you need". When you don't have it, borrow from the boss not your co-workers if you can help it. They may be using there own because they simply like to use there own.
When you come on a job where you are going through a lot of blades then ask your boss to pick up a few. I am sure he would not mind. Or perhaps use his tools on that job. Your investments should be invested on your job. Don't feel like you have to keep up with the Jonese's. You need to pay your bills and keep an eye on the future.
As for tools ? Talk to the guys around you and see what they like. If your buying an air gun it might be wise to pick up one of the same brands they use so you can share the bosses nails. But the tools you need to pick up don't go in an apron. They go in your head. Sounds like a good solid crew you work with. It will be hard to get your foot in the door and learn new stuff because there are so many on the job who know it well and time is money for the boss. So get your self a rafter book, carp square some stair bottons/jig. Go on the web, buy some books, study on your own and ask questions when you can , but stay productive on the job site ( sometimes its a fine line). My point is If you know how to do it ,you can borrow a tool to get it done, if you have the tool and don't know how to do it you have to hire someone and lend them your tool. As a boss I am more impressed with knowledge than what tools they bring. I am in the businees and I already have the tools, I just need someone who knows how to use them. Good luck, Its a rewarding life ...........minus the blisters,splinters,broken bones,callus hands..............................
a big ditto!
Bottom line is the sooner you get tooled up the faster you'll be making more money and be considered closer to a full carpenter. The quickest way to make it is dress like a carp, act like a carp, have the tools of a carp and learn as much as you can.
It's not possible to be a carpenter without the tools. Each check buy something big or small.
Start with what gives the most bang for the buck. Shop sales and factory refurbished tools.
Make sure you have the handtools needed on a daily basis. Then focus on small power tools that get used the most. A basic tablesaw and chopsaw can be fairly inexpensive. A cheap tablesaw is 500% better than no tablesaw.
If you let the experienced carps know you are trying to build up your tool chest many will give you hand-me-downs.
Avoid tools that are rarely used for now. Also avoid expensive options.
As you gain experience continue upgrading tools and you'll be the one giving the younger guys hand-me-downs.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
What tools should I be packing to the job site?
A plan.
At the end of your apprenticeship, you will want to have all the tools you see the Jmen around you using.
You are going to want tools that last. That are repairable when they break and rebuildable when they die. Expensive tools! Figure about $15,000 - $25,000 over five years, plus 5% - 10% for repairs and maintenance. Assuming you have 5 years left in apprenticeship total that 5 years of income and see what % $16,500 - $27,500 is. Spend that percentage of each years income on tools that year. Put it aside every payday.
The first tool you should buy is the expensive tool and the cheapest tool you have had to borrow most often over the last ... 6 months. Since you are putting aside that % every week it won't take long to afford. Then just keep buying the one you borrow the most. Or the one they hate loaning the most (|:>)
The single most important tool you need to acquire is a 10 year savings account for yourself, not tools, or trucks, or girls, that you put a % of each check into.
JMHO.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Cheers from Burnaby, where are you located?
"If 'tis to be,'twil be done by me."
"The single most important tool you need to acquire is a 10 year savings account for yourself, not tools, or trucks, or girls, that you put a % of each check into."Why don't we throw Alcohol into that list for good measure?
Why don't we throw Alcohol into that list for good measure?
That's not a list. It's a metaphor.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Welcome to BT.
When it comes time to buy these tools you definitely need good ones but truthfully think about how you really use each tool and buy to your needs. A hammer drill for instance; get an SDS but do you really need a big Hilti or is a Bulldog fine, 1/8", 1/4" and 1/2" are almost the only bits I ever use so I simply don't need 2 1/2" capabilities and it would be a waste of money to buy one that big for me.
Keep an eye on the tool folder here and you can get some idea as to what are really the best tools out there. Looking to buy a sawzall? Just search past discussions or ask. All the specific tools you need get discussed in depth at some point.
Good Luck,
-day
PS. Add a 4 1/4" angle grinder to the lists above, it is one of those tools for me that seems to come out of the box at least twice a week.
A nice set of slicks, good sharpening stones and roll to keep chisels in. A good mallet.
Scribes, various quality squares, A nice japanese crosscut and rip saw for joinery.
For timber framing stuff
Judo Chop!
>> What tools should I be packing to the job site? <<
Cats paw :-) As an apprentice, even if you don't make many mistakes, you will probably be fixing everyone else's. Or at least be delegated the tear-out portion. :-)
When I started my career I had nothing in the tool department. I got tools as I was required by my employer. I came to work the first day with the basics like you have listed. And slowly built my collection up to the size that 4 guys can use.
Here are a few good tools to keep in mind for the not so distant future.
Air compressor and hoses, really are involved in almost every stage of the game. Buy the guns as you need them, some compressors come as kits with guns. Might be a good option to look into.
Router, Belt Sander, Jig Saw, Chop Saw, hammer drill, angle grinder, sawzall.
Don't pass up reconditioned tools, they are cheaper but the warranty is usually the same. Don't buy tools on an impulse either, do some research.
Check with carps on the site or here on the forum for good advice. I haven't been let down yet with the tool advice I have received here.
