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I have recently purchased a small house built in 1952. It is structurally sound but needs cosmetic updating inside. I need to know if there is a way to tell if the trim has been painted with an oil base or a latex paint. Also can I use oil based enamel over latex. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank-you.
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I bought a banana grove established in 1845, I need to know if the bananas are ripe yet........what in the name of all that is holy possesed that last post???????????????????????????
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April Fools?
*David,I am not sure how to say exactly what I mean, but this is close... I think the biggest mistake you made was giving a very long and detailed answer to the question. You probably would have been much better off if you had answered thier question with one of your own... "Well who do you think builds houses ?" (While a chef or a prosecutor, a vetrinarian or a fisherman could certainly build thier own house, houses by and large are built by carpenters.)By giving the prolonged answer you gave them reason to think that you weren't sure of the fact yourself, and if you weren't sure, then why would they be ?Live and learn.View ImageYou sound like a good carpenter, at that. Good to meet ya.
*Keith,That is some seriously funny stuff!!! That guy needs to visit the "elite clique" thread http://webx.taunton.com/WebX?13@@.ee8fbb7.Tom
*Hey Fred, Much of my question was inspired by reading Breaktime messages, as well as talking in the field. I never found the answer you said was there only more questions. If we discount the messages that deal with the mechanics of doing business, one common thread which seems to be just below the surface is the growing lack of craft in the trade and there seems to be more and more discussions and articles about using alternatives to wood for building. I recall one discussion about any one using a framing square. Call me a dinosour but it bothers me. It also bothers me that so much of what we build today ( to avoid injurying anyone's ego, I say we in generic sense) is poor quality at best with no artistic craft. We and here I include myself, are driven more by economic restraints than by creativity. People want more quantity for ther money than quality so we end up with drywall wrapped jambs, carpeted floors and painted MDF trim. My question was perhaps worded wrong. Perhaps I should have chosen a better day to address this issue than 1April. Perhaps it does not bother you. I know I probably need some time off but after thirty years of building, I can't imagine starting a new career especially with a family to support. So I bitch to some seemingly knowledgable and talented bros.P.S I searched through the archieves and found nothing on "Ask the homeowner" Any other leads? Luka, You are probably correct. In hindsight I should have told them to get real and walked immediately. But I was taken aback by her questions and lost my perspective. Also I am human and wanted the job as the two bids they requested both came in @ $250000. That would have been some job security. Hey if I seem fiesty tonight I just returned home from a father-daughter dance of 60-70s music and they played no Pink Floyd. I had to dance to 2hrs of disco. Careful with that axe, eugene. To all of you there in cyber-land walk good. I'll tell you another story. I was finishing up the trim and cabinets on a new coffee shop. The counters had just been installed, beautiful slabs of 1-3/4 inch granite from the Black Hills. This stylishly dressed gal comes walking in admiring the work and inquires about the counter. I explain to her it is granite. Her response was, " that's amazing. It looks just like Corian"
*Aye! David now you wouldn't let one misdirected couple undo what has taken You three decades to build would you? I bet not. I know where You are coming from, but some of the things you mentioned ( TJI's for example and MDF trim have their place. My belief is there will be a sorting out in the industry and we will end up being carpenters or installers , though our ages may eliminate us from the shakeout. I'm like You and like the name? title? description ? of carpenter as truest to what i do and am capable of. Skip ps. Yes we are still carpenters!
*Hey Skip,Can I borrow a carpenters' pencil ?
*David, I served a formal union apprenticeship, and learned about many different types of materials that carpenters historically use, and still use today. Plastic, steel, wood, tile, etc. Carpentry is not woodworking, and woodworking is not carpentry. Yes we are all mechanics, often wood mechanics, but the many other materials that we use do not make us less of a carpenter.As for your lost bid: did you ever inquire why you lost the job?Personally, I think most people would feel more secure with a "builder" than a carpenter. I am a carpenter, and can't really find the time to build someone a house; I'm too busy framing something somewhere.If you are indeed a builder, then include it in your formal business name, or a brief description that follows. Don't fault the homeowners for questioning your credentials, when they are searching for a builder, after all, they are making a very large investment. They probably wanted someone that "builds" 100% of the time, not a dabbler. i don't blame them. When I go to the dentist, I don't want some guy who occasionally drills teeth, I want the real deal.Just my take.Out.blue (Rome clone)
*Hey David, It's often difficult to come up with a good quick response to a customers comments or questions without having time to think about the best way to reply back, especially if the comments or questions are a bit out of the ordinary.I always say to myself that if I could have thought about it I surely could have given a better answer.The most bizarre question I think I ever got was from a customer that I was building a set of cabinets for. We sat down together and went over all the details several times. When it came time for them to sign the contract, I mentioned that I required a 50% deposite. At this point my customer left the room and returned minutes later with cash. He was getting ready to sign the contract and hand over the cash after counting it out, when he said he had one final question for me. He wanted me to answer what I would do since he is paying me 50% and I were to start work on his cabinets and then all of a sudden I died. How would he still get his cabinets or how would he get his money back. I have to tell you I was really uncertain as to how to answer his question. I ended up telling him that I have a competitor that could finish the job, but probably not as well as I would, and tried to laugh it off. He then wanted the competitor's name and phone number.I have never had anyone ask me that question, and am sure if I had more time I would have answered differently.As it turned out I finished the job and everything did go smoothly. You just never know what kind of questions a customer might come up with. Some guys are good at coming up with good quick answers; unfotuneately, I'm not one of them.
