Been asked to work up a price on building a 24×24 “barn” with optional 12′ shed along the back.
The couple got plans for the structure from an architect in NY, and it calls for post-frame construction, about 18 6×6’s, 1.5 stories, 10/12 pitch roof with a dormer on the front, metal roof, etc.
The plans call for 2×6’s every 2′ horizontally along the posts, 2×10 girders for supporting the 2×8 joists for the loft. I felt like the local slab guys and others would bitch about ‘we ain’t never done it that way before.’ Well, not only that but the lumberyard dude is worried it is underframed. But, hell this is South Georgia and the plans come from NY, so I can’t imagine that anything that would pass their stricter codes wouldn’t fly here.
The homeowner figures it would save material costs to frame it like the plans have it. I don’t – in fact I figured materials both ways for a smaller, simpler garage, and they came out within about $100.
Anyone have any experience with this type framing, and is it cheaper, faster, better or worse for barns?
MikeVB
Replies
From your description , it sounds like the 2x10 are spaning 24 feet. Of course that will not work. If you need to cut the span down to 12 feet then it will have to be a much larger beam. Have you considered wood I-beams Or trusses?
James Hart
Yeah, I've thought about all those options. The plans call for posts every 12' so the 2x10 spans are not a huge concern.
The really big concern I have is that I told the homeowners NO WAY could they expect the structure to be plumb and square by the time we reached the top of that many tall posts that were made out of wet PT southern pine, and that it would be hell framing and putting the roof on it. But, if they want that way I'd do it that way.
They're mainly concerned that it look like an old barn from the outside. So, I think 2x6 stud walls are the way to go.
Did I mention they only want to spend 15K on the project - slab, wired, framed and finished on outside (no interior wall covering) with a tin roof?
An old contractor friend of mine and my electrician don't think that's possible.
I'm afraid with the current plans that it would be unlikely.
MikeVB
I don't thing I could do it for that money around here in Southern Maryland
They're mainly concerned that it look like an old barn from the outside.
If that's their main concern, then what they really need is a pipe frame skeleton, with wood framing infill. That's going to be the really cost effective answer (in also solves some of your plumb/square/true problems).
They probably won't "go" for bar joists for the roof, so you'd either need clips for girts or for rafters-either way works.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Well, the pipe frame skeleton is a new one on me, but I assume it'd be akin to a big giant version of scaffolding.
I appreciate the help and suggestions.
But, I've decided to tell them that if I were chosen to build the structure, I will frame it with conventional studwalls and a few more specs for such and such a price.
Now, another question. The "barn" - in name only, no critters - plans call for 1.5 stories in that there is a 9' ceiling and then an attic/loft/2nd floor (whatever) with rafters (16" oc) leaving from 2 ft knee walls along the eave sides (i.e., front and back) on a 10/12 pitch and just a 2x4 collar tie on every other rafter.
If I use platform framing can I safely build 2' knee walls on the second floor and not worry that the roof will exert too much outward force on them with only collar ties at 8 ft up? Because this is an open structure with only gable-end rake walls and no interior walls to help tie things together it just seems like a NO-NO to me.
I've thought about balloon framing it, but I figured no way in hell that would fly any more with inspectors.
Edited 11/11/2004 4:12 pm ET by MikeVB
the pipe frame skeleton is a new one on me
It's a regional thing, I guess. "Real" hay barns around here are usually welded up from pipe section. About half use metal siding on furring channel. Here, in the damp river valley, it's good to have a rot-resistant structure--or one a working rancher/farmer doesn't have to think about as much.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
How about making roof bents with the wall built in ? That will use the floor joist as collar ties so t o speak .
Don, I think I know what you mean, but just in case my semantics are off, please elaborate.
Thanks.
MikeVB
I was hopeing that you would not ask . You are more than likely right .
The wall would be built into the truss sort of a leg that would be fastened to the floor joist. Most bents are made to reach from the foundation to the peak in one peice.
Thatbudget sure raised my eyebrow a notch or two. matter of fact, it's still stuck up there. I'm not sure I could buy the materilas for that price, let alone pour a slab and build it!
The 2x10 should not be spanning more than 38" IMO to carry the loft floor load.
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Hi Mike,
I build pole barns out in Colorado. Current project is a 36' x 60' with 10' sidewalls, and a 12 x 20 workshop off the side with a layon. Trussed roof at a 6/12 with a 12' cantilever off one side at 3 for horse pen shelter. Four of us set the posts in one day, framed walls in one day, set trusses in one day, then spent another day cleaning up misc. Teco clips, bolts, etc.. We also decked the roof on this one.