Sounds like good advice all the way down the post. That said, I agree with the basics comments too. It's just that you need to consider those tools that you do borrow a lot; how much time it takes to go find the nice guy to let you borrow it, walk back to your spot, use it, then return it again. (how many times in one day?!) SO, get the stuff you're borrowing a lot. Save up for it, that's all you can do. I don't know if you have checked out Ebay but there are some great deals there on ALL brands and qualities, sold by persons and companies. I got a new Bosch router that reatils for $200 for $120. I saved 80 bucks because some guy bought it and never used it! On the timber framing side of things, I advise to have your own stuff there; mallet, chisels, 3/4, 1 inch, 2 inch. These are used so much during the framing process. Otherwise, save for the tools you need. Yeah, and from my experience, take that advice on putting away some of each paycheck into an account that you don't touch. Just SOME is better than NONE! When you go to buy a house you'll really appreciate it! Cheers.
tool belt and what ever you need that fits in it. I got a side pocket that my skill fits in :)
no really, you got a weird set up if you have to supply your own tools, above and beyond what you carry in your belt. at least from what I've seen.
also according to Revenue Canada an employer supplies the tools above personal hand tools. I apprenticed here in BC working in Vancouver and West Van homes $750 - $5,000,000 range. ( Framing - some finishing)
are all the carps that you work with employees or sub contracting? an employer that doesn't supply tools? is your boss a GC or a builder or what? sounds like a unusual set up to me. and if you got to supply the big tools, there aint no way you should be expected to be pay for them on a standard apprentice wage. you should get paid extra for that.
you should NOT have to go looking for a nice guy hoping he will lend you a tool! that is BS it is your employer's responsibly to make sure you have what you need to learn your trade!! now I'm getting annoyed just thinking about it.
when I apprenticed I slowly bought what I could afford as I could afford it, not because I had to but because I love tools and wanted to. But dude They stayed at home, not getting worn out on my bosses job when I'm not getting paid for that. I used em for stuff at home and all the little side jobs I did for people on week ends and stuff.
buy tools because you want to, not because you feel forced to. for an apprentice to have to do that, that is a load of Scottish crap!
I agree, he is either an appprentice working for someone and expected to supply the basics. or he is a carp who gets PAID to bring his own tools , repair said tools , sharpen said tools by having the GC rent them from him. Talk to a few union carps and ask what they are expected to provide, that will give you a clue.
I spent thousands providing tools for GC's who were happy to employ me .. they showed a bigger bottom line.
Other good advice from other posts.. save a % your money every pay period.. Then you will have some if you decide you wish to go into business yourself .
I'll agree that your boss should be supplying your big tools. I supply everything to my guys besides there pouch. But as an employer who does forming and framing I love a guy who has his own stuff. Especially a young guy. Not because it saves my tools from getting beaten,but because that kid's a go getter. If I gotta pull a guy off a job to send him somewhere else, Im gonna guy for the guy who has his own tools to do it. Reason is, he's not grabbing tools from the crew who need them for the big jobs, it also shows to me that, that guy wants to be a carp. That guy knows what he's doing, even if he doesn't know it all, it says to me that he wants to know it all. It says that this guy is or is going to be a good carp. And as we all know a good carp is hard to find. So he deserves more money and more opportunity i.e. promotions to foreman. I've always joked that if a young guy was in my office on an interview for a labourer's job and said he wanted to kill me and take my job then I'm gonna make him foreman.
You and I are thinking along the exact same line Timberline. The last kid that walked up on my job with that kind of mentality is now my partner. It's funny how things work out, doesn't it.
Somewhere, about ten years after I started with employees, I figured out that I couldn't change them. So I changed. I got tired of doing maintenance for five kids on the crew. From then on, when I hired a carpenter, I basically let them hire on and use whatever they had. If they didn't have a powersaw, that would be okay. I'd still hire them, and they were welcome to use their hand saws all day if that's what they preferred. They were still welome. They would get paid exactly the same as their peers: piecework.
I'm okay with only hanging a few doors a day and getting journeymans wages for hangin a door. What are we paying nowadays for a door, one hour or two?
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
good stuff blue, but we talking some different stuff here. We already get the impression from the OP that his boss may not be the most...rewarding type of guy to work for. " Scottish nuff said" we also know that he feels like he is bugging the other guys to use a tool that should provided for by any decent boss.
If a guy wants to bring his power tools to work fine, but he shouldn't have in order to do the job. when I was an apprentice the odd time I brought my skill saw cuz I knew I'd be ripping few hundred feet of something and I liked how it ripped with rip guide better than the makitas we had at work. but that was pretty rare. for the most part my tools stayed at home. My boss knew I had tools but he sure didn't expect me to show up to work with him. and it didn't stop him from promoting me from a labourer when I started, to running the sites when I left.
a guy should not buy tools looking to be promoted, that to me is the wrong reason to buy a tool. But I also get what you're saying You see a guy getting the tools and showing some smarts, then you want to reward him, but your a good guy to work for.
forget about the promotions, If you love what you do, and do what you love, you will absolutely fall in love with all the tools that help us to do what we love to do, and you won't be asking what tools should I buy....you will be drooling every time you go to the tool house or HD and say to yourself how do I get my hands on that tool!
alrighty,
I think a key might be in blue's mention of piece work.
If I was to be piece working I just might supply my own tools. But I have always refused that particular form of slavery. I figure piece work is subcontracting without any of the perks.
I may still bring my own stuff when it made sense to me, but never because some boss indicated I should unless he was stepping up to the plate and reimbursing me.
could be something there. I've never had the pleasure of doing piece work.
how does piece work work for apprentices?
Beats me .. I don't have any experience around it at all except one job that the GC tried to change horse in mid stream from hourly to piece. I got off the horse.
I just noticed blue's comment on the hanging of doors .
"The single most important tool you need to acquire is a 10 year savings account for yourself, not tools, or trucks, or girls, that you put a % of each check into."
This is the best advice in this thread!!!!! Do this with evey check every week no matter what . You will not miss 10% of your check. BE A FANATIC ABOUT THIS ONE.
