I’m hoping someone can explain what is going on with the GFCI’s in my house. I’m remodeling the whole thing, so all the wiring and outlets are new, and close to a third of the 15-20 GFCI’s I’ve installed don’t work properly.
These are all new Leviton 20A GFCI’s, mostly bought at the same time in three-packs at HD. As I’ve completed circuits and powered them up, it seemed like one or two bad plugs, so I just replaced them without keeping track of whether the bad ones were out of the same box or from the same trip to the store. Most of the ones that don’t work, didn’t work from the moment they were installed, but one or two others didn’t show a problem until they had 10-15 Amps going through them.
All of the GFCI’s (including the ones that work fine) are home runs to a subpanel. The ones that are bad right away will trip the reset immediately. I know that when you first power up the circuit, the plug is supposed to be in the tripped mode–my problem is when I hit reset the first time, it immediately trips again. Sounds like bad wiring, right? I’ve installed other GFCI’s on the same circuit and had them work properly, and I’ve put regular 20A plugs on the same circuit and tested them with one of the plug-in-testers with the three lights (that checks for open neutrals, etc.).
Everything points to bad plugs, but 6 out 15 plugs, with a few of the bad ones most likely bought on a different trip to the store, just seems too unusual. Can anyone think of anything else that I’m missing?
Again, these are all home runs. All have new 12-2 Romex, and are back-wired (with the screw-down back wires, not the push-in type) exactly as shown in the directions. I have triple-checked them to the directions.
What’s going on?
-Rich
Replies
Rich,
I am NOT in any way an electrician but I had a similar problem. My problem was the wires going to the next plug have to come off the right set of screws. So the power in has to be on the other set of screws. I wasn't paying attention and had several wired backwards and they tripped like you describe. I switched the wires and they worked fine.
An expert can explain why, I hope (other than the directions say so)
Jim
The 3 light tester is very limited. There are many wiring problems that will cause a GFCI to trip that won't show on a 3 light tester.
Try them with only the hot and neutral connected to the LINE terminals and the ground wire. NOTHING TO THE LOAD TERMINALS.
If the GFCI trips then it is bad.
If it does not, but then trips with wires connected to the LOAD terminals then the problem is in the wiring.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Actually, there aren't downstream plugs on most of these. The wires from the panel come into the "Line" terminals, as in the instructions.So maybe these are all just bad plugs, but the total number of bad plugs I have made me wonder if I'm missing something and have wired something dangerously.-Rich
there was a discussion a few weeks back about junk Chinese First Clear Flour GFIs with fake UL stickers on them.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=99638.1I'm not saying yours are part of that. but counterfeit stuff is becoming more and more prevalent.about the only way to avoid it is to buy material from an authorized distributor.
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
.HAHAHAH I just looked at my post....what the heck is First Clear Flour
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my copy and paste went awry..
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
Rich,
I am just curious .... for the money you spent on all the individual gfci outlets, would it not have been much easier to just put a gfi breaker in the box and use standard outlets ?
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
These are all individual circuits, which would each need their own breaker. The breakers are $30-$40, the outlets are $12-$15. When there are going to be multiple plugs on a circuit that I want GFCI protection for, I put the GFCI first, wired in series, and the rest of the plugs are "downstream" of the GFCI, wired in parallel (pigtails).-Rich
if you look at the side of the gfi , there will be printed line and load. the power coming in is the line side, and the power going out is the load. if hooked up backwards not only will it not work correctly , you will have no gfi protection.
I have read all of the posts so far. Have formulated the following theory / procedure.
I have used the same Leviton GFCIs with no problems and since most of your installations are "end of run" installations this eliminates many variables.
I believe you understand the difference between line and load and are connecting them properly as per the directions.
Bill Hartmann proposed a reasonable test procedure for the units in his post.
