I’m about to start renovating one of the rooms in our house which has asbestos tiles on the floor – actually peel and stick ones, believe it or not. They’ve been tested. I’m fairly confident I could do the job myself safely – that’s not really the issue here – they are popping off the floor by themselves for the most part. The real issue is how to do this legally. Apparently the epa, dot, and everybody else regulates the removal and disposal of this stuff. Tiles are okay for a HO to remove in Mass. but one small slipup and they can slap you with a mammoth fine. Not to mention negotiating the paperwork – getting approval from every agency and finding a landfill that will take it. Sounds like the easiest part is removing the tiles – everything else is a headache.
Alternatively I could spend a $1k to get a little used 10×10 room professionally abated. Kind of out of the budget.
Either way the tiles have to come off – they aren’t in good enough shape to overlay with another floor.
Does anyone have any experience with this – especially in Massachusetts? I’m sure most bathroom and kitchen renovations probably ignore this issue entirely and just toss them in the dumpster, but surely some pros and homeowners do it right. Any advice or alternatives?
Replies
There should be a hazardous materials disposal site somewhere around you. Your fire department or sanitation department might be able to point it to you.
They will be able to guide you along. Here, they wanted the asbestos materials given to them in sealed bags, but after that it was all theirs.
Look into getting an asbestos encapsulant if any of them are broken.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Let's be totally truthful here, asbestos comes from rocks that were in the ground originally before man came along and made tiles out of them. Don't tell anyone cause that's inviting all kinds of red tape and regulation not to mention money(your's not their's). Take the tile up and deliver it to the dump yourself in the back of a pickup. There, it will return to the earth where it originally came from. A 'dust to dust' sort of thing.
son, ain't no dumps here in Eastern Mass anymore - we transfer all of our waste to less fortunate communities.
there are incinerators, though, and that's why asbestos isn't allowed in regular trash.
from the Mass DEP wesbsite - I am not positive this is updated, though, you should call
Where can Asbestos Waste be disposed?
Asbestos waste that is thoroughly wetted, properly packaged and labeled can be disposed of in a Massachusetts landfill that is specifically permitted by the DEP to accept asbestos-containing waste materials (special waste). Contact the closest DEP regional office for information on two very limited exceptions for Vinyl Asbestos Tile (VAT) and asphaltic roofing materials.
Where do I find a disposal facility?
At present, there is only one landfill in Massachusetts that is permitted to accept asbestos wastes. The landfill is the Waste Management landfill in Chicopee. The telephone number for the landfill is: (413) 594-4172, and for Waste Management is: (413) 539-9036. Some out-of-state landfills also accept asbestos. Before taking asbestos to a landfill, contact the facility to determine if, when, and under what conditions the facility will accept asbestos. Licensed asbestos abatement contractors can be hired to remove asbestos and take it to an approved disposal facility. Contact the DOS for a list. Asbestos wastes may not be sent to an incinerator or resource recovery facility.
I spoke to the DEP this morning and they were less than enthusiastic about me doing it. The guy mentioned the fines pretty frequently indicating one crack in a tile could cost $8k in fines. I'm also not keen on having a permanent record at the town and state level of having removed asbestos myself from my house. I'm fairly sure I could do it safely and well - but I'm not sure the next person who buys my house will see it that way.Have you done this before Rick? I'd be interested in any tips on dealing with the red tape.
No experience -
Might be would contacting an asbestos abatement company to see what they would charge just to carry it away - if they would.
I have used an outfit known as "Asbestos Man Removal" (really, that's the name) to remove pipe insulation and they are a good outfit.
Does your town incinerate trash? Is it curb pickup? Mass does not make it easy or cheap to do the responsible thing -
I think its curb pickup to a transfer station. Not sure after that.I've gotten ballpark prices of $1-1.5k to get it abated fully and anywhere from $200 - $700 for just picking up bags. I'll check Asbestos Man. Its good to have a rec - so hard to tell with these guys.I couldn't agree more. Its no wonder there's so much trash getting tossed into the woods, roadside and into rivers. Its so hard to do this correctly and you are discouraged the whole way.thanks.
Edited 9/8/2006 3:41 pm ET by grandizer
The guy you spoke too at the state is a civil service
employee. I am one. Scary threats etc are SOP.
I doubt the one crack etc routine. Nobody can get
a whole floor up without any cracks. Well maybe but
highly unlikely.
Be very careful about exposing yourself to the
ire of the county as well as the worry of
asbestos fibres themselves.
You may find the 1.5k bill a lot better way to
go as it will over and done with.
That said be SURE the guy you get has more
licenses and signoffs than God and BE HOME
when he does so you can at least keep him
honest.