Good luck
Chardo
Wow - thanks for all the input - very valuable. This is by far one of the most insightful and generous message boards I've had the opportunity to be part of.Let me clear up couple of points - the scottish boss is a builder - usually the home owner takes on the GC roll with heavy advice from my boss. He supplies the chop saws, air tools and table saws - and that's about it. He's not fortcoming with anything - money, blades, time off. That said he is an excellent carpenter with tons of respect in my community - it's a good horse to hitch my wagon to (small town) because he is a very good home builder and he's doing what I want to do.Also the JCs on the site are all subs the boss, I however (along with a couple of other jr guys) am an employee. "I agree, he is either an appprentice working for someone and expected to supply the basics. or he is a carp who gets PAID to bring his own tools , repair said tools , sharpen said tools by having the GC rent them from him" - dovetailThat is the sticking point I'm finding myself in - the jcs who are subing to the boss are packing their own tools - often I'm sent to do a jobs that are the same as the lead guys - let's take t and g soffit for example - I need a jig saw for fixtures, maybe a angle finder and a circle scribe - I own two out of three - can you guess which one I have to borrow?Thanks again for all the advice - I think I'll be following this idea of IdahoDons:"Bottom line is the sooner you get tooled up the faster you'll be making more money and be considered closer to a full carpenter. The quickest way to make it is dress like a carp, act like a carp, have the tools of a carp and learn as much as you can.It's not possible to be a carpenter without the tools."Oh and here's my take on these little nuggets from blue_eyed_devil:"So, what should the apprentice do if he needs to cut a line that supposedly requires a jigsaw? Pull out his coping saw and chisels. It's that simple. When the boss sees him doing a job that obviously would go faster with the proper power tools, he'll either get him the power tool or get him onto a job that he's more qualified for." -blue_eyed_devilAre you high? Do you know what my boss would say to me if he saw me coping out a circle by hand? I probably wouldn't be able to understand him with all the curse ladden gibberish and flying saliva - but I'm sure he would be pretty animated in the ways that I'm wasting his time, the home owners, the drywallers who are waiting on me, painters who are waiting on them and the floor guys who are waiting on the painters. Oh and blue_eyed_devil if I asked to borrow your knife/jigsaw/stair gages/whathaveyou and you bluntly told me "no" without an explaination of why you don't loan tools (personal investment, ensures longest life of said tool, etc etc) - I'm pretty sure I would forget your beer at the bar on friday - and your coffee at break - and helping you clean up - come to think of it, lots of things I would forget to do for you - pal. Not saying you have to loan me your tool when I ask - I'm saying you don't have to be an #### about it. Think I like borrowing tools?"Cheers from Burnaby, where are you located?"
Souther interior.Thanks again - M
"Also the JCs on the site are all subs the boss, I however (along with a couple of other jr guys) am an employee. "
This is what I suspected. and makes your situation a little unique. in the position you are in, going with Idaho's advice is a good plan. you are not in a position to be anything but an employee. and while any apprentice shouldn't have to provide anything other than whats in his belt, it is a bit of a different scenario for you. It's seems clear that you have a good attitude and are determined to make this your lasting profession.
furthermore in spite of your bosses character flaws, you have described some excellent reasons for sticking with him and learning your trade. you are willing to pay your dues and I have no doubt that you are well on your way to becoming an excellent carpenter, and then with tools in hand you can decide who you want to work for when that day comes. believe me you will be in demand/ or simply work for yourself.
if working for this guy means you gotta shell out for some extra tools (as well as putting up with a little airborne spit), In the long run it will pay off.
Tough situation. I can see your quandry, and I am all in favor of buying tools, as has been stated a carp ain't a carp without them ( coming from a certified attender of 12 step tool meetings). But you shouldn't short yourself or your family if you have one just to be buying tools
That said you might chance talking to the scotchman about your quandry.. that he asks you to perform work that requires tools that you haven't been able to acquire. Ask him if he has some used ones (or broken ones that need repair) (ask the older carps the same questions.. somebody may be willing to help , I know I have done it for young guys starting out more than once),that you could aquire so that you can do the work in a manner that is efficient and to his benifit. Hit him up when things are going well with him and the (hopefully )worse thing that will happen is that he rants a it. The best is he sees you problem and that you are actually trying to solve it and he helps out somehow.
Good Luck , before you die you will be wondering how the heck you collected so much stuff!!! Might even ask the scotch man as part of explaining your dilemna how he managed it when he was a youngster... even old scotchman have a soft spot for those trying to learn the beloved trade I bet.
Edited 2/23/2007 12:58 am ET by dovetail97128
I would suggest you re-read anything Don in Idaho posts----and also anything Blue posts.
in this case they largely told you THE SAME THING------ you just took some offense at Blues post-----in actuality he was doing you a favor.
Looks to me like you are in an excellent situation-----for where you are right now. Personally---I would have killed for your situation 25 years ago!
YOUR purpose should be to learn and EQUIP yourself for your chosen trade. Your boss doesn't have to be your best buddy for life---in the meantime you are learning your trade AND observing the more experienced guys around you.
Like it or not---the employment reality is----what can you( the employee) do for the employer?------your options as a guy with a toolbelt and maybe a drywall bucket full of odds and ends( no matter how much you know)-----are quite limmited compared to a guy with the same level of knowledge----who is also fully equipped.
in closing------ i would really suggest you read everything don says on this forum---------after a while you will notice------------the guys here who seem to be happiest with their situations in life----will exhibit MANY of the same attitudes about a lot of things---they all sound quite a bit alike.
the folks who seem kind of bitter,resentfull,and unhappy------will share many traits as well.
long term---which life do you want?
Best wishes to you----I am a bit envious of you,
stephen
Stephen
Like it or not---the employment reality is----what can you( the employee) do for the employer?
I've worked for guys like that and all the time I was there I was trying to figure out how to get away from them! Therefore they were not getting my best!
I work for a guy now that when he hands me my paycheck he thanks me - that may seam trivial to you but it means a lot.
