I need a 3hp+ fixed base router. No finesse work. It’ll never see any other bit other than a 1/2″ single flute flush trimmer for hogging 1/2″ plywood out of window/door RO’s and up gable ends. Simply looking for a no frills beast that won’t mind getting swung around by the cord, occasionally dropped, and generally overworked/overloaded.
Other than that… I don’t expect much out of it. 😉
Burned up a 2 1/4″ HP Bosch enough times that my repair guy gives me sh1t everytime I bring it back to him. And my (back-up when the Bosch is down) Milwaukee 1 3/4″ Body Grip caught on fire this week. No kidding.
So I’m looking at either a 3 1/4″ HP Porter Cable…. the venerable 15amp Speedmatic. Or for a few dollars less…. the Milwaukee 3 1/2 horse fixed base.
An alternate choice is the new “Incredible Hulk in a motorcycle accident” looking Hitachi plunge…. but it doesn’t really look like it’s up to the challenge. Some of the money spent would be on plunge mechanics which I really don’t need so that one is pretty much out of the running unless somebody has a ‘money shot’ over it and convinces me.
So whaddya say fellas? Which one is up to the challenge? I’m thinking I should probably spend the few dollars extra and get the Speedmatic and be done with it.
Replies
I think you should get the Speedomatic too. It's still the work horse of the big router world. I do have the older pre-designer Hitachi for plunging and it runs great and was inexpensive (cheap).
Know a foreman over at a countertop factory and all they use is the big PC with FT bits. Some plunge and others fixed base. Got carts full of'em.
what are "ft" bits?
Probably "Flush Trim" bits.Brian, Here's another vote for the big PC Speedmatic. The dang thing weighs as much as a worm drive saw, but you are using it for framing, so fair is fair.
Sorry. Flush trim bit. Tend to write like I talk...
Good deal on the Freud presently -
http://www.ptreeusa.com/edirect_101207.htm
We use the PC 7518 for sheathing. It's heavy but has plenty of power and is an industrial grade tool. When you retire from framing and become a furnituremaker you'll be able to put it into a router table.
LOL... is there much of a market for an armoire made out of SPF with 'distressing' via waffle head marks?
Yeah... I think you all convinced me of what I was already pretty sure of. Spend the money on the Speedmatic and be done with it. That's what I'll do.View Image
No question....PC.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
PC... done.
I was just looking at them over at CPO Porter Cable.
$297 for the 5 spd recon. 7518
$329 for the single speed new. 7519
[email protected]
Good lookin' out Eric, thanks. Good to "see" you too. View Image
Looks like someone else found you a better deal.
You can tell who's puttin' the hammer down..............[email protected]
Just ordered that $199 reconditioned Speedmatic off Amazon before someone else gobbled it up.View Image
Porter Cable hands down, though I'd look on e-bay and craigslist and see if I could find a slightly used one if I were going to beat the hell out of it.
Interesting your little Milwaukee caught on fire, I'd have paid a bit to see it.
I have the same little body grip, wouldn't use it for what you plan on, but it's one of my favorite routers, I love that body grip... I still like my PC 690's, now there is a no frills solid machine
Another vote for the 7518 ........... didn't like the handles on the big Milwaukee. Fwiw, Timberline Tools has a recon 7518 for $199.99 +10.00 shipping.
We all know that all tool companies have good ones and lemons but........... I have 4 Porter Cable routers including the big one and they are all bulletproof. My big one usually lives in a table and the guys will use it before going to the 3 hp shaper cw power feed. Mostly custom sash work and moulding.
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 10/20/2007 11:31 pm by Novy
I have 3 PC690s and the 5-speed Speedmatic. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 690 for your application. You could certainly swing it by its cord. I dropped one of mine on a concrete floor and cracked the base though. You can get a 690 fixed-base for about $100. Brushes are easy to change too.
The Speedmatic is a complete beast. It is *the* standard for production router table use. With a higher-power router like the Speedmatic, it's a little more prone to get away from you in handheld operation. It's so heavy that if you're holding it up all day long day after day you'll have pipes like Arnold before long... :)
A contributing factor to your burning up your Bosch might be running a dull bit. You might consider getting a small diamond hone so you can touch up your bit. Lee Valley sells them:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33007&cat=1,43072
690's don't last long at all for my intended application. Been there and done that. I've still got one but only use that for trim or milling railing stock out of soft woods like cedar. And dull bits are just part of the game when using routers for framing.