With this failure rate, I would have a tendency to set up a test bench with a temporary cable out of the subpanel and test the GFCIs before installing them in a wall box. Test bench = one location, comfortable working height rather than 6 locations in different rooms on your knees. Assuming the GFCI "passes" at the test bench, install at a wall box. This would at least save wear and tear on the wall box wiring. If a GFCI "passes" at your test bench and fails at the wall box, it points to the wiring of that wall box.
Although the GFCIs were purchased on different trips to the store, they probably came from the same case / lot number / production run. A component may have been defective in this run.
" 6 out of 15 defective".....bought as 3 packs.....6 = 2 three packs ....My devious mind conjures up the possibility of someone before you purchasing a large quantity of these then carefully repacking and returning the defective units. Said person may well have told the return cashier that the units were defective, but they got restocked anyway.
I once bought 6 cases of Halo, airtight, IC can lights from a big box (36 cans). These were sealed cases. One can light was shipped without the heat reflector plate in it, never got installed at the factory. I returned the can and explained the situation - I told the cashier that the unit was defective and should not be resold - I worried when that can went into their electrical return cart with no tag or anything.
I got a replacement can off the shelf, took it back to the return area and showed the return clerk the part which was missing and explained it's function -- she fished the can out of the return cart and slapped a "defective / missing parts / do not restock" tag on it. I felt better then.
Good luck!
Jim
I'm sure you probably know this, but a regular plug in tester will trip a GFCI. They make special testers for testing GFCI's but electrical inspectors don't use them to test a GFCI, they press the test button. Also, out of curiosity, for what reason are you wiring 15 GFCI circuits. Are you sure that some of your circuits can't be doubled up. As you can plainly see Receptacle type GFCI's aren't very reliable and foul prematurely for a number of reasons. GFCI breakers are far superior.
I didn't know that the test lights will trip the GFCI's. I actually hadn't used it on many GFCI's (just regular circuits) because the GFCI has its own little test light.As to all of the GFCI circuits, I know it sounds high. I have four exterior plugs that are on different circuits--could've put them on 1 circuit, but the way they are spread out, it would've wasted a lot of wire. If I'd known the GFCI's were going to be such a pain I might have considered it.Also I WAY overwired the kitchen. For the three years that I've been building this house my wife and I have lived in a house where the entire kitchen is on one 15A circuit. If you forget and try to make some toast while the coffee brews, you are suddenly in the dark. You can't use any two appliances in the kitchen at the same time. We like to cook, so we made sure this would never happen in the new kitchen. Microwave and toaster oven have their own circuits, two more circuits for the counter-top outlets, and then one each for dishwasher and disposal (3/4 HP). Add two bathrooms and you see how I got to 15 pretty quick.Thanks to everyone for the help sorting this out. I've been pretty comfortable with my wiring skills up until now, but don't really know how the GFCI's work, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't screwing something up.-Rich
It was not clear to me if you have replaced any of the tripped outlets.
Have you? Did they still trip? or do you have so many bad ones right out of the gate you are looking for causes before you start replacing?Would an overdriven staple cause a GFCI to Trip?Just a thought.TFB (Bill)
When I wired my shop last year I put in seven circuits, six of the GFI's where purchased bulk from HD and one of them was bad. It will trip when tested but does not like to reset. It worked fine when going through a check by the electrician but of course it failed when the inspector was there. The inspector said about one in ten is bad out of the box.
About 1 in 10 was what I experienced when re-doing the house. Between the basement, baths, kitchen there are about 12 and I had a bad one in the kitchen that worked initially, but failed after I tested it twice. Replaced it and the new one worked, did the bench test with the bad one to verify it was bad.
Edited 1/19/2008 11:27 am ET by bp21901
I can think of one location that I replaced a bad one, and the new plug worked fine. What was weird was the one place where the circuit initially seemed fine (green light came on, ran some small loads off the plug) but tripped later when I connected the stove (15A due to elec convection element, shouldn't be a problem on a 20A circuit). I know a GFCI isn't required for the stove, but it seemed like a good idea in case there was a spill from the stove-top.-Rich
Thanks. I like the bench set-up idea. I think I'll do that to get this sorted out.-Rich