Anybody that doesnt see the two way benifit/advantage in employee/employer is not worth working for - Of course this is just my opinion as a hired man!
Doug
Doug, I see immense value in showing appreciation for the employee. I not only thank the guys when I hand them a paycheck, but I thank them every single night as they are leaving. I take nothing for granted. I am sincere when I thank them for doing the job that day. Mostly, I'm just thanking them for their efforts.
It's a two way street too. Are the employees really understanding that their financial success is directly related to my finanacial success? If I am poor and broke, do they really expect that they will be rich? The lines between carpenter contractors and carpenters is very, very thin. We're really all in the same boat.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I do the same, I thank my help every night. I look forward to handing them their check.
When someone shows up with tools it shows me that they are serious. I offer most of them my used tools dirt cheap or free. Then I take the money and buy new ones.
This is something I wish my bosses had done when I was younger.
I already deleted one reply , but here I am disagreeing in pretty strong terms with those who think the apprentice should be tooling up for the boss. If the kid wants to buy tools for himself for safety , because he wants to be a carp then fine, but as a condition of employment... no way IMHO. The OP stated in his second post that his boss was sending im off to do the same job as the journeyman, his example was T&G soffit. Tools needed included a jigsaw. If he is doing journey men quality work then he should be being considered a journeyman, and making enough money to buy his tools if that is the standard in that area. But from his earlier post it sure didn't seem that way.
His boss is making the difference between journeymans wages and apprentices wages on the job. Boss should provide the tools.
Like blue's story told, (inspite of his comments about hiring and keeping the guy with tools because it showed enthusiasm) I have had guys roll up all tooled up and not be worth a tinkers dam , and on the other hand had guys who had nothing but the shirt on their back and kept them . It is the attitude/desire and brains that make a good carpenter, not the number of tools. (remember the old joke .. size isn't everything?)
Two years ago I had an apprentice that I tried hard to talk out of spending any money on tools. The guy was totally inept, wouldn't even have made the grade stocking shelves at HD, he didn't listen, was dangerous to be around and abused tools ( I wouldn't loan him mine after observing his treatment of them)I eventually fired him but not before he went out (against my advice) and bought about $800.00 worth of tools to show how good a carp he was going to be. He ended up having to sell the tools to pay his household bills.
If a boss of mine came up and dropped off a new saw in front of me after I used mine up on his jobs I would take the new saw home to replace MY tool investment. He certainly has made enough off of My tool investment by not having to invest in tools for HIS company that he can afford it.
If I bring a tool to work and it breaks, get worn, dull or damaged I expect the Boss to foot the bill, not me, I am a carpenter not a tool rental store. He should have been properly tooled up to run a construction company to start with and not need to borrow his helps tools to do the job. If he doesn't have the right tools in enough quantity or won't buy them he shouldn't bid the job or he should rent them .
You want me to stop by the yard and grab some 2x4 for the job... no problem , fill my gas tank and clock me in from when I leave the house. My small car can't handle the load so I need to bring my pickup and it's gas milage is 3x as bad as the car and I am not paying you for the privledge of employing me.
I started out with nothing and with a boss who thought skil saws didn't need guards (and have the scar on the side of my foot where he set his saw down and it cut though my boot, sock , flesh and bone), broken switches were common place, a transit that didn't read correctly, and drills that you had to hold the cord together in just the right way or they didn't work among a whole list of crap items he called tools. I bought my own in self defense.
(Before you all start in on your sob stories I was driving 40 miles one way and it was the only job in this feild I could find at all of $1.05 hr. non union and no bennies.) That SOB then was always on me about why didn't I bring "XYZ' to work the next day, sure would make the job easier and better. But he did retire at the age of 50 as a result of his "profits" to a really nice place. Funny thing about it was that he actually was very skilled carp and builder, just cheap. What I really do agree with is that our own tools become extensions of ourselves, safer, better cared for and ultimatly more productive. I do loan mine to people I have observed to have respect for the tool, and that I trust will make it good if there is a problem, how many tools they own or can provide is not a part of the equation, their attitude and respect is.
Handing a tool to a carp working for me is not "Loaning a tool" it is providing him the tool to do the job I am paying him to do , if I didn't bid it high enough to afford the right tools that is my problem not his. If I have to "borrow " his I somehow find a way to pay him for it.
I bought my crews their tools(saws, drills,etc) gifted them to them after they trashed mine, then offered to pay for any damage, wear, sharpening or replacement if it happened on my job and as a result of their work for me. Tools were better taken care of, and they were being paid as carps not rental stores. Small investment over time to keep good carps around. The guys knew that any time a problem occured all costs were on me.
Difficult conditions, extra effort .. You would find an extra gift on your drivers seat some night at quitting time, something you had admired or said you would like to own, maybe a block plane, new set of drill bits, whatever I thought you wished for. One form of profit sharing for those who made the profit possible. ""We both agreed that if the shoe was on the other foot, we would have accepted the piecework offer and made a fortune. No one ever offered it to us.""
So blue... , you never worked that particular form of slavery either did you .I always try to bring 100% effort to the job on every day. But somedays you might get 20% of the 100% of my wage in me having to use my own tools and 80% in brain and brawn. Thats your decision.
Edited 2/23/2007 7:44 pm ET by dovetail97128
Well argued. I guess its just part of how you see the people around you. Frankly, I don't really want to spend all my working time with guys whose only thought is bettering themselves. It started first in competative sports and its corrosive effects - the lack of loyalty to teams, and general narcissism - are now spreading to all other activities.
