Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 08, 2000 07:43am | #15

   *
   As a contractor and after having one of those days, i come home to read the BITTER BATTLE post for the first time. There is always two sides of a story.

   But my problem is with people with the highest standards, and the lowest bid.

   I do not do crap work we have one standard for residental work, and it is pretty high. Not perfect, but what most would consider FINE HOMEBUILDING.

   The reason so many builders are doing crappy work is because that is what the public at large demands. They dont care if the studs are straight, and the windows are back primed cause it has a pretty tub, with a big faucet. They want more and more icing, and just dont care about the cake.

   I get so angry like today when i meet with a client for the 4th time having given them more information and knowlege about building thing the right way, to lose the bid to someone that i know will not meet anyones standards in the areas that counts, but pretty it up and walk away with everyone happy(for now).

   I love what i do, and i know how good it feels to work with good clients that appreciate your quality, but I am so tired of being made to feel like a criminal when my bids come in high.

   When will people educate themselves about housing half as much as they do before buying a CAR????

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 07, 2000 07:16am | #1

   *David,Sure hope the frustration's dying down for you by now..........In my business I've noticed 2 things over the past years.1) It's true - people talk up quality and then most make their decision based on these three things: price, price, and price.2) You can only bid the job. If you bid the competition, you'll sink for sure.Hope you're doing OK.

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 07, 2000 07:22am | #2

   *Your last line made me laugh! As I was reading your post, I was thinking of a conservation I just had with my sister-in-law about cars. I used to sell them, and for alot of reasons I quit. Customers not listening was one of them! Friends and family then and now ask my opinion on the cars they are considering, then buy some bullshit line that the saleman throws out and they buy the pretty red one. I got tired of fighting it when selling cars, and it's a little easier to deal with now that I'm selling myself and my own product. If they want crap, they deserve crap! Used to drive me nuts.......but they said they'd sell it for under invoice.....yeah, all businesses try to sell shit for less than they paid! What the hell are these people thinking? They offered to pay off my trade......I only said we could roll the balance over to the new loan......yeah lady, they like you sooo much they are willing to pay off a 5K debt to make a 2K profit! What math are you using??? Most people just hear what they want to hear. No use damning the dumb! They'll learn sooner or later and blame someone else! ......there's a guy here saying on TV that he'll "rassel an aligator" if ya beat his deal. Now you know he won't. And I know he won't. So ,to me, he's lying to you before you even get to his sales floor....and people still go! The general public are idiots....thank God we're so smart! Jeff

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 07, 2000 07:46am | #3

   *LOL! I liked -your- last line! We bought a van last summer and I was terribly disappointed. The dealership responded to a bid request I submitted online, gave me the price I was looking for without "going to the manager," then knocked off $200 for an "Internet sale." They also talked me out of an extra package or two I asked about. This was a build-to-order van, so it wasn't just something they were trying to get rid of. It was odd being treated like a human being -- where were you for every other dealership experience I've had or heard about? What were you selling? What (pretty red) car should we buy next time?Consumers can be pretty foolish and deserve to lose for it, but I don't think the jerk who profits off of them deserves the profit! The big lie we're raised on is that meritocracy works a lot better than it does.

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 07, 2000 06:01pm | #4

   *Yes, buying a vehicle is a real pain: our local IBM Club has made arrangements with several local dealers to sell "fixed price vehicles". What this really means is "fixed profit", you go in, show your id (in my case, a retiree badge) and speak to the contact, usually not a regular salesman, and they price the car based on their invoice cost + a fair profit. Most of the time it's pretty close to what you can negotiate in the show-room, but it only takes a few minutes. IMHO, that's the only way to buy a vehicle.

2. 
   Guest_ | Sep 07, 2000 07:35pm | #5

   *When they base the price on their invoice price are they taking out the volume discount the dealers get back at the end of the year from the mfr designed to inflate the "invoice" price? Maybe it's better but I'm sure there's an angle the dealer has figure out. Did you get the undercoating?

3. 
   Guest_ | Sep 07, 2000 07:57pm | #6

   *1) The dealer has to make a profit, just like a tradesman or contractor does, if some of that profit comes from discounts, then it applies to all cars. This boils down to a so-what ? The price always seems fair and very competitive. Several credit unions run the same system and everyone seems to like it.2) The dealer's angle is that they make a fast sale through their fleet guy, don't pay a big sales commission to one of their lot lizards, and get a fair price, all for a small expenditure of time and effort.3) Actually, the last vehicle I bought was a Suburban and the dealer told me that undercoating for it was a waste of money.

