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Remodeling old 5X7 bathroom in Calif. bungalow. Want to pull out one 2X4 wall currently used for closet in next bedroom (no plumbing in it). It has 2 top plates, one bottom one and runs perpendicular to 24″ on center ceiling joists. Same as a wall about 2ft. from it (currently housing the closet door in the bedroom). How to tell if the one I want to remove is bearing? What if it is? My thinking: the one about 2 ft. away, which I’ll leave standing, is enough. OK to pull out the wall. Your thoughts, please? Thanks!
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Welllllll-I would take the local building inspector out to lunch and pick his brain for starters. But if that wouldn't work, Get an engineer on to the site and let him or her work their magic. If that wouldn't work, check the size of the ceiling joist and the span it would have when you pull the wall out. The size will give you a clue to the allowable span given the load imposed on it. Another way, but not always the best or surest way, is to locate the interior wall the other end of the ceiling joist rests on. But the first two suggestions are the safest for your situation.
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You say ceiling joists - does that mean there is attic space above? If so can you view the ceiling joists from the attic. If not, what is above? Obviously, if the ceiling joists are spliced on top of the wall you want to get rid of…
Other than that, are there adjacent joists that have the same span (minus the unwanted wall) that are not supported by the unwanted wall. What are the ceiling joist sizes - 2x?, and length (clear span) = ? What is the ceiling covering - plaster - drywall - etc? What is the overall width of the building?
A simple diagram might help. If you are a Windows 9x user, you can use "Paint" under the "Accessories" program group and make it an "Enclosure" to your reply.
More info please.
*Thanks Joseph and Matt-I lose my appetite for lunch just looking at the inspector on this one. So...There's attic above, and from above, I see "true" redwood 2x4's or perhaps 2x6's (I forget-lots of rag wool insulation)on 24" centers. Drywall ceiling. The undesirable wall is perpendicular to the joists and about center of the joists' roughly 16 to 18ft. span (no splices). The nearest interior wall to mmine is 2 ft. away. Overall bldg. width is 35'by 40'. What does it really MEAN ANYWAY, to say a wall's load bearing? OK. it supports weight-I see that for ext. walls.But can YOU GUYS TELL if an interior wall's "bearing" just by looking at it, say, with the client watching you every second???
*...Karen.. yes you can tell just by looking , especially with an open attic, that , and you do a simple diagram as discussed above, then you go to a span table, and check the span of what that type of construction SHOULD carry...i.e. 2x6 @ 14"OC entered the table for 18' span, using data for redwood species....just my guess that this is not going to meet current code for that span...the risk is that the addtional load you are thinking of imposing by pulling the wall may cause the ceiling to deflect...or ..it may not..you can reinforce the ceiling joists in the attic to make up for the support you are thinking of removing..
*Karen,Can we assume that the bath remodel goal is to take the closet space to enlarge the bath?If the ceiling joists are perpendicular to the wall you want to remove and the closet is adjacent to the bath then the joists are also perpendicular to the opposite wall of the bath and at most the span would increase from seven feet to approximately nine when you remove the wall, or if the closet is on the other wall of the bath then the span increase is less, from five feet to approximately seven. If the joists are 2x6 or greater you should not experience a problem. If they are 2x4, or you are still not comfortable with the span for any reason, then above the wall to be removed (in the attic) you could place a strongback perpendicular to the joists and steel strap it to each joist.Of course, the picture in my head could be different from the actual so in that case just disregard or repost some accurate dimensions including intersecting walls other than those already mentioned.Comments? Ralph
*Yeah, Ralph's got the right idea. If you think you might be creating the "overspan" Mike describes, just go up there and lay a 4 x 8 across the top of the ceiling joists directly over the wall to be removed, get positive bearing on the two end walls perpendicular to the wall you are removing and use framing brackets made for that to tie the new header to the old joists. Piece of cake.As for the term "bearing wall" you got it right - and wall that supports weight other than it's own. Some carry more than others. In the case of a trussed roof, or a wall paralell to the ceiling joists, interior walls are usually not "load bearing". You just have to take a look and see what any given wall is supporting, above or below the ceiling line.
*What about looking b UNDERthe wall? Assuming that you're on a basement or crawlspace, see if there's anythingb under the wall you want to remove. If there isn't, it almost certainly isn't load bearing. If there is a beam or wall directly under it, then it probably is a bearing wall. Also - bearing walls tend to be in, or close to the center of the house. That also might give you a clue. Bearing walls also tend to run most (or all) of the length of the house.
