Replies

1. 
   Mongo | Jun 29, 2002 01:06am | #1

   smiley,

   It's tough to tell you a "reasonable rate" because there are several variables that enter the bidding equation.

   How complicated is the trim? Is it a single run of simple crown, or a more difficult 4 or 5-piece built-up crown?

   Where are you located? The wage scale is somewhat different in Connecticut vs Kentucky.

   How fast can you work?

   You need to take a look at the condos and check into the complexity of the job. Around here (CT) trim is usually bid on a length and cut basis. So many feet of trim at so many cents a foot, as well as so many cuts (copes and miters) at so many cents per cut.

   If you think you can run simple crown in a simple 16' square room, and hang that room in one hour, a typical bid may be 25 cents per foot of trim, and one dollar per cut.

   The 16' square room has 64 feet of crown, if you charge 25 cents a foot, there's $16. Add $1 per cut (actually $1 per corner) and there's another $4. If you trim that room in one hour, you just made $20 an hour.

   That may be a good wage, or a bad wage for you...again, it depends where you live.

   Bidding by the foot compensates you for the scale of the job, adding in a charge per cut helps factor in the difficulty of the job and should help balance out your bid.

   Sorry I can't give you $pecifics, but hopefully the theory behind the bid may help you out.

   Good luck!

1. 
   Snort | Jun 29, 2002 03:30am | #2

   Smiley, I bid trim for a living and I don't think anybody here can give you your prices, just clues on how to figgur 'em. You've got to know how long it takes you to do the required tasks and how much moola you need to get paid during that time. If you don't know, don't get too freaked, just bid high...you may not get the job, but you won't be working for someone else for less than the job is worth, either...they'll be other jobs...point is, don't sell yourself short, it won't make you happy...and, isnt that really the point?

2. 
   villagehandyman | Jun 29, 2002 05:04am | #3

   try materials times three for a basic job add some if there are more than six cuts per room get feel for what you customer wants if they are looking for primo craftmanship and or if there is an interior decorator involved then cost is no object I once installed some beautiful carved cherry wood wainscot chair rail in one dinning room approx 80 ft I cleared a thousand in one day the trim was perfect and my customers were very happy  dont for get not everyone can do a good job on moulding even if they have good saw and nailguns it takes a talent not all carpenters have

3. 
   smiiley | Jun 29, 2002 05:52am | #4

   Thanks for the replies, guys. you all raise good points. i was looking for ballpark figures, and you gave me something to go with, Mongo. sure appreciate the tips. it is single build crown mold which won't be too hard (as crown mold goes). also includes base mold, door trim, window stools, etc. but i'll probably go with your per foot/ per cut suggestion.

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Jun 29, 2002 06:42am | #5

   Smiley ya got some real good advice here. I just repeat something that I posted

   here on BreakTime a few years ago in answer to a a question on bidding trim

   by the square foot. In fact I've heard the question so many times and used the

   same reply now three times on this site, three times on the old Remodeling Online

   site and just the day before yesterday over on the JLC site too. Still holds

   true I think( hope).

   There is no such thing as " average square footage price" to do

   trimwork. There are only naive ones. We specialize in finish work and I can't

   ever imagine estimating, or bidding a project based on the square footage

   of the house. There is really no correlation between the two. First of all

   most trim work (although not all) is based on linear footage (i.e. baseboard

   crown etc.) or by the piece, assembly, or unit (such as doors).

   If a general contractor has asked you to give him a Square Foot price to

   finish a house for him he might be looking to see just how much you know about

   just what it is you are doing. If he can get you to give him a SF price then

   he can take advantage of it.

   Think about this too an 8000 square foot house with 20 rooms costs a lot

   less to trim than an 8000 square foot house with 35 rooms. The ratio of linear

   footage (trim) and doors (units) to square footage is a lot higher in the

   second example than the first.