4. 
   Guest_ | Sep 07, 2000 11:27pm | #7

   *Yep, "undercoating" is one of the standard jokes. Someone else at the dealership, the finance person, -did- try to sell me a trivial option at the last minute -- keyless entry -- and I just said no. The price also wasn't jacked up from "base price" by unfairly-priced options that they know you'll want, like air conditioning. I was surprised. Templeton Dodge in Vienna, VA.

5. 
   nigel_martin | Sep 08, 2000 12:51am | #8

   *as I see it: Look at the job, work out a price, Tell customer the price, If they put me in a bidding war then walk away!ie. Someone asked me "why my price was twice another guys?" I told him "I start the job and I finish the job with quality." I also showed him other jobs I had done in the area. I got the job and all the other projects as they came along on this house.

6. 
   Guest_ | Sep 08, 2000 02:59am | #9

   *I am one of the fools that gets things undercoated, or actually rustproofed.Bought 2 used cars in a row that were 10+ years old without a lick of rust on them - both had ziebart. So when I bought the ram in '96 I took it to ziebart.Our current '92 explorer didn't have ziebart and it is starting to have rusty corners missing all over the place. Of course, it could just be due to being a ford.-Rob

7. 
   Guest_ | Sep 08, 2000 03:08am | #10

   *Being a Ford is probaly part of the reason, but down here in South Texas we know rust when we see it - the snow birds are back!I bought a Saturn about 3 years ago. Vety nice car, once you accept that it's small. The buying experience was unlike any other.I bought an Explorer from a dealer in Boerne Tx and it was a nightmare. They changed the typed, agreed-upon price with a pencil on the sales order form and tried to cover it as a mis-undestanding.

8. 
   Guest_ | Sep 08, 2000 04:33am | #11

   *Rust proofing a used car is a crap shoot.Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. On a new car it usually voids the paint warrenty. When I sold cars in '94/'95 GM actually had a small disclaimer against rust proofing in the back of the brochures.Undercoating is a whole nuther mess.Done right, as in at the factory, it'll protect the underbody for years. Done wrong, as in quick and sloopy, it'll eat right thru the clearcoat. Then ya rust away. To me, never worth the risk as an add on. Now, the extended warrenty presented in finance CAN be discounted....and if discounted to a reasonable price is usually a good deal. Jeff

9. 
   Guest_ | Sep 08, 2000 04:48am | #12

   *Hi people,One of my trite sayings and rules of thumb: The American public has a hard time grasping the concept that you get what you pay for.I turned in bids for 3 little TIs this week and was almost twice as expensive as my competitor. I was very comfortable about how i arrived at my numbers. There were no specs so i developed a page of specs for each bid. The competition had three or four sentence specifications for each job. Some of what they managed to specify in a sentence or two was obviously unworkable, unethical, violated code, etc. No i didn't get those jobs. Feel sorry for the tenants because they will get screwed.joe d

10. 
    Guest_ | Sep 08, 2000 04:57am | #13

    *I don't know what the price of keyless entry was on your van, but it is a great option to have. Sometimes it is bundled with other options that you don't want. Sometimes it is bundled with anti-theft features that get you a discount on auto insurance. And, adding all the great features will add thousands to the price....Frank

11. 
    Guest_ | Sep 08, 2000 06:58am | #14

    *When I was shopping for my mini-van, I thought I had found what I wanted at a dealer I could put up with. Then I asked about the wheels. The van I wanted had $80 optional wheels which I thought were ugly. I asked if the wheels could be swapped with the standard wheels from another van. Sure I was told. That will cost you $20.00 for the labor to make the switch! I made it clear that I wasn't expecting to have the price dropped $80, and they said they understood that, but it would still cost $20 to make the switch.I left. Bought the van elsewhere.Rich Beckman

12. 
    Guest_ | Sep 08, 2000 07:43am | #16

    *Like $280! For $400 the other car got an aftermarket keyless entry, an alarm, ignition kill, -and- remote ignition (like, you can start it from 400 feet away -- I know because I started it once looking down from the 39th floor of our Chicago high-rise -- mostly a toy, but dad liked it).