On another note, I do have some sympathy for the Scottish boss. Many of you may not know how difficult it is to be saddled with this affliction. I have spent years battling this particular inheritance, and I can assure you its not easy. I can't bring myself to order enough materials, and always end up going back for more. Tiling is always an anxious job for me, worrying in case I break more than the two or three extras I have bought. Even tool shopping, which should be a source of unmitigated pleasure, is largely ruined for me by my DNA. Its not as much fun being cheap as it may seem.
Blue
It's a two way street too. Are the employees really understanding that their financial success is directly related to my finanacial success?
ON the average I'd say NO, they dont understand it!
I came back to Iowa to work for the same guy that I did when I left - it was only meant to be temporary but the guy that replaced me when I left had that same attitude that you and I have seen a thousand times - the owner is making all kinds of money so screw him, doesnt matter wheather I stand around and talk all day and do nothing, sneak out of work early, give 50% effort for 100% pay, hes still going to make his money!
Well my boss got fed up with it and fired his azz, there were other reasons that I dont want to mention on here but that was the straw that broke the proverbial camels back.
Now I have a full time/permanate job so I guess it worked out for me but I always wonder what the hell is going on in these guys heads, do they really think the bosses are raking in the dough! I think my boss charges around $50-52 an hour on me and I get less then 1/2 that plus bennies so I know that he's not hauling all the profits to the bank in a wheel barrow.
You mention that you thank your employees for their efforts and also when you pay them - its simple things like that that make an employee feel some sort of conection to the business and want it to prossper.
I know I want my boss to make a boat load of money cause I know he'll share it with me!
Doug
doug----it doesn't seem trivial to me at all
AND----I think we would both agree------it's much easier to get OUT of that employment situation with skills AND your own tools.
best wishes,
stephen
how does piece work work for apprentices?
It all depends upon what stage of apprenticship they are in. In theory, the price paid out for each part of a house remains the same. If you are fast, you make more. If you are slow, you make less. Essentially, your speed and skill define you and create your actual worth.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
But I have always refused that particular form of slavery. I figure piece work is subcontracting without any of the perks.
I wouldn't be so fast to call it slavery. It all depends upon what the compensation is, doesn't it?
Quite a few years ago, I was working with a very good carpenter. Very good is an understatement. He was/is the best framer I ever worked with. Anyways, labor was short and the only guys looking for work were the hardcore losers of the trade....chemical dependent, always in jail for whatever....you know the type. So, we basically just decided that we wouldn't bother hiring anyone. We really didn't need anyone because we were standing up the houses as fast as any of the four or five man crews in the subs anyways. We liked the peace and quiet. We didn't have to answer questions. We didn't have to loan tools. We didn't have to wonder if someone would show up. In a nutshell, we were two happy carpenters, equal in our abilities, but different and we had a good time laughing all day, making good money.
One day, an old employee of mine moved back to MI and called on me. He was a good guy, but a terrible carpenter. He was all tooled up with more tools than I would ever think of bringing to a rough frame jobsite. But, he lacked the common sense needed to do this basic elementary task: frame houses. But, we talked it over and decided that we could use all the help we could get, but we weren't willing to subsidize someone that wasn't as committed as we were to getting the job done. So we came up with a very basic offer to him. We offered him piecework. I don't remember exactly the prices, but I think it was $6 per sheet of wall sheating or flooring, and $8 per sheet of roof ply. He agreed.
The next day, he and his girlfriend showed up and struggled mightily on one side of a garage roof. At the end of the day, they had layed 6 0r 8 sheets of roof ply. We owed them about $50 for the day.
The next day after that, he did about the same. This went on for some time.
At some point, we parted company. Obviously he wasn't cut out for the job. He never got there at 7am when we did. He always had reasons why he couldn't get there, but the end result was this. When we calculated how much we made, using his piecework rates, we ALWAYS made over $60 per hour. We would routinely laugh about 8 am and declare "I got my 8 sheets layed....I'm going home for the day"!
We both agreed that if the shoe was on the other foot, we would have accepted the piecework offer and made a fortune. No one ever offered it to us.
You might call this slavery, but I think I'd have loved to be a slave to what we'd have had to do....we'd have to slave every day as we made our way to the bank to make the deposits!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
LOL, I knew I'd have more to say in this thread!
If a guy wants to bring his power tools to work fine, but he shouldn't have in order to do the job. when I was an apprentice the odd time I brought my skill saw cuz I knew I'd be ripping few hundred feet of something and I liked how it ripped with rip guide better than the makitas we had at work.
a guy should not buy tools looking to be promoted, that to me is the wrong reason to buy a tool.
Lets take the last line first: I vehemently disagree. When I see a guy tooling up, even if it's premature (perhaps he's not ready for the tools that he's buying and he's making poor choices) I see a guy that is serious about his trade. He instantly moves into my "inner circle". Even if I don't instantly come across with money on his paycheck, I'll be a whole lot more inclined to share some of my secrets with him. Why? Because we have something in common. We both understand that it will take more than an eight hour a day committment to become the best carpenter that he can be. I know if he's going to make the financial commitment at such a young age in his career, he probably will make some more sacrifices, such as time sacrifices...meaning he might pick up a copy of fine homebuilding at home and read a bit too.
Basically, guys that tool up stand out in the pack. I see them as shining stars. They are mavericks. They see what the old grizzled vets are doing and they are trying to emulate them.
So, how fast can they rise? Well, I don't know how it is in Canada, but here in America they can rise plenty fast. There really isn't any limit. They limit themselves. Certainly, we all agree that a lack of tools is a negative, eh?
Now, onto the second paragraph. The key sentence in there is "I liked how it ripped better than the makitas". My question to you is this: Did you do better work with the makitas, or your own personal saw?
If you answer " the makitas", then you are off the hook. If you answer "my own personal saw", then I would ask you a second question: "Why would you go to work every day, doing a job at less than 100%?
