Hey- I’m brand new to the forum. I’ve worked in the home building business for many years, but that was also many years ago, and although I don’t have the experience to go build someone else a new home, that wont stop me from tackling my own new home here in Maine starting this spring. I plan to do everything I possibly can myself with a lot of help and advice from my friends and also, hopefully, with help and advice from people like you that are more experienced than me in this forum.
One more tidbit of background, I’m rock poor (that’s one small step above dirt poor) and I want to own my house quickly (5-10 years), so I’m building as affordably as I can, but I dont want to do “cheap”. We also have our first baby due the day we start building… good timing, do they make baby dustmasks?… So anyway, we’re building a 24’x32′ cape with a 4′ kneewall and a shed dormer on the west wall, and my first crazy idea is this… I want to do a board and batten exterior with no sheathing behind it with the thought that later, when I can afford to, I’ll tear off the battons and cedar shingle the house. Here are my questions:
Is this feasible? Can you Typar or tar paper over your framing and board and batton right to it? Some suggest tar paper would be better than Typar, any thoughts?
I have a good source for white cedar and am thinking about using it untreated on all the trim and siding thinking that will be a very low maintenence exterior (especially if I never get around to the cedar shingles… could happen). My other option is pine boarding boards that I would soak in a borate salt solution to inhibit rot and then seal with Cabot’s bleaching oil so the whole house would turn a nice silver gray (once again, long before I get to shingling it probably), although this would probably cost as much in time and materials as all white cedar.
I appreciate any and all advice anyone is willing to give me. Thanks-
Replies
One method I've seen several of around here is to do a "simulated" board and batten. Sheath the house in a good quality rough-sawn exterior ply (fir or cedar come to mind). The plywood is your "boards". Now apply whatever batten width and spacing you want. If you fasten the battens with ring shanks, it's not even a critical issue that you land them over the wall framing. You could do 12" or 16" spacing. Given that your sheathing is also your exterior finish, you're going to want to pay good attention to keeping a waterproof finish on the surface.
I've thought about t1-11 but disregarded because of the horizontal joints (some walls will be over 20' high). Thanks for the input.
you have to get racking resistance built into your corners...
and you have to have some way of installing your windows.. most of the good energy conserving , clad ones ( low maintenane ) come with nailing fins...
think about using a cedar faced exterior (rough sawn ) plywood so you can get the future shingle base... the immediate racking resistance, the cedar to weather .. and then just rip cedar strips for your battens..
install your windows on top of the siding /sheathing and flash and trim with 5/4 for future reveal..
pay attention to flashing details.. both for current ( say 10 years.... temporary always gets put off ) and for future.. spend your budget on windowsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
For racking resistance, I could run diagonal bracing recessed into the wall framing, couldn't I? One or two on each wall and then board and batton over it?
If I was to use 5/4 trim over vinal clad windows with their flange attached to my plywood or board finish siding, how would I flash the top of the trim? Would I try to get flashing behind the plywood (or boards) and over the top of the trim?
Thanks for your input.
If you go with 4x8 ply instead of real "boards", your shear problem is resolved.
If you have 20'+ walls, you might find that the uninterrupted vertical look is a bit too much anyway. We did a B&B that had a horizontal 1x6 around the bottom, and another one (1x4) up high breaking up the vertical height. We ripped the top edge of the horizontals for drainage, and mitered the bottom ends of the battens to land on them tightly. Get your battens ahead and let them dry so the end joints don't open up so much. If you check around, you can probably get your rough-sawn ply in 10' or 12' lengths too.
I agree w/BEMW about the rough-sawn ply as the base (also called ruff-tex or T-111), usually 5/8" thick. This ply is a stand-alone siding (as long as the joints fall on stud centers and z-metal flashings are used at horizontal joints) and is pretty inexpensive. Housewraps or tarpaper can be used directly over studs. Around here we have pretty much regressed to using 15# felt in lieu of housewraps due to concerns about moisture becoming trapped behind the wraps. Good luck with your baby and your house!
You say you've regressed to using 15# felt in lieu of housewraps due to concerns about moisture becoming trapped behind the wraps. Aren't housewraps breathable? Is your point that the tar paper stops the moisture that will eventually get behind board and batton from going any further? What about moisture in the house trying to get out through tar paper. Is that a concern or even possible? Thanks for your input.
I have seen this done even in Alaska where I spent 33 years. 40# felt (tar paper) was used over stud walls. Tyvek wasn't available then, but anything to stop moisture moving out thru siding. Don't forget to backprime your boards with something. Should you ever want to paint the siding.
I'm unclear on the function of Typar or tar paper. Is it to keep the moisture from getting into my house or keep moisture from getting out of my house?
If I did use white cedar that would never be painted, would I still need to protect the back of the boards? Thanks for your input.