Don't get me wrong.... a 690 is a great little tool. But it just isn't the right tool for this job. View Image
RO's and up gable ends
Don't the cutters get dulled when they hit the inevitable gusset plate that is slightly overhanging the top chord?
Which cuts faster, a 3hp router or a power saw? I've never routed a window and I doubt that I ever will but I know a lot of guys in here do that too. Do you use the router on all openings, whether lying flat or standing up?
I used to route stairs in my earlier years and set up a 1.5 hp PC router but the bits dulled quickly (they were carbide) and I never really enjoyed it much. I really did love it when I burned all my templates LOL. I hated storing the things.
I'd vote for PC but I've never used any other so my opinion lacks depth.. I still do have four PC routers in four different sizes. They're somehwere in the US right now...but I really don't know where for sure.
fka (formerly known as) blue
Blue, I haven't set a truss in over two years and hope I never have to set another! That's just me though.... I'm just used to stick framing and really enjoy it to be honest.
Anyway, which is faster? Well, if you factor in snapping lines around the window ROs before using a circ saw then the router is much faster. But strictly "inches of cut per second"... a circular saw is faster hands down.
We try to cut all of them out while the walls are on the deck. Inevitably, a few can't be done though with corner tie-ins or whatever. Those, more often then not, end up getting cut from the inside with a sawzall.
Using a router on a wall that's up and in place is messy. You get too much #### down the back of your shirt to justify it in most cases. :) But I'll put up with the pain on something like a garage door opening or gable because it often makes the trim go up easier when you've got crisp lines to work to.
Really though.... I love how neat and clean it makes the framing look. Yeah, I know... you probably don't think that's much of a reason. But I've got the same rules as any other framer thats actually making a living...... it's gotta be fast or it ain't gonna work. At the end of the day... it's probably a wash with using a circ saw, but it just looks a little slicker IMO.
I still do have four PC routers in four different sizes. They're somehwere in the US right now
Am I reading that wrong, or are you indeed outside of the US yourself right now? Whatchoodoin? And what happened to your screen name?View Image
I read that whole thread waiting for someone to compare using a skill saw with one of those big routers. Thanks...I needed that.
I have to admit that I've never even seen one of those big routers being used.
I'm all for precision framing but I'm also a minimalist about tools. K.I.S.S.
Coming from the time before carbide tipped saw blades were introduced, I'm still impressed with how much work they can do with ease. So all I need is a pencil, a chaulk box and my skill saw.
Just thought I'd toss in that comment on behalf of the "old timers". Considering that my next home will very likely be built with ICFs, I may have already cut out my last window opening anyway.
You mentioned single flute router bits. Is that the type you use?
I use a double flute 3/8" bit and it goes alot faster for me. I have it mounted to a junk 1-3/4 HP router that has refused to die. With that bit I never saw a need for a bigger router.
You are looking for a 3 HP router so I am sure a single flute doesn't slow down at all.
Matt
My experience has been that a double-flute gives a smoother cut... but slower. The single flute seems faster to me... but with a rougher cut. Kinda like tooth count on a blade. Then again, I could be dead wrong, but that's been my experience anyway.View Image
I can get double flutes off the shelf here any yard I go to, thats why I use them. I tried a single, but my puny router couldn't hardly spin it.
So the combination of having to order them and needing a mule of a router turned me into a double flute user.
I wasn't sure if you had tried them, that why I mentioned it. Good luck with your new router.
Matt
Stilletto
I've found 1/2" double fluted flush trim Amana bits on E-bay, 5 for $25 or $30, new!
I've seen them several times and bought a few groups of them.
Worth a looksee
Doug
Doug, those long stab-thru plungers in single flute are what the framers use for cutting out window openings in sheathing.
Long, like over 4-1/2" in overall length. Cutter length about two inches. Like this.
View Image
Is this what you saw at as little as $5 each, when bought in bulk?
Gene
No the ones that I bought are not a plunge type.
Flush Trim Router Bits-2 Flute & Extra Long 2 Flute
View Image
http://www.toolstoday.com/pc-5047-416-flush-trim-router-bits-2-flute-extra-long-2-flute.aspx
Approx 4" long.
When I did a few habitat houses we would use this type of bit, drill a hole and insert bit and do the deed. we were not exactly shooting for speed!
I see where that bit that you showed would be more benifical to a framer. Cuts out one step.
But yea, I was getting packs of 5 new bits for $25 to $30. I think I bought two lots of them.