For me, it was important to become intimate with my tools. Every tool of mine became one with me, the being. We were and still are inseparable. Many of the tools I used and situations that I was in were/are extremely dangerous and it is my firm belief that the more intimate I am with my tools, the better and safer I work.
I think that the unions are very good in some respects but they had it wrong on this particular issue. Instead of making it a rule that contractors had to supply tools, they should have made the contractor pay the carpenter enough so that he could afford to buy his own.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Blue I don't really disagree with you.
To me If a guy goes out and gets the tools because he loves what he does and can't keep his hands off the tools, has a head on his shoulders along with a good attitude. in the end he'll get rewarded - perhaps not by present employer, but by someone, if not his own self.
I just never looked at trying to get promoted as a reason to buy tools.I bought cuz tools kick butt! they are fun to have and help me to do what I love to do. I started out at bottom as you can get with company. when I started out ( not a union by the way) I got paid dirt. had new wife to support, cummuted 4 hours a day to get to my job, had night job. cuz I wasn't getting paid enough with my day job starting out at the bottom as I did. don't know how many times I nearly drove off the road I was so tired. In fact I once did fall asleep at the wheel and hit another car.
People thought I was crazy for traveling so far and working for so cheep. But in the end It paid off. within a few years I was already overseeing other guys, and after 6 years my boss wanted me to take over running the crew full time as they expanded the company into construction management. and now were finally paying me accordingly. But I paid my dues, cummuting and working for dirt pay beacuse I recognized the value of what I was learing, working on high end homes with highly skilled guys.
But never once did I buy a tool thinking or even hoping it would get me a promotion. I get what you are saying, and dont' have anything against it. I Think really we are looking for the same things in a guy, just think about it a little differerntly.
"I think that the unions are very good in some respects but they had it wrong on this particular issue. Instead of making it a rule that contractors had to supply tools, they should have made the contractor pay the carpenter enough so that he could afford to buy his own. "
awesome! I'd love that - a tool allowance! only problem I see is I've seen alot of kids come from the apprentice program that shouldn't even be allowed near tools or contstrction in general. I dont' know where they get some of these kids but some of them have no clue and giving them money to buy tools would be a huge waste. but for a guy like ripperathome, it would be money well invetsed, and I sure would have liked it!
awesome! I'd love that - a tool allowance! only problem I see is I've seen alot of kids come from the apprentice program that shouldn't even be allowed near tools or contstrction in general. I dont' know where they get some of these kids but some of them have no clue and giving them money to buy tools would be a huge waste. but for a guy like ripperathome, it would be money well invetsed, and I sure would have liked it!
I do think we are on similar pages Alrightythen.
For the last decade, I supplied power and air. When Frank started running the jobs, he was a softy, just I used to be in my early years of framing and all of a sudden, the job boxes were filled with huge piles of junky tools. I knew Frank wasn't doing any of those kids any favors, but he felt he was doing the right thing by letting them use his (our) stuff. It would be quite comical though when I'd step in a run a job. All of a sudden, the guys would show up on my job and ask me where the glue gun was for the deck. I'd tell them I have one in my tool box and they were welcome to get in their trucks and head over the Home Depot and buy their own. Or, they could wait till I had time to run the decking and they could nail it off behind me.
The difference is that Frank was willing to work with kids who weren't interestee in investing in their careers, and I wasn't. I didn't care that every one of those yahoos would leave the jobsite and never come back because they thought I was being too tough of a boss. The guys that understood me and worked with me learned a few things, things that are worthwhile to know. They also made enough money to compensate for their efforts. More than once I'd walk up and toss a brand new tool down onto the deck for the guys that had tooled up and I'd tell him "Here, why don't you take this new saw and put yours in the truck as a back up." I wasn't letting him use a company tool, I was GIVING him a replacement for the one he wore out on my job!
Sometimes you have to invest in yourself and I see tooling up as an investment, not an expense. Some of the younger guys understand this, others dont. Guess which guys I prefer to work with?
Oh, by the way, did I mention what Frank did on the day he interviewed with me? He came to me from a tool and die shop and told me he wanted to learn how to build houses. I said fine....it's probably a big mistake but come in tomorrow and bring some tools to work with. He studied everything I had and walked up the next day with my exact same rigging, including saw and cord. He immediately bought a pickup too when I explained that guys with trucks were more valuable than a guy with a Pinto, if all other things were equal.
I don't know if Frank made the right choice, but he does love building houses!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Blue, the ten % comment is the best advise ever. I noticed that Ripper didn't comment....lol. I once had the privalige of teaching apprentices in Ontario for a brief stint and this is one thing I passed on. I think it is something that is very hard to learn for one's self and it seems most of us just have to feel the pain for ourselves.
The logic in my mind is that unless we are very, very lucky we will go through lean times. I have seen (and been) young men in great shock when a job just stops...along with a paycheck. This usually for no fault of your own. Down turn, illness, retirement or death of an employer, or oneself, intolerable conditions, material shortages, concrete truck strikes and a thousand different real reasons can disrupt a construction workers income.
Someone mentioned being enslaved. I know of no better way to be trapped in a job unable to take advantage of opportunities than not having a reserve of money.
I had to learn this the hard way. I have tried to pass this on to every young guy who was worth his salt I have worked with. I usually get the blank look. (Old guy must have lost his marbles! I need a new truck and a chick troller car and need to buy all my non-conformist uniform and toys! I won't have any friends if I don't buy the beer....add-nauseum.) (know that's what they are thinking cause I thought the same thing and worse.)
Just to make it clear...always put the first 10% of all your income in a "never touch" account. When you have enough take enough out to put in an "emergency fund" equal to 3 months expenses...everything. keep up the 10% the rest of your life.