I'd go with a T-111 in fir or cedar and shingle it later. Here's what a board and batten can look like in thirty years because it is a very leaky siding.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I'd be pretty happy with board and batton lasting 30 years as long as my framing, insulation, floor and furniture along the walls didn't wind up looking like that. Do you think pine B&B that was soaked in a borate salt solution and then painted with cabots bleaching oil would hold up better (with tar paper or typar behind it)? How about white cedar witch is pretty rot-proof? Thanks for your input>
Borates are water soluble so they need reapplication occasionally. They are safe and effective but not enduring.
Regular application of oils will help but the problem, in part, is that B&B is not a very good water repellant siding. Checks and knots let water into the grain and it will get locked in behind the battens longer after it blows into it.
I was raised in a house that was B&B and had a hundred year old barn so built. It has strengths and good points but is not the best. Considering budget, future plans to cover it, water-resistance, and shear strength, the T111 is far better. Use Z flahing on joints.
Cedar is better than pine but is definitely not rot-proof. It is mildly rot resistant. Keep it wet and it will go by pretty quick. Cedar shingles use a fin/feather effect to stream water off, shedding it to dry quickly. B&B with checks and knots and vertical laps, will wick it up and hold onto it more.
can be done but you asked what is best imo.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I believe the reason that b&b outbuildings last so long is due to the single layer walls. In a house the lack of ventilation to the back side of the b&b causes rot and other problems quickly.
I stayed in a house in Eastern Kentucky that was not only board and batten, but was also known as a box or plank house because it had no studs. The outside was sheathed with roughsawn lumber which varied in thickness quite a bit, and the gaps were covered as well as possible with battens. The house was built by my grandfather who owned about 4 tools. He left the bottom end of the planks as the were from the mill, rather than handsawing them square, which gave an interesting profile. Needless to say, the house was impossibly drafty. My mother said that when she was a girl the snow or rain would blow in and cover the beds at night. The floors were roughsawn and no better. They had a fireplace for heat and to cook on until they were able to get a "warm morning" stove and a cookstove later when a kitchen was added.
In the early days there was no ceiling, and the roof was of shakes that grandpa split. There was no ceiling under them so the heat went straight out the roof. Later he nailed up tarpaper for a ceiling. There was no electricity so that was pretty dark. I guess some oil lamp light reflected off the newspaper that was used for wallpaper. Eventually roughsawn lumber was nailed up and whitewashed for a ceiling. Some years later drywall appeared in the hills, and it was put up in the newest section of the house. No one knew how to finish the joints, but they heard the compound was put on with knives, so they used butter knives. That was undoubtedly the worst looking drywall job I have ever seen.
Anyway, some of the sheathing was starting to rot, so the entire house was covered with "brick siding" which was asphalt siding. Too bad the nails penetrated the planks. I once cut my hand pretty bad when it hit the wall when I was asleep. Eventually all the walls were covered with panneling, which was a great improvement in that house.
I really miss going there, especially at this time of the year. As a child I would enter the house after a long day in the car traveling through some of the roughest areas in the country (in more than one way!). There would be a full house of loving family, the pungent smell of burning coal, stifling heat at the ceiling, ice cold at the floor, lots of appalchian food cooked up in the kitchen, bare bulbs glaring in my eyes, cigarette smoke stratified in a layer about 5 feet up from the floor. They were a dirt poor family in monetary means, but rich otherwise.
mark, mark.... stop .stop.. yur killin me...
you made this up , din't ya..?
sounds like stories my dad tole about the one-room school house in michigan in the '20's.....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/3/2003 10:31:20 PM ET by Mike Smith
If I told you the whole truth, you'd never believe me. Grandpa was a part time coal miner with 12 kids. He got caught running moonshine and was locked up for a while. He wasn't known for hard work. My mom was the oldest girl in the family, so she had to pretty much take care of the other kids and cook. Really they were so poor that the poor folks called them poor. Liked to starved to death sometimes. The older boys hunted a lot, but game was pretty scarce. They survived though. They never much accepted government help but instead worked hard to overcome their difficulties. All except a couple became fairly successful. My uncle owns the old house which he uses for a warehouse for his business now. He built a nice brick home up at the head of the creek while he was working as a UPS driver. Most everyone else moved away because Eastern Kentucky is a difficult area to make a living, no industry at all anymore. Electricity was not even available there until the mid 50's.
whooooeeee.... the good old days...
my Mom spent her yute in Marmouth , ND... her dad was a doctor with a stipend from the Milwaulkee Road, used to make his house calls by dog sled in the winter... a and got paid with chickens and turnips.....
she was the oldest of 9.... could make the meanest stone soup.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, my dad had it about as rough as mom, but they had a logging operation and farm. Dad cut timber with an axe for the mines. They also had a small coal mine on the property for the house. Grandpa worked the mines, and also worked in the industrial north for a period. Incidentally both grandpas died from black lung and emphasema. Moms dad died about the time I was born, so I don't rember him. He had a couple kids not even in school yet when he passed on.
Dads farm was sold years ago. I heard that a lot of coal was taken off it, and there are oil and gas wells on it now. Dad said there was an area where oil would bubble up in the creek. Kind of funny now, probably was a lot of money in minerals on it, and the mineral rights were not sold off it like most places there. It was several hundred acres, only about 4 or 5 flat though. The highest point in Breathitt county was on the farm.
