Attic insulation upgrade- other options?
RE:attic insulation upgrade
I enjoyed the recent article in Jan issue, but I have some questions that I need to answer. First, I am looking at upgrading the insulation in the attic in Portland, OR. The house is about 50 years old and has old loose insulation that is insufficient and compressed with time. Further, the vent from the bathroom just blows directly into the attic. Now if I were in a colder climate, I would be concerned about this but checking other homes, it seems to be common practice. Do I need to figure out how to vent this to the outside or can it stay venting into the attic like it has for the past x number of years? Second, what is the best way to improve the insulation without costing a lot. I am thinking that the easiest and acceptable way would be to “scoop up” the insulation from between some of the rafters and deposit it in the neighboring rafters, and then putting down rolled insulation between the new “scooped out rafters” Any advice would be appreciated.
Sid
Replies
Do I need to figure out how to vent this to the outside
Yes.
I am thinking that the easiest and acceptable way would be to "scoop up" the insulation from between some of the rafters and deposit it in the neighboring rafters, and then putting down rolled insulation between the new "scooped out rafters"
Leave what's there alone. Find the penetrations through the ceiling (like the fart fan) and seal them properly with caulk or Great Stuff type canned foam. Then blow cellulose over the existing insulation.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Thanks for your advice. I will do as recommended but could you educate me a little?
Is the reason for venting the bathroom fan, to hold down mold growth? I was confused that so many homes in Portland just vent into the attic. I have also noticed that in Florida, the dryers are also vented into the attic. So I am wondering if where there is normal higher humidity, this becomes a non issue.
After I seal up all the leaks, you are advising to blow in the insulation instead of moving it and putting in the batts. Is this because it will be cheaper? I have installed the rolled insulation over the top of the joists (perpendicular) for a home in NJ and it was simple and inexpensive. However, I have not rented a machine to blow in the insulation so I am kind of clueless about the relative costs.
Thanks for your further advice.
Sid
I would ALWAYS LEAVE OLD insulation. alone ... some older products out there have asbestos mixed in as part of the raw materials.. wear a good respirator and throw away coveralls and bag them before throwing them away...take them off outside the house. homeowners are permitted to do your own asbestos work but you should take the same precautions as the pro's do. If you have venting around the soffits you need an air dam. you can buy them. I bought a lot of metal window screen real cheap and stapled it to provide an air passage and keep the insulation in place. ...the last house my son is fixing up we used rolls off batting and did 2 layers 90 degrees to each other. the price was right. recycled (saved from the dumpster) on a commercial remodeling job I was working on. ..the old house was a lot warmer and the heating bill dropped 1/2.
Is the reason for venting the bathroom fan, to hold down mold growth?
Yes, and rot. The primary reason for venting attic space is to remove moisture. Dumping a bath fan's exhaust into the attic is adding moisture. That moisture will condense on the bottom of the sheathing and can rot it from below.
I have installed the rolled insulation over the top of the joists (perpendicular) for a home in NJ and it was simple and inexpensive.
And also ineffective compared to cellulose. There is no need to remove what's there. It will still work combined with the new cellulose and is not worth the effort, IMHO.
I have not rented a machine to blow in the insulation so I am kind of clueless about the relative costs.
Most home centers will loan you a machine if you buy "X" amount of cells and that "X" amount is likely less than you'll need. As far as operating the machine, there's OFF and there's ON controlled at the nozzle. You'll need someone feeding the hopper with the bales. The learning curve is about 2-3 minutes. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Thanks
You have convinced me that I need to vent the bathroomto the outside instead of into the attic. Obviously, I was hoping that I did not need to do that in a warmer area like Portland, Or but now I will need to figure out the best way to do that. I prefer not to open up a new hole in the roof, so I am inclined to take a long run of about 30 ft to the back outside wall below the roof line. Would you recommend that I install a new unit in the bathroom ceiling with enough power to do this or do I need to put a remote unit in the attic? The owner would prefer it to be as quiet as possible but she is also short on money.Also, can I use the flexible expandable plastic/wire tubing? Any suggestions would be helpful.
ThanksSid
Some food for thought.
Soon to insulate 2700 ft garage to R44. It's my project, so I figured on blowing cellulose myself with the freebie blower from big box... DW feeding hopper and me enduring the attic.
Out of curiosity, I did a cost comparison.
170 bags Cocoon from BB @ approx. $20 per = $3400
Hire it done, make a phone call, write a check....$1487
That's not a typo, I could buy the pleasure of DIY for DW and I for $2k....hmmm, let me think!
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Edited 11/26/2008 10:46 am ET by PeterJ
Thanks for the input. I should have mentioned that the house is quite small, so I will only need to insulate less that 800 sq ft. This could make my assumed savings of DIY even less. I will check on some installers to get a price. Any suggetion on what to look for in a installer?