Let us know how it goes.
Im in the same situation!
I can't say I did a TON of research on this, but in our state, it's apparently fine for homeowners to dispose of one bag of asbestos tiles per pickup.
I know that sounds odd, but the actual wording sounded much more official ;o)
Actually, it might have been an issue with the garbage company more than the city.
As for the tiles, that's one of the safer ways to have aspestos. It's in a solid, and even when you crack them, it's not really kicking up any asbestos dust. Keep the space ventilated, and spray it down before taking off and you should be fine.
BUT, of course, DO check with all your local codes/laws.
In my own opinion, this whole this is a pile of B.S. It is a natually occuring material and IF you take some simple precations, it is pretty safe. Just don't sand the stuff and keept any dust wet/damp. Buy a asbestos rated mask for $50
I have just recently torn off approx 35 squares of asbestos roofing tiles from my home in calif. After talking to a company that does the testing and that also does abatement, THEY told me that the material really isn't that hazardous when it is in the state that mine was in(mixed in with a cement) and that is Probably the same as yours(mixed with vinyl/resin/linoleum). He told me how they do it and that they just wear a mask, no suit and that they put plastic up against the house.
They waste management company delivered a regualr 40 yard haul away and all I did was line it with visquine plastic and seal it closed when I was done with duct tape. It went to our regular land fill. there was a "special handling fee" of and additional $200 and the total waste fee including the 1 week bin rental, dump fees and hauling was $400-500. The paper work was all of 5 minutes to fill out. When I asked the waste company about the hazardous material gouing to the regular landfill, he said that asbestos is not the same as chemicals, oil products and really isn't considered "hazardous material"
I didn't argue with him, either.
Just ask what the guide lines are, make sure you follow them and you can prove that you did.
Bottom line, asbestos kills people.
Do you really want the residual fibers in the air in your house, with your family breathing them in, your family being poisoned by saving $1k.
To me, it doesn't matter what the cost, it's worth it. My health, your health, your family's health should matter and should come first.
Without your health, what do you have?
Here, a HO can be fined $10k for not properly abating asbestos. A contractor can be fined $10k for messing with it and not being trained and licensed to do so.
It is a hazard, deal with it accordingly.
http://grungefm.com
Man, those last two posts could not have been more different.
"Bottom line, asbestos kills people."So to trees. And rocks. And airplanes. And...I'm normally completely on the side of asbestos lawsuits, but because of them, the material has been given a reputation much worse than it actually is.The friable fiber stuff that you see in old schools...that's nasty stuff.But asbestos tiles/siding...that's not hazardous unless you dand them to a power and breath it all in.Taking up tiles in a basement isn't going to introduce enough asbestos in the air to be of much concern...especially if you wet it down and ventilate.Also, the damage asbestos does to your lungs is due to prolonged exposure.
And don't forget water, you can die from that stuff too and if you get just a couple of ounces of it in your lungs, nobody ever recovers. A guy was killed just the other day during a college hazing from being forced to drink it. He experienced brain swelling and he croaked right there in the basement.
Darrel and Woodway: Don't make light of people dying.
Ever have a friend/work acquaintence die from asbestosis? You might change your tune.
http://grungefm.com
Edited 9/9/2006 12:24 am ET by RRooster
Edited 9/9/2006 12:26 am ET by RRooster
No one is making light of people dying.Asbestos inhalation is very dangerous when you're exposed to it over any meaningful period of time. People that have had to work in asbesstos related industries have had untold amounts of problems. Asbestos in a friable state is nasty, nasty stuff. That said, you're not gonna die from taking up a floor of asbestos tile. Asbestos in that state is pretty much innocuous. And if done right, really posses no meaningful health (or environmental) risk at all.My point is that there are a multitude of materials that can kill you in the right context. CONTEXT is important, though, and one shouldn't get carried away with fear mongering.
Did you have the adhesive tested also? That is the real problem (in my opinion) regarding asbestos floor tiles. I agree that solid tiles being removed isn't that much of a problem, but walking on them and particularly buffing them (the problem in schools and commercial buildings) is.
In Maryland we had a day to take most hazardous materials to a pickup point where people in moon suits would remove it from your vehicle. Ideally they wanted it in original packaging but I took a bunch of lead paint tailings in a trash bag and no problem.
Sooooo....