*What a crock. You're a carpenter because that's what you call a skilled craftsman who builds with wood. You don't need to justify it. If someone asks if you build houses, say "yes, that's exactly what I do." If they ask why your biz name says "carpentry", tell them it's because "nude male dancer" took too long to say on the answering machine.But I'll add something to this carpentry thing: I had a finish trim guy do a call back recently and he showed up without his nail gun. I gave him a hammer. He stood there for about a minute, looking at it, wondering if he was ready to give it a go and could use it without causing damage. Now, is HE a carpenter? How many of you guys have found some young guys unable to hit a nail anymore?SHG
*David, Times change and we all have to change with them or we get lost in the past. 30 years ago you didn't sit in front of a computer and have discussions about what a carpenter is either. Most of the craftsmen, and women, who do not embrace modern materials, methods, and tools will get pased by. Technology is better today and many of these man made products are supperior to the "natural" ones they replace.
*I am not trying to stir up trouble here,so I hope nobody takes offense----but I am kind of curious about the self confidence level of carpenters.Every so often I see threads here like " Am I a carpenter?" Or " What does it take to be a Master Carpenter" etc. What I am wondering is-----how come the electricians out there don't wonder if they are electricians? The plumbers seam pretty confident that they are plumbers,and don't worry about whether they are "master plumbers"(of course they have their BMW's to re-assure them.) As a roofer I know I can always learn new techniques and learn about new materials but I never doubt that I am a roofer. So what is it with carpentry that causes tradesmen such self doubt?Another thing I am thinking about is that Dave kind of asked 2 questions---the 2nd one being about how to respond when a prospect openly questions your ability to handle a project.I think it was Luka who mentioned that your response was too long. I agree. If someone questioned me in the same way I would simply say"well,I have done hundreds of roofs----some are very similar to your project.Why don't you go look at one I did on xyz street last year and see what you think? " Then I would move on to the next consideration.Simply imply that your competence is a given. A 45 minute discourse about your thoughts on wood fiber and craftsmanship will not inspire confidence,but might rather radiate uncertainty.No one really asked me questions of this type when I was starting out,and by the time anyone did I had a track record to point to.Granted ,It may be easier for me since I only have to convince people to part with a few thousand dollars and your project was $250,000. I think if you had said something like"I have been building and remodeling houses for about 30 years now" it would have summed it all up for you.Any how,no offense intended---I hope none taken.Good Luck All,Stephen
*David:Not to be disrespectful, but I can understand the homeowner's question about whether carpenter=builder. Much of homebuilding involves skills other than working with wood, and I would want someone building a house for me to have a working knowledge of plumbing, electrical work, HVAC, foundation preparation, masonry, roofing, etc., if only to be able to keep the subs from screwing up.IMHO, a good answer would have been "it's the name of my company, but if you have any doubts about our abilities, let me give you the names and phone numbers of some satisfied customers, and by the way here are some photographs of our recently completed projects".
*Dag nab it SHG, I have to agree with you again! About 2 years ago, the brother of my summer helper came to work with us for a couple weeks. This guy had been carpentering for a few years and agreed to start at what seemed an appropriate rate, with the agreement we'd negotiate after a trial period. So I have him work with me for a few days so I could kind of assess his skills and you are exactly right, he couldn't drive nails to save his life. He knew the trade a little bit, could see the next step, measure and cut, even had a few good ideas, decent mid level type guy, but he was so used to using a nail gun he simply wasn't good at driving nails. It was a real eye opener to me. The funny part is, I still would have kept him on, but he decided to go elsewhere.
*2 observations/comments. 1) have any of the rest of you noticed that some of your customers have taken this homebuilding thing to the bank. I mean they know what quality is but, they want cheap that looks good, so they can sell in 2-5 years for a great profit, so they can move up to eventually get quality. I feel like I'm building a mutual fund instead of a house, and it does take alittle of the fun out of it.So you feel like"slap it together, they aren't looking for your craftsmanship, they just want the appriciation in a few years". 2)The nail gun hammer thing "oh yeah" some of these kids are a gas. They will drag out the compressor for every damn thing. I'm not much on wasting time, but there have been days when I'll accidentally leave the air in the shop(tired of the noise) and make them nail walls together by hand. I THOUGHT nintendo was supposed to increase the hand eye coordination.Oh boy...love those black nails they sport for a few months.....takes the wind out of there young gun sails huh??