Sid
Well, in current environment, being in business for a while tells me something. I did let them know I'd be in the attic after them to insure that they got the hard-to-reach areas. I built it for ease, (lights and catwalk), 'cuz I figured on making my life a little better in a not-to-fun job.
You could call a couple of respected buiders in your area and ask who they use.
FWIW, their install time estimated @ 5 hours. I figured it would take DW and I two days.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Just called and got a price: $8.40 for a 12 cu ft bale. That $20/bale sounds hinky.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Oh man, my bad numbers. Thanks for the wake up, cu.
I think I was remembering buying 20 bales and it being around $200....duh.
No wonder it was seeming like an absolute no-brainer to me.
Currently $10.53 from HD. Still a better deal to have it done, but not the runaway I was describing.
You'd think I was trying to sell something, huh?
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Navigation?Ntk=AllProps&N=10000003+90076+527425&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&langId=-1
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
IIRC, when I did my attic (1900 ft sq) about 4-5 years ago, it was about $5/bale. I had two guys helping me (we opened several holes in the roof and sprayed from outside for the most part) and I went and picked up the insulation and the machine about 8AM. I went back about 10AM and picked up more insulation. I returned the machine and picked up lunch for everybody on the way back while they were closing the holes in the roof and we were finished and eating by 12:30.
We added a foot of cells on top of 6" of chopped FG. Cells and extra labor cost me less than $800.
1st thing I noticed when I went inside was that it was much quieter. It hit a hundred that afternoon and it was the 1st time in several days that my A/C had turned off and it was actually cool in the house. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Around here ( southern NH) HD sells a bale for $10.97. But Lowes sells the same one for $10.76, so using the HD price matching plus 10% off, you can get a bale from HD for 90% of $10.76, or $9.68. I plan to put in a catwalk ( OSB on rough cut 1 x 8's) and flag wire runs and light fixtures using flags for the "invisible fence" before erasing the attic landmarks.
I had built a home on the Wash coast and almost every builder runs the bath fan duct up to the attic vent towards the top of the roof and tie it to the vent underneath it. They say it is acceptable with the building dept and is one less penetration in the roof that could leak... They still require the bath duct to be insulated.
Thanks for the insight here but can you help me understand a little better what you mean by where the roof vent is that I could tie into. I am in Florida but will be going to Portland to do this job for my daughter who lives there. The roof is just a simple v shaped roof that runs from front to back and is about 20 ft wide and 40 ft long. I do not remember any vents at either end of the roof.
Sid
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something like this eyebrow vent or other.
http://www.acostamfg.com/product_flashingventsnosing.htm
Can I chime in?
I just did the second half of my upstairs in January.
I have 2x8 floor joists (you may have 2x6). For reasons not important here, I removed all the lath and plaster and insulated all the walls as well as the attic area. I also had vermiculite insulation in there.
The first thing I did was to PUT ON A FACE MASK.
I made sure that every hole every electrician, plumber or my father put into a top plate, ceiling light or plaster pop was sealed with expanding foam. I then opened up bags of R-40 insulation bales and got itchy! If I had wanted to and had the money I would have had all the vermiculite vacuumed out.
Whatever you use, insulation is great but make sure you have a vapour (Canadian)vapor barrier and foam the He*l out of the gaps.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
Aaron
When you say that you put in R-40 bales, do you mean that you put in batts? If so, did you use foil or kraft backed ones?
Thanks
Sid
Actually, I'm a great believer in mineral wool.
In the joist cavities, I added bats of Mineral Wool until I had a count pf R-40. When I had to do the ceilings, that would have a vapour barrier under them, I went with R-40 fiberglass.
I also did R14 in the walls with Mineral wool and foamed in under the window sills, feeds for the electrical service, etc.
Now the caveat: If I had an unlimited budget, I would have had all the old insulation vacuumed out and added blown in or something. But, it was a small area of about 300 sq ft each time, so I did it the cheap way.
Re: venting a bathroom - Always vent to the outside; make the run as short as possible; use solid pipe, well insulated, and run a humidity controlled switch.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
Just say no to venting into the attic. Maybe you don't have a problem ... maybe you don't know that you don't have a problem. Venting into the attic, generally, is just plain dumb. Even in Portland. They don't allow it in Spokane/Seattle.
If you add insulation, that could easily increase your vent problem as you will theoretically lower the attic temp ... maybe to the point of allowing condensation. Vent to the outside w/ a positive connection (don't just lay it in the eave or stick the duct into a roof boot opening.
Don't move insulation that is there ... you say it is compressed ... probably just settled (what is compressing it?). Settled insulation is normal. Add insulation over the top. Don't do work that gives you no return.
What great help -- thanks
You are right about the insulation just settling not being compressed. since the unit I am doing is so small, would it be just as well to get 2 or 4 inch batts and put them above the settled insulation after sealing of course?
Sid
Absolutely.