*This may sound rude, not meant to be, but...Save enough money and wait till you can afford a qualified contractor. Listen to the questions you are asking, and think...If you overheard the contractor of choice state them , would you hire them? Chances are not, so don't hire yourself. Too many variables here, and I'll bet you will be costing yourself money in the long run. The extra time will help you establish exactly what you feel comfortable in handeling yourself, and what you'll hire someone to do. Have it organized, possibly demo/clean up yourself, have the framing done by a pro, possible pro plumbing/electrical roughs, and do the finish work yourself. The idea is to end up with a budget and finished job you'll be proud of! Meet with a pro first, discuss the plans and schedualing, and start tearing away. I know when customers want to save a few bucks, and do some of the grunt/cleanup work w/o me, I'm happy! Find an all around contractor that can help in future projects that you can do the same method on! Happy hunting...Jeff
*So Karen, did ya think you would get this kinda responce? Jeff may have hit the nail on the head. Find a licensed contractor and pick his brain. Ask about them being a "construction consultant" for a modest fee. You get the experience of doing the work yourself plus you get the advantage of a learned expert watching over your shoulder. Good luck and have fun.
*A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single footstep. Karen took the first step. Maybe it will lead to contractor, maybe it will lead to a career in construction, maybe it will simply lead to talk over coffee. Who's to say?
*I didn't want to say go see a contractor because I'm sure I've been on more than one "free estimate" where the home owner just wanted questions like this one answered. I don't want some other poor contractor driving around, giving up his weekend to do charity work.Karen, If you do decide to pick someone's brain, hire it please.
*Karen, I have to agree with Jeff. It won't cost you anything to have a pro look at your project. What you want to do sounds very simple and probably is. It should not cost a great deal of money to have the wall removed if it is on-bearing. If you feel this is a project you wish to do on your own more info is needed to help determine the function of the wall. Draw a sketch which shows size and species of floor and ceiling joists, spacing, any posting from ridge to wall, location of any beams or support for floor joists near to or under the wall to be removed, accurate spans for all. Additionally any plans for future use should be considered. e. oversize tub/ whirlpool, flooring etc. Hope this helps.
*Ryan, BIG pat on the back for your honesty. If you can find your way up here I've got a whole summer's worth of house to renovate. Long as you can stand the mosquitos.
*I second the motion..knowledge has a price!Jeff
*The official definition here in the Los Angeles building code is that a wall is bearing if it supports 100 pounds or more per running foot, or if it's a masonry wall, if it supports any masonry at all above it.That legal definition isn't a terribly practical one. There's no way to measure the weight on the top plate of a wall. So, you have to look at what it's supporting. If the ends of joists rest on the top of a wall, it's usually bearing, but not always. I have an example in my own house where the joist tails are on top of a little 2x3 non-bearing wall that separates two closets. It's the other walls of those closets, 5 feet apart, which are bearing. They're the sides of the stairwell downstairs. In older buildings, 2x3's instead of 2x4's were allowed for non-bearing walls, but not any more. So there's another clue: if it's 2x3's you can usually demo it, unless some bootleg remodeling has transferred some load to it.In your case, this is the attic that's on top of your unwanted wall, so you'll also have to look around and see if any of the roof framing is supported by it. If not, then your only issue is the resulting joist span. From the sound of those 16 - 18 foot joists, you can probably find examples elsewhere in the building of the longest span using the same size joists. If the new span you create is no greater than that, it should be just as OK as the rest of the house. If it is greater, then you have to consult the span tables, and decide if you really want to work close to the limit, or play it safer than code requires. If it comes to that, pay a professional for advice.-- J.S.
*Karen, to determine if a wall is load bearing use this technique. Tear the wall out, and feel if something lands on your head. If the ceiling and roof lands on your head, it probably is a load bearing wall.Seriously, it sounds like you are contemplating the removal of a bearing (ceiling joist) wall. You mentioned that there is a small closet wall about two foot away. One or both of these may be the actual bearing wall. It will depend on the foundation, or the beam location. Generally speaking, it is unwise to transfer the ceiling load to floor joist.That said, I think it would probably be safe if I understand the situation correctly.I would recommend paying for a pro to come and give you advice (I'll do it for 50$ and airfare, hotels, meals etc.) , if you cannot figure it out. You local building dept might be able to ascertain the location of all bearing walls if they keep a copy of your original building plans on file.good luckblue
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Remodeling old 5X7 bathroom in Calif. bungalow. Want to pull out one 2X4 wall currently used for closet in next bedroom (no plumbing in it). It has 2 top plates, one bottom one and runs perpendicular to 24" on center ceiling joists. Same as a wall about 2ft. from it (currently housing the closet door in the bedroom). How to tell if the one I want to remove is bearing? What if it is? My thinking: the one about 2 ft. away, which I'll leave standing, is enough. OK to pull out the wall. Your thoughts, please? Thanks!