Good day, all. I’m not sure I’ve ever posted before, but I need some help/opinions on this.
I am a DIYer, more from necessity than desire, although I am also a craftsman and take pleasure in a job well done and the compliments I receive.As a hobby I’ve gotten into planted aquaria and presently have a 55 gallon tank that keeps me busy when I’m not surfing the ‘net or tinkering in my shop. Now I find myself wanting to “upgrade” that tank to a 125 gallon. The specs from the manufacturer’s site lists the size of that (the footprint) as 18×72″ and a weight of 1400 pounds filled! And I’m assuming that’s just water, not including the weight of the cabinet, substrate, rocks, equipment, etc. In addition I was thinking about doing a sump for this tank which would be an additional large weight depending on the size of the sump. So it’s very possible the entire set-up could weigh as much as a ton.Unfortunately, the space I wish to place this monster (where the 55 is now) is parallel to the floor joists although it is against an outside wall. The only thing I can think to do is to go under there and put blocking in on 12″ centers, attach a 2×6 to the underside of the 2nd joist from the wall (like half an I-beam) and then put probably four floor jacks under supporting that (crawlspace.)Does this sound adequate?
Replies
You are definately heading in the right direction. Make sure you have good support (concrete) under those floor jacks! Hopefully this post will keep the thread alive for the real pro's to weigh in :-)
Concrete? Oh, geez, I hope not! I've only got about 2' of headroom under there. I had planned to put the jacks on solid blocks pulled under there and leveled the best I can.
"You probably won't want to hear this, but you should get a structural engineer to help you plan and design an adequate support structure.""It's a job you only want to do once - and you want it done right 'cause the risk of doing it wrong is pretty scarey. Imagine 100+ gallons of water all over the floor in your home."Cindy,That is what Dave said to you and your response was this, "You're right of course, however that is not an option at this time."Dave is 100% right. What options do you actually think that you have? Your suggestions aren’t options either!This is not something you just ask and then dismiss the obvious answers. This is a major structural job that you’re doing and it needs to be looked at by an Architect or Engineer.You want to put something on top of joist that weighs almost 2000lbs. It NEEDS to be supported by something other then DIRT underneath.Is this a case where you only want to here what you want to here or will you take the advice of a professional?What makes you think that you’re qualified to sit a little girder on top of block that is leveled off on top of DIRT?What will hold those blocks up when the weight above pushes the joists and the blocks down?Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you’re doing something that is not normal and although your doing the right thing by asking questions, you should listen to the answers and get Professional help.
If this was a new addition or new home all this would be designed to hold 2000lbs either by big beams, steel or a mid-span girder with concrete piers and columns. The same thing applies now with existing, it has to be designed to handle what you want, and not what you think you want to do.I wouldn't even know the answer to this and I've been framing for over 20 years. I would ask an Architect for advice.Why is getting this looked at not an option?Joe Carola
Edited 9/23/2006 11:21 am ET by Framer
Greetings - you've posted 4 times previously.
I have no answer to your question, but this will bump it up to the top so someone who knows will see it.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
18" x 72" footprint...but what is the footprint of the cabinet.
What size of floor joists do you have??
How long do they span??
How far from the wall is the first joist??
What is the floor on top of the joists??
I'm guessing that the people that know enough to answer your question will need at least some of that info to do so.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Ah, let me see if I can answer these questions this morning. The cabinet (not built yet) will have an identical footprint, a continuous support around the perimeter (i.e. not on legs.)I believe the floor joists are 2x8s, with a span of 20'or thereabouts (ranch style house built ca. 1955.) I haven't measured, but I believe that first joist is probably the standard 16" from the wall and band joist. The floor is 1x6 SYP T&G subfloor (installed diagonally)with 3/4" oak strip on top of that. All of the framing is SYP. 50 year old SYP. You should try driving a nail in some of this stuff! It's worse than seasoned oak!Without digging in that particular spot, it's hard to tell what the soil structure would be there. I do know that you hit chert deposits in some places (we're next a creek) but also clay (we're next a creek :-).) One is good for weight-bearing, one is bad. It'll be hit or miss for that.This'll be a freshwater tank, so slightly less in weight, but it's nice to know that 1400# apparently factors in equipment, etc. Although I doubt at that point a hundred pounds or two is going to make a whole lot of difference.Wait a minute, I need to edit this. I'm working on memory here (not a good idea at the best of times) as it's been a while since I've been under there. Those are NOT 20' long 2x8's, there's a beam going down the center which splits the span, so call it 10' span. I think I need to get under there with a notebook and take notes (and even pix would be favorite.)