The material package alone was about 40,000, the barn total was about 120,000 with electrical, a water line, stalls, doors, and a bunch of dirt work. This is a pretty nice barn, has a bay window in the tack room.
They frame very fast, staying square is fairly easy because you can move the tops of those posts around up in the air to square it up. Then bolt your header on. Sounds like your stick framing the roof though. Usually the trusses are about 7' apart and sit right on the posts. Purlins on top of those for steel. The addition of the loft will add time for sure.
One hint about the steel, measure your girts and purlins, then drill the whole stack at once for screw locations, then your screw lines will be perfect, and they are easier to start as well.
A big cost saving for post frame around here is the ability to delete footings and stemwalls below frost line.
Hope this helps.
Cole
Cole Dean
Dean Contracting
Crooked 6X6s are a pain to work with.
I'd suggest laminated posts. There are suppliers who make and sell laminated posts. Or you can make your own with 2X6s.
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. [George Bernard Shaw]
I have built many barns. On 16in sonotubes. Generally these go $2 per sqft rough cut hemlock without a concrete floor. I attached a photo.
Thats a very nice barn bhackford!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Thanks. I am building another one of these as soon as the permit is issued. It is going to be 44x50. The cost materials only is going to be $8K with dark blue vinyl siding??? and Anderson's. These are easy, fast and cheap.
Some more photos. If you are interested.
Nice job. Where are you located?
Is the horizontal joint in the siding above the garage doors flashed?
There is no flashing. The top siding overhangs the bottom siding.
nice barn.
$2 per sf for what ? the framing materials ?
the structure in your photo appears to be 24x24 or 576 sf. are you doubling that sf for a second floor ?
carpenter in transition
The framing material is rough cut hemlock. It goes 0.40 a bdft. The building is assembled with "50"nails and the lumber is wet. This building is 24'x30'. The rafters are 24" OC and the posts are 6x6x10'. First floor 10' ceiling and the second floor peaks out at 11'. This building sits on 12 16' sono tubes with no rebar and 2500 psi concrete. This building only takes 4 yds.
Edited 11/12/2004 9:13 pm ET by BHACKFORD
Edited 11/12/2004 9:14 pm ET by BHACKFORD
Where are you located? I just revisited the thread where you posted pictures of your hemlock barn.
I'd like to do something similar in southwestern PA.
In NYS.
Could you make a trip to the Pittsburgh area?
Here is the Pacific NW, what you describe is standard "pole barn" framing: 6x6 PT posts on 12' centers, with 2"x6" horizontal girts every 2' to support the metal siding.
"Pole barn trusses" are usually used, which can eliminate interior posts for buildings wider than 12'. Two trusses every 12' (one on each side of the posts). We don't have much snow load here, so 12' long 2x6 purlins running between the trusses suffice for roof framing.
Posts are sunk 4' in the ground to give lateral stability to the walls.
The posts often twist or bend and need to be "persuaded" back in position, or things need to be shimmed a bit. But hey, this is a barn, right? The animals don't care how it looks.
This does not meet residential code, but is OK here for agricultural buildings.
For a real barn with a dirt floor, this is usually the cheapest method, as no foundation or slab work is needed (other than backfilling the holes for the posts with concrete, although some use crushed rock). If this is a "barn" in name only, and won't really be used for animal or hay storage, and you're going to put in a slab anyway, 'might as well pour a stemwall at the same time and use stud wall construction.
There's another way to build a gambrel roof. Done this several times. Frame walls conventionally , 2x4 or 2x6 studs. Make trusses, very simple design uses a king post and 2x4 rafters, the ceiling joists are usually 2x8's,some times 2x6's if the loft is not used for anything but light storage.The formula for your particular size barn is as following. Span 24'-0" 1/6th of span is the height to the first rafter, also the distance from wall to point where the rafter meets the upper rafter. This is 4'-0" in from wall and 4'-0" up. 1/3rd of span is 8'-0" this the height to the peak of truss.Lay out on floor for easy way to get angles. King post is a 8'-0" 2x4 that goes between top rafters and down to ceiling joists.Rafters and king posts are connected with 3/4" plywood gussets, glued and nailed both sides.2x4's from rafter joint at 4'0" height are connected at 90 degrees to the lower rafter with plywood gussets.Knee wall can be substituted for the latter.The eaves if wanted, are added after the trusses are up,2x6's bolted on.
I have made these trusses on 6 saw horses, connected by screwing first truss to them, then building and removing one at a time. First truss is set up as a nailing jig. You will need an architect or engineer to approve these drawings. One time I had to set up one truss, add 500 lbs of dead weight to center with a dryline pulled across the joist span. I was allowed some deflection, do not recall how much. Inspector checked the deflection, none at all. This is for light duty barn, not haylofts or something similar.
mike