*I lost a good house building job once because of something similar. The customer who had been given my name by another happy customer, interviewed me during which he asked pointedly, "Why should I hire you?" I reminded him why I had been referred to him and, that I had considerable experience. He looked at my book, but after taking a list of current references, he noticed that my business card said Cabinetmaking & Carpentry.(in smaller print i Designer/Builder-Renovation, Restoration, New Construction)He said, "Oh. .. you're a cabinetmaker." I replied, ". .. and also a carpenter. He said "I'm not sure I should be hiring a cabinetmaker to build me a house." I replied, " I know when to do carpentry, and when to do cabinetmaking. . . I never frame walls with sliding dovetail dadoes". He nodded solemnly and said, "I see". I knew right then I would not be called back, and I wasn't.The card now says "Carpentry & Cabinetmaking". -pm
*David... if you did read all the posts that FredB was alluding to, then you must have missed the point...especially in the business section...you blew it...you didn't have a game plan about how to turn your hard work, putting together your bid, into a signed contract with a deposit, you probably didn't have any strategy in your head at all...i know..been there... took many lean years to figger out , hey, now i got all these skills as a what am i going to do with them, how do i present myself so people will hire me and my to build their project....it's not your god-given right , you know...see i propbably wouldn't have hired you either, cause you didn't demonstrate competence in BUILDING the house.....i can walk onto any constructin site and find better carpenters than me, and a hell of a lot worse, too! but not many out there can put a project together and execute it to the customers EXPECTATIONS better than me...you've got to rethink this... if i want a car, i don't hire a master mechanic, and it doesn't matter what you call yourself.... it matters if people CALL YOU, and then what you do with that sales opportunity.... you don't make the sale, you don't get to demonstrate you or your men's skills...you want woodworking... go over to .. you want stick around...b your brother in the trades, MIKE
*David:Thanks for your post. In fact I think you are asking several questions. The first one has to do with your business, getting customers, keeping them happy and making a profit on it. That is the focus of my response. The "Ask A Homeowner" thread is still current I think.A second question, if I read you correctly, has to do with how you see yourself. As you probably have figured out I have been very fortunate to have had more than one career in my life. So maybe it is easier for me than others. But I never see myself as a "carpenter", or an "electrician", or "a teacher". I see myself as an individual who is making a living doing whatever I'm doing at the time. And I will do whatever will bring the maximum return on the time and talents I invest. That is each person's obligation to themself and their family.A third question has to do with the customers not appreciating the fine quality work you do and in general going for what is most economical rather than what is "best". Well, it is their money. People generally will spend their money to bring maximum satisfaction to themselves. If you don't agree with their choices; educate them! I seldom meet someone who will go counter to their knowledge and just throw away a major part of their fortune. So, don't wait for someone else to educate them. Go out there and do it yourself and reap the profits for doing so.
*Sand well. If in doubt, use a bonding agent.
*First off, I would like to thank everyone for their imput in this discussion. It is good to have feed-back from other people. As a whole, I suspect you represent a pretty talented and consciencious crew of carpenters. The point of the story was not a question of business. Perhaps that is why I failed to get the answer from the other discussions, that Fred B and Mike refer to. I had presented this couple with a list of references and a resume of my work. When she asked me if I could build their house I answered yes, and briefly explained my experience through my resume. It was not a question about my abilities so much as a semantic one regarding my choice of Carpentry rather than another word. That is where the time went. It seems they could not accept the choice of word. That is history. I apologize if there was confusion in what I was saying. I learned carpentry and building in northern New England. There carpentry was synonomous with building a house as well as other craft such as cabinets, roofing, maybe furniture building, etc. I can now understand that my regional and perhaps dated understanding of the term carpentry is not universal. I try to maintain that original spirit of the word in my business. A couple of these post refered to working with multiple materials and in regards to housewrights, multiple trades. I agree and those early years of learning, ( for that matter I am still learning) involved just about everything. In the past I have acted as carpenter, mason,electrician, plumber, painter, banker and candlestick maker. The question I was asking had nothing to do with me so much as trying to stimulate discussion on how other carpenters/builders look at things. That question most of you answered indirectly, a few directly; if my reading is correct, no it does not bother you using manufactured or engineered wood products. A few of you seem to find it better. That could be another whole discussion or more likely a continuing one which should probably done over several good bottles of wine. Another aspect of my question had to do with skill, craftmanship and artistic creativity. Again there has been many other postings on this subject. I was just trying to connect them all together and posing it as a single thought. As a group, we carpenters/builders are an egotistical bunch of people. I know I am. I have no doubts about my abilities to swing a hammer or liason with sub-contractors and finish a house. I think we all need abit of that to succeed in this trade. Maybe we become masters of a trade when the trade no longer masters us. walk good david
*Rack him.