Not that I would suggest doing anything illegal of course, but what are the regulations and facilities in your neighboring states?
well you ought to be throughly confused by now.heres my take,before i spend a ton of money getting rid of it,i'd get some cement board,thinset and lots of screws. spread a heavy coat of thinset down put the cement boad down ,put screws every 4" and tile it.next thought, it's not that much tile a 10x10 room,next time i go to the midwest on vacation i'd take them with me.here you could pull up to our landfill,pay 17.00 and dump them. i think they say they want it wrapped in plastic. i'm sure as soon as the bulldozer runs over them the glad bag is still intact.lol larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Is it permissable to just lay down some 1/4 inch or 3/8 luan plywood on top of it and then lay your new flooring?
I think you need to look at the total picture.
First, get an actual price on removal. Then
get to the bottom of what the county will allow.
If the county is going to be a total pain,
just pack it in and hire Mr Asbestos.
If not, then remember that there is a risk and
the real risk is probably greater over time,
that is, if you release a few fibres and you
breathe them in over the next 20 years.
I thought you had said cost was 1500 bucks
which factored out over 20 years isnt a big deal.
My worry would be how good Mr Removal is.
You may be more careful than he if you get
a careless contractor.
Also remember that in New York State the
law was amended last week and removal looks
to be no problem. The hang up is WHERE they
can go and HOW you MOVE THEM. Whether this
is another slippery politician move to
deny what the law says or was a handy
way for the politicos to look like they
said OK when actually they wanted a no,
well that is up for opinions. Carrying
them across state line or carrying them
ANYWHERE in a non-approved manner could
be a major legal problem.
Finally, whether or not asbestos is the
Greatest Risk to Public Health Known to
Man isnt the issue. Legal problems are,
Im afraid.Im really interested in how this works
out and if other homeowners have been
through this please post.
recently did a cvt job in a federal building in NH. old floor was 9 x 9 asbestos tiles installed in the 60s. it was ok to encapsulate them with 1/4 luan and then lay the tile on top of that. i would also check with your local flooring suppliers, i am sure that they have dealt with this situation before
So many to reply to...
I don't want to try taking it over state lines. The dept of transportation has jurisdiction when it hits the road and that's just one more group to piss off.
I considered encapsulating/hiding it under cement board and tiling it (our desired final finish) but I believe the subfloor may need some rework. The underlayment shows some water staining and I'd like to get under it and see what's what first.
And there's no mastic - they are just peel n stick.
i'm still selling the idea of cement board and go on.water staing is not a problem,if you think its rotten take a ice pick to it and see.yea it would be nice if it was stuck well,but it isn't and its a pia to remove. get lots of screws and it won't move.my preference for board is hardibacker,it's a little stiffer than durarock.larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
If the tile is really peel-and-stick stuff, I'm having trouble believing it contains asbestos. Do you know the vintage of the tile? Was it put on top of other stuff, or used to replace older tile?
It may be that you got a bogus report when you had the stuff tested. Certainly not unheard of.
As someone said, generally the real problem is the adhesive.
Some perspective from an environmental engineer:
A material containing more that 1% asbestos is defined as an asbestos containing material (ACM). Peel & stick tiles may indeed contain asbestos. The adhesive on these tiles usually does not. The black asphaltic cut-back mastic used to install non-self stick floor tile often contains asbestos. Floor tiles typically contain between 2 and 10% asbestos. In floor tile, asbestos is bound by the vinyl and is not readily released. (Asbestos will be released if you sand, grind, burn, or break into many pieces).
You will not be fined $thousands$ for cracking a tile. It is impossible to remove floor tile without breaking. That's why we use engineering controls and work practices when removing asbestos. You should be able to safely remove this tile yourself by isolating the room from other areas with plastic sheeting, wetting the tile, and taking it up manually with a scraper. Do not use a shop vac. Wet wipe and mop small debris. A HEPA filtered respirator is recommended.
Here in NY homeowners are exempt from the asbestos regulations, which were revised as of September 5. This exemption for homeowners to do their own work had been in effect for years and was not changed. The homeowner must do the work, if you hire a contractor ( or you contractors are hired) to replace a floor, or install new windows on a transite asbestos-cement sided house, or replace a heating system, or do any renovation/demolition that may disturb ACM, the asbestos materials subject to possible disturbance must be removed by a certified and licensed asbestos abatement contractor. Air monitoring, by an independent firm under contract to the Owner (not working for the abatement contractor) must also be done. You could sub both of these services, but might want to have the homeowner hire both the abatement contractor and the air monitor - liability.
I don't know the Mass. regulations, but imagine a similar exemption exists for homeowners. Check with your local landfill, tell them you have non-friable floor tile. You may even be able to bag it and just put it out to the curb.
I would not recommend that a homeowner remove friable materials, such as boiler and pipe insulation.
Sorry for the length of this post. There's lots more...
Bart