   My suggestion would for you would be to;

   Generate a reasonably accurate take off for you project. In other words

   measure and count stuff

   Go out an purchase the Craftman Books - 2001 National Renovation &

   Insurance Repair Estimator and use the Man-Hour labor estimates in there

   as they apply for the kinds of work you'll be performing times your Hourly

   Rate. (I recommend the NR&IRE book as opposed to some of the other ones

   out there for finish work in that that book has the widest range of finish

   items that I have seen.)

   3. I say use the Man-Hour calculations rather than the labor costs that

   they have computed out because your Hourly Rate is unique and I think most

   every ones Hourly Rate is. They may average around a certain number in a

   certain range for a certain kind of work but we all have different schedules

   of overhead calculations and there are regional differences too." ----

   I also added to my post aon the JLC site the other day---

   Sorry but that’s the way it really is. If you're interested sometime

   in the next few weeks I'll be finishing up work on a database estimating program

   written in Filemaker Pro. Since the emphasis of my business is on finish work

   and unique one of a kind projects it might fit for what you are trying to

   do. If you'd like to try it out we'll be looking for some beta testers and

   I’d be glad to work with you on it in return for some feedback on the

   software. Let me know.

   The man-hour figures in the database are based on our own empirical data and

   may not be 100% accurate for you but at least it will be a starting place. Like

   Mongo asked " How fast can you work?" we may be faster or slower than

   you but at least the numbers will be close to being in the right neighborhood.

   Also thinking tonight to expand on #1 up there regarding your takeoff is to

   also takeoff (quantify and list) conditions. For instance if it's an old home

   remodel takeoff (quantify and list) how many time you openings which have walls

   out plumb. How many time does the floor dip requiring you to scribe the base.

   Are the 250 lb doors you are installing going to be in or near their locations

   or do you have to move them in from a trailer 100 yards across a muddy back

   yard and then up three flights of stairs? Lot of stuff to consider but if you

   make it in trim and architectural wood work it can be a goldmine.

   You also might want to check out Jim

   Tolpins Finish Carpenter's Manual. One of the real good things about the

   book is at the end of each chapter he gives some of his own man-hour figures

   for the task he has just described and there a good foundation to start from

   in building your own. Also check out the new edition of Gary

   Katz's Finish Carpentry: Efficient Techniques for Custom Interiors, No man-hour

   figures in it but it's full of great technique ideas. I going to set up both

   those books as training manuals for new hires.

   Good luck. I'd be glad to review your takeoff, numbers, and bid with you if

   you like if that helps you out too.

   "Do not go where the path may lead, go

   instead where there is no path and

   leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

1. 
   fdampier | Jun 29, 2002 07:15am | #6

   Bid High and bid often...

    the theory is that you won't get all of the jobs but the jobs you get will be profitable for you.

          Bidding is a process that requires frequent checking to see how you are pricing yourself.  If it's a closed bid, ask if you can see all of the bids once they are open.   In the future use those numbers

1. 
   27sean | Jun 29, 2002 07:31am | #7

   "Bidding is a process that requires frequent checking to see how you are pricing yourself. If it's a closed bid, ask if you can see all of the bids once they are open. In the future use those numbers"

   Don't just use other peoples numbers, what if those people are loosing money and will be out of business next month?

   Figure out how much material and labor, add in your overhead and your profit and then that is your price. Continually improve your process and systems to become more efficient, reducing your labor and overhead so that you can do the job for less but make the same profit.

   This ties into the thread in the business forum "Who will build the future?"

   How can you attempt to run a profitable business if you don't even know how much it costs you to provide the product that you are selling.

1. 
   Handydan | Jun 29, 2002 11:54am | #8

   I have not done enough trim to give even bad advice on bidding it, but I can tell you that bidding to high is not as bad as to low.  Mongo's advice about length and cuts sounded simple and sound to me.  Just remember that if you get the job, do it well, and feel guilty, you could give them a rebate and have a contact for much further work.  Just tell them the job went so well that they can share in the benefits of a well run job.  If you don't get the job, all you lost was the time it took to bid it. Just my thoughts.

   Dan