*David,You have the honor of calling yourself a carpenter AND a builder. That means a lot. I know very few builders that are carpenters, and it shows. You've got a head start above the rest.How many plumbers do you know that became sucessful builders? How about electricans or roofers? Not many. Carpenters can become builders as a logical next step because we are involved with the whole house, and that's the way it should be. I don't know many builders that can become carpenters. It takes too long. To be a builder in Dallas, all you have to do is call yourself a builder and pay the fee for the licence. That's it.Good luck,Ed. Williams
*Good points all around gentlemen. The basic premise is..."claim to be an expert in many things....people never buy it". We are all cynical, so don't buck the odds. I have 2 company names, 3 portfolios, and 3 sets of cards. Not to mention the 2 websites...soon to be 3. I don't expect people to believe my many talents. I don't doubt that there are many similar animals out there, you guys are quite the talented bunch, brilliant is a better discriptive word. When it comes down to it, we are not selling to geniuses very often, so tell them what they want to hear. Everyone is looking to have an expert. Just because we happen to be experts in a few different fields...is no reason for us to be penalized. Obviously, our clients, once they see what we build, will never be disapointed with our product....so go get the job.L
*Yep You got it, in fact the first one's free but you gotta sharpen it with your razor knife ( or if Youre real hard core with your pocket knife). Everybody still carrying one of them? Skip
*Hey David, Maybe not getting that job was a good thing. What happened after that? Did they get treir house built? Were they a pain in some one else's butt? I've turned down work before and been glad i did. You obviously didn't starve to death. Don't You feel that when You submit a bid that YOU interview the other party as to their fitness to have you do their work? Keep at it and remember that anyone who gets every job they bid is screwing up somewhere, least that's my read. Skip
*Yup,Mine's sharp enuf to shave with, and I ALWAYS sharpen my pencils with it. Thought there was no better way.
*I have a crew of them (non-hammerers), Shg.I used to agonize over it, but have learned to live with it. I knew that would happen if I switched to guns. I switched anyways. The old days are gone, and I'd rather be profitable. I din't switch over easy-it's a long story and I'll save it for another time.blue
*Excellent advice Lawrence.I like your approach. I used to have two sets of cards too. One emphasized remodeling, one was for rough frame carpentry only. I now only do the roughs. But my remodeling cards will surface if the bottom drops out of the new home market.blue
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A few years ago, I bid on a house to build. I arraigned a meeting to go
over my bid costs with the clients. The first question the lady asked me
was I competent enough to build their house. It had nothing to do with the
references I gave them; it had all to do with my company name--David Thodal
Carpentry. She wanted to know why I called myself Carpentry and not
construction or builder. I spent about 45minutes addressing my thoughts on
being a carpenter; a person who builds with wood. I talked about craft and
the tradition of carpentry in house building. After her husband showed up
and repeated the same question and a shorter version of my answer, we
managed to discuss my bid for maybe 1/2hour before they left. I did not
get the job (I must of been lucky that day) because they still felt
uncertain of my qualifications because I called myself Carpentry.
I have thought of changing my company name, maybe to Housewrights,
but never to construction. Whereas I may build a house every few years, my
business is diverse, additions and remodels, some exterior trim and siding,
floors, cabinets and alot of interior trim. The common thread through all
this work is wood. I love working with wood and the craft that goes along
with it.
So off on a slight tangent and to the point of my question. One
reads the current trend of building magazines, including FHB, talk to
builders and in Breaktime and the talk is on manufactured wood products,
OSB, BCI, TJI, engineered studs, particle board, MDF trim, color-lok
siding, vinyl siding, the list is endless and growing. Where's the wood?
Can we truthfully consider ourselves carpenters? The trend in building is
towards these products and bigger houses and still trying to keep the cost
competitive. Quality, craftmanship, and a honourable trade seem to bear
the cost. So if we are not carpenters, what are we. Maybe FH should have
a contest for a naming. How about the plasticteers or carpducts?
Walk good and
*We are not Carpenters, we are "masterful creators".
*This fits right in with all the Business discussions that have been posted over the last year or so. David, with all the friendliness at my disposal I really encourage you to read every post currently on this board about business. A good one to start with is: "Ask a Homeowner".Then you will have your answer.
*I have recently purchased a small house built in 1952. It is structurally sound but needs cosmetic updating inside. I need to know if there is a way to tell if the trim has been painted with an oil base or a latex paint. Also can I use oil based enamel over latex. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank-you.