As for borrowing tools. I lend my tools. I have rules..must let me know first...must come back if you are done with it...right away. If it is lost or broken I want it fixed or new in my hand in the morning. If you are still borrowing it after a few weeks..it is time to buy your own. On some jobs I just say no. If I don't think you can use it carefully and safely...you don't get it.
I think you will find out why along the way after you have lent a few of your special tools.
No one needs to lend his tools it is the responsibility of the apprentice to buy them or get them from the employer. If someone lets you use their tools you should be grateful. If they don't , they don't it's not personal. No tradesman needs you to buy them a beer.
Great advise on tools, I would only add that you buy the best tools and take the time to learn everything you can.
I commend you on your commitment to take an apprenticeship. I am working in South Florida right now and I see the problems of no app. system here. Wish you well Ripper.
Hey Bob, someone else made that 10% suggestion. I wish I had learned and followed that myself.
I do have a comment about your rules of lending comment. You said "As for borrowing tools. I lend my tools. I have rules". I think I should mention that I'm not the big hard azz that I seem to be. I also loan tools. My criteria for lending tools is this: I'll lend you anything I have, if you own one yourself and for some reason you forgot to bring it, or it's not available right now.
At first glance, that idea seems absurd. Why would I only loan tools to someone who has them? The answer speaks for itself. First, the guy obviously knows how much it costs to buy tools and he will then be prepared to make me whole if something goes wrong. For instance, if Pete comes to me and asks to use my sawzall, and Pete doesn't own a sawzall, I will not let him borrow mine. I will however, offer to go to my truck, get my sawzall, and sawzall the thing that he needs sawzalled. On the other hand, if Pete owns a sawzall and perhaps left it home on the workbench, and asks to borrow mine, I will gladly lend it. If he brings it up to the top plate and it falls off and breaks on the concrete below, I will at least be assured that he will hand my his tomorrow and make me whole.
All this is good and well. The question is: should I feel sorry for a poor apprentice that doesn't have a sawzall? Other guys can, I just dont. Let them do the things that they have the tools for. They have strong backs...let them hump wood. They have hammers, let them pound nails. They have nailpullers, let them pull nails. If they are smart enough to have a broom, let them sweep. When they tire of these mindless jobs, they'll buy a framing square and talk framing square talk to me. They'll buy a sawzall and enter the world of fixing stuff. They'll buy a saw and actually get to cut important parts for the house.
If they don't want to take part in all this fun, thats okay with me. I'll evaluate what they get done and pay them accordingly. Or, they can plunk down their 50k and go to college and get a real job. They don't have 50k? No problem..join the army and get college credits. That's what I used to tell my kids.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
People thought I was crazy for traveling so far and working for so cheep. But in the end It paid off. within a few years I was already overseeing other guys, and after 6 years my boss wanted me to take over running the crew full time as they expanded the company into construction management. and now were finally paying me accordingly. But I paid my dues, cummuting and working for dirt pay beacuse I recognized the value of what I was learing, working on high end homes with highly skilled guys.
I'm sure we are on the same page Alrightythen.
Many of the tradesmen I've worked with are kinda funny in some ways. One of the ways that I think they are funny is that they think their employer should supply them with all trappings that will make them great carpenters. They think that magically, this will all happen between the hours of 7am and 3:30 pm and they don't think they need to invest any more time or effort in their own development.
Contrast that to those that attend a four year college program. My own kids spent close to 100 grand each on their college education and invested four years. The average carpenter apprentice that started with me was appalled to think that he should have to invest 100 in a power saw and expected journeyman wages after 6 months LOL!
The OP asks if he should sacrifice and buy tools, or continue borrowing them. I think either option is right. One way will lead down a path of independence and financial freedom. The other ties him to someone else's dreams and he becomes a pawn that is easily disposed of. The choice is his. He can ridicule my suggestions, or he can look a little deeper and see if there is a nugget of wisdom.
For the record, I spent many hours in all the local shops agonizing over each of my hand tool decisions. I knew every hardware and tool shop between my home and my jobs when I was an apprentice. Yes, I bought beer and cigarettes too, but I also plunked down a hard earned twenty dollars and had a Sears Roebuck tool box and starting mechanics set too. I never had to ask a journeyman to borrow his socket and wrench when we were bolting up the splice plates on the beams. Those decisions were hard, just like the bigger decisions we all make every day later on in our careers. This OP is asking a great question. He now has several paths to choose. I know which one I'd pick.
blue
ps, I still have the tool box and tools...they're pretty beat up, but they get the job done."...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
they should have made the contractor pay the carpenter enough so that he could afford to buy his own.
It California, at least, that was OSHA rules.
I always took my own power tools to the job, because I was one with them (|:>) Actually, I can use any toll laying around and get a decent job done, but my tools were always sharper, truer and slicker than whatever the boss or any other worker had.
Much nicer to work with well kept tools. Safer too. I lost 4 fingers to someone elses slightly bent SkilSaw shaft
Being shaftedSamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Sam, that is EXACTLY why I used to bring my own saw! In those days, we only used steel blades. After framing a few years with the junk saws and poorly maintained blades I realized that I could do significantly better work if I started and ended the day with a GREAT saw. If I spent a few hours cleaning, oiling, sharpening, tuning and fixing a company saw, someone would grab it. If it was mine, I could tell them no.
Safety is certainly part of my thought process on this subject. I believe that a man should use the same saw every day and know it intimately. They shouldn't be grabbing and using a porter cable if they are most familiar with a makita. People tend to put their hands and fingers in the same place and if you stick them in the wrong place, they get cut off.