Edited 9/23/2006 8:22 am ET by CindyTR
I would also mount a sheet of 3/4 ply directly on top the floor and under the tank to help spread the weight over the joists more evenly. That along with your other ideas will hold just about whatever you put into that tank.
"the size of that (the footprint) as 18x72" and a weight of 1400 pounds filled!"
Fresh water is about 8.35 lbs/gallon, so 125 gallons would be about 1050 lbs, give or take a couple, and salt water would be a little more. Usually, there is an airspace of a couple of inches at the top, so you could subtract a few gallons. A glass tank would be about 200 lbs, a plexiglas tank would be quite a bit less.
125 gallons of water checks in at 1000 lbs. ( 125 x 8 lbs/gallon ), so there is already an allowance of 400 lbs for cabinet etc.
18"x72" footprint = 9 square feet = proposed aquarium will load the floor to 155.5 lbs / sq. ft. By our building code a residential floor is only rated at 40 lbs / sq ft as a minimum; methinks some serious reinforcing is needed.
RichBeckman in post 79063.5 has the list right for info needed - also what is the floor in the crawlspace? dirt? 2" mud bed? What area of the country - how deep is your frost line / minimum footing depth? I would definitely consider moving any additional sump to the crawlspace if possible.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"Sump" in this case refers to an additional aquarium, or container that is usually housed under the "show" aquarium and which serves the purpose of increasing the total water volume (more water = a more stable environment) and as a place to put filter media and other bits of equipment that support the tank (heaters, CO2 reactors, PH probes, etc.)For a 125 gallon tank I would probably be using a 30-55 gallon sump.To all intents and purposes we don't have a frost line here in central Alabama. We very, very, rarely have more than 24 hours of below freezing temps. A "cold" day in the winter is one where it doesn't get above 50*. I do believe it stayed below freezing for 4 or 5 days back in the blizzard of '93, but that was somewhat atypical.
Cindy -
You probably won't want to hear this, but you should get a structural engineer to help you plan and design an adequate support structure.
It's a job you only want to do once - and you want it done right 'cause the risk of doing it wrong is pretty scarey. Imagine 100+ gallons of water all over the floor in your home.
You're right of course, however that is not an option at this time.
Cindy,
This is easily DIY-able if you're willing to take a month.
Framing; 2x8 blocks across three joist bays under the ends and across the middle of the tank. If you can't find 2x8s the exact size of the existing, rip x10s down. Use upside down hangers and a liberal bead of Gorilla Glue on the top and side edges of the blocks. Sand to fresh wood the sides of the joists where the blocks go.
Add continuous 2x4 flanges under the blocks, then under the joists. Use 3 1/2" deckscrews 6" OC, alternating sides, and Gorilla Glue. Get the outer ends of the flanges as close to the mud sill as you can without extraordinary efforts.
Under the two second bay end flanges, set a bag of cement in a hole dug into dirt, not gravel or sand, about 1" deeper than the bags. About every 1-2", poke a nail hole in the sides of the bag, cover the bag and the hole with plastic. place a 2x6x12" PT block on the bag, the jacks in place on the block.
Run a permenant string line 1" under the second joist, record the exact distance. =- 1/64".
Put a little (1/8" rise in joist) pressure on the jack, then tap the block down into the dry cement. Repeat till the cement is very firm under the block.
Back fill loose soil to the tops of the cement bags. Water the soil till you have standing water. Spread the plastic and seal the edges to the ground with dirt.
Check the 1/8" lift of the joist. Even pressure on both jacks. Repeat daily for one week. Wait three more weeks before filling tank. Recheck the joist lift until it stops settling, then set it for zero lift. Recheck annually at least twice.
After two years, remove tank, park cement truck on floor to pour new central grand fireplace footing. Replace tank. (|:>)
The posters suggesting that you get an engineer are, of course, correct.On the other hand, it has often been pointed out here at Breaktime that the few hundred dollars spent on an engineer are saved by not doing the inevitable overkill that is often done to "make sure" when the engineer isn't called.In this case, you can probably do the overkill for less than the engineer would cost.SamT seems to have a pretty good handle on it.
Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
seems like you are getting all of the structural advice that you need. Our company just finished putting in a 200 gallon saltwater tank that I built into a the kitchen/living room area. This is btw in a million dollar house. The whole time they were doing this I kept telling everyone I could that they need a laundry type pan under the tank and equipment. Needless to say no one listened to me. One of the owners Buddy's came to install the pumps and such and did not get a good connection on the fill hose. He turned on the water and said" it will take a day or two to fill" (3/16 hose.) the next day the daughter said " mom why is watter dripping from the ceiling in the basement? I had to grin for a second. The dumb carpenter was right and the college educated "higher ups were wrong"