Doug
Brian,A single flute bit is stronger than the same size bit in 2-flute. Single flute has only one gullet, so the opposite side can be solid metal, allowing high lateral forces to be safely withstood.Your sawblade analogy is spot on. The tool with fewer teeth/larger gullets will take fewer, bigger chips at the same feed rate, making for a cooler cut overall, which helps tool life. Many roughing operations in woodworking factories use single flute bits for these reasons. Also, they are cheaper!Bill
On old timber framer that Ive had the pleasure to work with swears by the old industrial Bosch's and Dewalts, so if you can find one of those somewhere ( nice for backup or second router)......
Now what is old Im not really sure ( '70s or 80s ??). He said something about the windings being better in them or something. Said they would burn through the heavy duty makita's and hitachi's.
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
LOL, I think I'm still in the US but sometimes I wonder. I'm in Austin and they certainly do things differently than in MI!
Thanks for the response about the router work on sheathing. You basically saved me about $400 dollars because if it is faster with a high powered router, I certainly would embrace the idea. I wouldn't consider it for the aesthetic reasons simply because I view the edges of a rough opening as just that....a rough opening. Furthermore, I know that every rough opening is going to get wrapped in some form of clothing before I leave the jobsite.
I understand the pride that accompanies your desire to deliver a clean frame because I've been accused of being "too picky" at many times in my career. I'm big on getting a good clean look at certain critical areas of a rough frame, but that just doesn't extend to the edges of plywood on a rough opening. That's a personal choice and I'll not fault you for that. It's just part of who you are.
I think I should also mention that I've rarely snapped lines on any rough frame sheathing opening, so the time differential between the various methods of cutting the plywood would be significantly greater in our standard methods vs yours. I learned my methods on Celotex sheathing and we were taught to set the blade full depth and use the sides of the trimmers as the guide. It works the same as a flush router bit, once you learn the speed and feel of what you are doing. Anone caught pulling out their chalklines to cut out a rough opening would be dressed down immediately and if they couldn't get the hang of doing it with a saw, they were let go.
Of course that created a different problem in those days because all of our saws were steel blades....no carbide. The slightest protrusion of a nail head would nip the tips off one side of the blade. That would cost the framer a sixpack of brew LOL!
fka (formerly known as) blue
Oh yeah, one last thing. You might be proud to know that I've become a shingling underlayment proponent. I've learned what vertical rain means here in Austin. We've never had a rain like that back in MI. I had to do a small shingle repain on a steep (just barely walkable) roof and the only thing wrong was a small gap in the felt!
I'm not considering putting something a bit better than felt, but not quite Ice and Water shield under everything we do her in Austin.
By the way, I can't remember if we've had some battles about felt, and if we haven't just ignore this post. If we have, then let me say "you are right, I am wrong".
With that, please carry on with the router talk...fka (formerly known as) blue
Oops, I forgot to answer the last questions.
I kinda outlined my return to the forum and updated some things about me in my return thread called Chief Talk. I don't mind repeating briefly.
I got real busy deciding to vacate MI when the school deal financing fell apart due to the worsening economic conditions there. When I finally arrived in Austin, I spent some time figuring out what I was going to do in this market and after resetting up a business here, decided that I could afford a little time each day on BT. I rationalized this decision by telling myself that I learn a lot here (I really do) and would need a lot of questions answered because I'm now going to working in a new region with new building criteria and methods.
Currently we are focuing our efforts on "flipping" in the upscale markets of the Austin downtown neighborhoods. We intend to create value by chopping off the roofs of small house and increasing their size by 1000 to 1500 sf. Additionally, we are taking on some subcontract and general contract business to keep the boys busy in between flips. That puts me squarely in the field as a remodeler, something that I'm not really experienced at but I'm willing to learn and do it, especially if I don't have to deal with homeowners' whims.
When I decided to return to BT, I just decided that I'd use my full name for several simple reasons. First, I've lost a lot of my paranoia that I had in the early years of my internet participation. I've decided that the use of internet forums isn't really much different than having a conversation in a real life cafe. Second, I intend to do some threads on our upcoming work that may very well double as marketing tools. Third, and possibly most important....I cannot remember how to properly type in my old name. I remember the password but I cannot remember the nuances involved in how I used to log on. I'm not that computer savvy and when I got a bit frustrated searching through my computer trying to remember where I put the username and password, the other reasons kicked into my head and I just decided to start a new life with my real name.
I will be eliminating the tagline soon because most of the old friends in here have already caught on to who I am and the newbies don't really care.