Tell me more about your digital losses.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Tell me more about your digital losses
They put them back on.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
nice!"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
blue,
i will almost certainley phrase this poorly---but
when you spotted( what's his name? Frank??)--anyhow-when you spotted Frank--------------
I suspect that what you really spotted was a guy who was " proactive"---a guy who either didn't like the situation he was in----or at least envisioned a different situation------and was prepared to make the changes required to change that situation. the tool accumulation is just an allegory( is that the right word?) for that attitude or personality trait.
contrast that with" I shouldn't have to, I shouldn't have to ,that's not my responsibility, the boss otta...,It's not fair,It's not fair, the mexicans are taking our jobs------------- fill in your own blanks!"
I have a brother who is a teamster. he is a decent guy AND he is MUCH smarter than I am---but he has that attitude of" I shouldn't have to, the company otta, that's not my job " etc.---there was a time 20 years ago when I seriously envied his take home pay( I was making $4.50/hour)
but I have watched him for 20 years------and the whole time he fights" I shouldn't have to, the company is cheating me, they should supply etc."
i have done work for at least a couple of his co-workers-----and it's the SAME attitude
Meanwhile-- NOW I can go out OFTEN in a decent 10 hour day make more in one day than he makes in a week------the 2 different attitudes are NOT compatible
I don't think I am any better than my brother---but I couldn't work in that enviorment-----and he wouldn't last a day in Mine.
Perhaps we all find the situation that best fits our individual "psychosis"
BTW----- I would have taken that sheeting piece work arrangement in a nanosecond.
Best wishes, stephen
"I love a guy who has his own stuff. Especially a young guy. Not because it saves my tools from getting beaten,but because that kid's a go getter. "
Amen to that.
EDIT: somehow I clicked blueyeddevil isntead of "all" - maybe we'll hear from ol' blue eyes :)
what's all this talk about borrowing? if a guy is using his own tools on a job it should be because he wants too. or becuase he is paid accordingly to do so.
I think ( correct me if I'm wrong) most you guys are bosses from the sounds of it. you got say 7 guys on a crew so each guy gotta bring his own sawzall? or you gotta borrow the other guys? or how bout we set up 3 or 4 SCM's, and a few tables saws to boot. does the boss not provide these kinda things where you guys are?
If you're set up where your guys supply all there own tools, fine, long as they're getting paid for it.
Also here in Canada, supplying the tools is one of the distinctions of an employer. an apprentice can not be deemed as a subcontractor for other reasons, which is another reason he should not have to provide his own tools. ( aside from the basics)
if ripperathome buys all these extra tools it should because he wants to for his own use, perhaps he plans to do his own jobs/work for himself someday, like many of us. in that case it's good to collect them slowly as one needs and can afford them. if he brings em to the job it should be because he wants to. he shouldn't feel that should have bug anyone for tools to learn his trade. and if suppling his own tools is how it is where he works he should get paid extra for the Boss not having to put out for the tools required to do a job that puts money in his pocket.
Edited 2/22/2007 12:05 pm ET by alrightythen
Edited 2/22/2007 12:07 pm ET by alrightythen
I will weigh in on this topic because over the years I've done it many different ways as an employer and an employee.
First, let me explain that I apprenticed on a union crew. We were not required to supply any power tools or anything that wouln't fit into a 28" tool box. I still have my tool box that I built in apprentice school. Some day, I'll post a picture of it.
Anyways, at some point in my apprenticeship, I came to a realization: if I never acquire the same tools that my employer has, I'll never be able to do all the things that he does. Without tools, I was enslaved to him. I could not be independent. He held power over me.
Of course, my solution to that was to acquire tools and therefore ensure my independence.
When an apprentice takes on a trade, he begins to learn a skill. At some point, he's skilled. He's not an apprentice anymore. He is then known as a "journeyman". The reality though is that a journeyman without tools can't really journey can he? Sure, he can journey to another employer....another guy that lords over him, but is this what a carpenter really wants?
I dont know the answer to that because for each of us the answer is different. I knew I wanted total freedom and total indepence so I started my tool collection early in my apprenticeship. I stayed with my mentor for seven years despite my ability to "journey". I stayed because it was my choice.
While I stayed, I used my own power tools. I no longer had to use my employers choice of saws, sawzalls or routers. I no longer had to grab the only saw available because the wily ole journeymen beat me to the truck that morning. I was very proud of my first powersaw even though it was a pile of portercable/rockwell plastic junk LOL!
Now to answer the OPs question as an employer: Don't you dare borrow someone elses personal tools! I've had many guys like you ask to borrow something so minor like a utility knife. I have a very simple and minor answer: "No." I'll let you figure out why I answer like that. Yes, you will take offense, but I don't care. I take offense that you would be so lame as to ask to borrow the tool!
So, what should the apprentice do if he needs to cut a line that supposedly requires a jigsaw? Pull out his coping saw and chisels. It's that simple. When the boss sees him doing a job that obviously would go faster with the proper power tools, he'll either get him the power tool or get him onto a job that he's more qualified for.
More to come....
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I'm amazed at the first few posts here that expect an apprentice to provide his own compressor and guns, jig saw, sawzall etc. thats just BS. a well outfitted pouch and bucket of hand tools is all that should be expected unless you have an under$tanding with the general. its his project and his investment not yours.
I worked as a union apprentice and journeyman for a few years in Ct. even the journeymen were forbidden from bringing their own power tools on a union job. it was the GC's obligation to supply those things.
the theory was one guy should'nt be passed over for work because the next guy was supplying a construction company. those guys would kill you for violating that rule. anyone would'nt be caught without a legitimate collection of hand tools though, that'd be cause for dismissal
I know things are different in the private sector. the only thing I want my help to bring is their sorry azzes on time.
When I started out, if I borrowed a tool during the day, I went and bought that tool that night.
All I ever expected of my employees were for them to have good hand tools. The rest I supplied.