We were borderline Appalachian in Western New York. The house was built in 1832 from same studless B&B walls. Right after Dad bought it(I was in Kindergarten then - one room school house wherre I got my head start on education by being able to listen in on the eighth graders science classes) he had asbestos siding and a real honest to goodness asphalt roof put on. The interior walls had been done in V-groove knotty pine but the floors were all plank so the draft came up from the crawl space. We turned our attention there next. Dad paid me the handsome sum of 25 cents for every bucket of dirt I dug and hauled out 'cause he was making a bomb shelter. Two words - JFK and Cuba were on the headlines of the paper I carried in every day back then.
The bathroom door was plank with see-through cracks and a thumb latch. I remember how suprised I was the first time I realized that some people have privacy in the bathroom. All four of my brothers and I shared the same bath water. As the oldest (first in the tub), I never realized how bad that was until a couple months ago when my youngest brother and I were reminiscing and he expained it from his viewpoint...
We ate well though from an acre or so of garden. We put up vegetables and potaoes in bushels almost lasted for a meal every day until the new were in. The neighbor raised fowl and they were hard on the garden so one year, when I was maybe fourteen or fifteen, I knocked on their door the day I planted and announced that if trhey got into my garden to ruin it again, I would blow them to kingdome come. The guy just laughed it off and said yeah sure kid.
Next AM I looked out to see about thirty of the critters in my plantings scratching it up so I reached for the twelve GA. I left three lying for fertilizer and one dragging his wing home across the road while the others managed to scatter too quick.
Never had a problem with them again, but I found out how much louder a shotgun is when you touch her off from inside the house..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Ha Ha
That was a pretty good story. I love old houses like your old home. Here in Ohio there are few of them that old. I keep looking though.
Moms old house was very poor construction as I said. It stood on sandstone "piers", had a tar covered tin roof, and not even close to a straight line to it. Everything was built by eye, I dont think a level or measure was used on it.
Dads house was pretty rough, but way better than moms. He got all the lumber from his dads sawmill. I hear great grampa was a real mountain man. Dad was not at all fond of him. Talk about kids though, he had over 20, after his first wife died he married another young one. Great grampa had quite a operation going before the depression. He had a sawmill that was run from a steam engine off a old tug boat. He also had a grist mill and a lot of property. For some reason the grist mill exploded while dad was there with his cousin. They were the same age and pretty much great friends. Anyway, a large piece of the millstone hit his cousin in the head and killed him instantly. Nothing was ever found, but it was suspected that someone slipped dynamite in the corn. I guess great grampa had a lot of enemies. Dad wont talk about that one, I heard that story from his older brother. Dad does talk about the time uncle virgil had the steam up and dad was looking in a pond of water at the pretty little waves and the reflection of a bird, and virgil wailed on the horn. Woke him out of his daydream! He still is mad over that.
I just start thinking about all this stuff at the holidays.
is it feasible?
well, maybe, but - - here's some considerations - framing: Mike Smith already mentioned racking, and yes you can let in bracing, but beyond that there has to be nailers/blocking to attach the boards without having unsupported board ends and such - for a solid job on a house, I think you need to run horizontal furring - yes you can block, but it's a PITA, and the numbers of doors and windows in a house add to the complexity of the job - one reason B&B went out of style is that when stick framing became the norm, the lack of horizontal elements in the framing meant no nailers which to attach the siding -
another factor is that cupping of the boards is near inevitable which will cause problems if you do get to shingle -
I guess my suggestion is if you proceed with your plan, to commit yourself to a 'FINE' job of B&B such that if you never get it shingled, it does not grate on you every time you approach your house - the white cedar sounds like a good material - I agree with BEMW that a 20' wall without a break could be unpleasing - I'd suggest consideration of step or break between the stories -
which brings up flashing details - the main problem with house wrap/tarpaper over framing is not punching/tearing holes as the siding operation proceeds, particularly because it makes it difficult to locate nailing -
horizontal trim elements above window/doors are impossible to flash - here's a link to a couple of discussions about B&B -
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=26163.1
make that one link - the discussion I really wanted to find doesn't seem to have made the migration when Taunton changed the software - oh well -
good luck - DOUD
David...that's pretty funny. You linked to the same link you were linking to...er...you know what I mean.
As to how tight B&B siding can be, let me throw out this question to help johncollins: My local rough sawn supplier of B&B materials (white pine or hem/Fir) offers to plane/joint one side of the battens for an extra fee per bd'. He says this makes the batten that much tighter a seal for weatherization
Does anyone recomend/do this? Is it an effective improvement?
(I've got a stake in this as well, as I'll be doing B&B on my pole barn shop next summer....)
Thanks, Stray - - let's try this - http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
still hate this format/software -
edit: SOB - I call up the search, bring up the discussion, edit/copy-edit/paste and this is what comes up - I'm going to try another way - let's try this - http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=25213.1
Edited 1/3/2003 3:56:12 PM ET by David Doud