It's good to have time to be back, but I'm starting to get very conscience about how much time I spend here. I'm starting to chart it and I may very well start limiting it and disappear again if I can't keep it under control. fka (formerly known as) blue
I like using the Freud, which is by far the cheapest of the class. TWO of them will run you less than $250. Compare the lifetime of two with one of anything else.
View Image
Throw away the baseplate, and replace it with a clear acrylic square baseplate, about 18x18 x 3/8 thick. Ours has drive handles mounted on the base, for extra stability when moving it around.
Here is a source for cut-to-specs baseplate blanks. http://www.jmkdisplays.com/sheet.html
Edited 10/21/2007 12:04 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 10/21/2007 12:20 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Good point Gene... I'll take it under consideration. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with the PC though.View Image
So that big honkin' PC Speedmatic showed up a couple weeks ago. We've really given it a work out lately. Last week I spend three days straight with it hogging through 3/4 plywood making up curved rafter parts for a bell shaped dormer and barrel vault ceiling joists for a portico. Ate it all up and wanted more. What a fantastic tool.
yep, just becareful with that big spinning.
I imagine you're working pretty close to waist height...
Sure hate to give the boys a hair cut or worse.... ;)
Word.View Image
How many passes per side are you needing? What's the bit set up? What's the stock? Is it wet or dry stock? Any pics? FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Jim,
The rafters and curved CJ's we made were all made out of 3/4" ACX ply and laminated up. Two plys for the CJ's and three plys for the bell dormer rafters. I cut one ply at a time with the router with just a single pass and the router handled it without a problem. I used the same 1/2" shank single flute bit flush trimmer bit that I normally use for cutting out RO's. It was really fast and really clean.
We finished that house yesterday (Friday) but I've got to go back there sometime this weekend to fuel up the forklift.... I'll grab some pictures while I'm there.View Image
The nice thing about that PC is its got enough oomph to power your truck if ya get engine trouble
just make sure your cord is long enough <G>
Heck, you've probably got a generator. Keep that in the back of the truck, and all you need is a short cord LOL
I don't think you can go wrong with a PC or Bosch.
"I don't think you can go wrong with a PC or Bosch."I must have gotten a lemon when I bought the Bosch 3hp for my router table all those years ago, the thing gave me nothing but headaches. It finally started to smoke and instead of trying to fix it once again, it was garbage day and the truck was right on time. I've had good & bad experiences with Bosch tools. I know some people swear by them. I have 2 PC 690's now and went out and bought a Craftsman professional model 31/2 hp soft start for the table because Sears Hardware is about 2 miles from my house and I needed the damned thing yesterday. As I recall , it wasn't that cheap. Yeah....guess what?... That thing has gone through about 5 miles of various hardwoods, MDF etc and laughs at me when I tell it I'm going to run it into the ground.The one PC I use on a regular basis is about 15 years old. PC really is at the top of the game when it comes to routers.
Aside from the big PC speedmatic, the other option folks go with for the router table is the Milwaukee 3625 (?) - it is usually considered to be a better choice for the router table than the PC - and usually you can find it for close to $250 or even closer to $220 or so on a crazy deal from Amazon or HD tools.The Milwaukee has thru the base height adjust also.For a value deal, everyone is clearing out the big Frued routers for $125 right now, if money's tight, those will cut wood about the same, without perhaps some of the finishing touches of a PC or Mil.JT
I realize it's too late, but for others looking for heavy duty routers, if you want one beast to dominate them all: Fein.The timberframe shop is up to about 6 of them, they cost a lot, but are the quietest, smoothest routers I have ever used. They absolutely get HAMMERED on doing way more than they should and never have any problems.
JT
the other option folks go with for the router table is the Milwaukee 3625
I have the PC 7518 or 19, cant remember which, that I mainly use on my router table. Its getting a few miles on it and I was thinking of replacing it with the Milwaukee that you mentioned. My reason for chosing this router over the PC is the "through the base adjustment"
I read some reviews over at knots and some other woodworking sites and I saw several common complaints about it. Vibration - apparently there is a problem with a small amount of runout on the bits.
I dont know how much of this is valid but its worth looking into.
Doug
Hummm? I have never had any problems with Bosch. I have both PC and Bosch. I do prefer my PC laminate trimmer router. Bosch laminate splicer works better than the PC one.
This one is supposed to be the latest and greatest over at finewoodworking. It's especially good for under a table. Here's a link. http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2383
Edited 11/16/2007 11:42 pm ET by popawheelie