I would like to discuss your design theories. I know that there is a wealth of knowledge here , if we can take it to points of interrest great enough for us to click “print” at the end of this thread, and it be of interrest to common readers. This is your chance to write a chapter if you want of imformative knowledge to our readers. Discussion must be for all people , not just tradesmen. We talk our trades to death on here which is probably what it was intended for , but I know there is more information in detail. Now , here is a rule I will make so that we can get started . Any person can pick a person to talk about a topic of design. I will start with Boss Hog , when he gets here. I will be emailing him, or contacting him via breaktime. Are you up to the challenge ? If not, I hope you will enjoy!
Tim Mooney
Replies
Boss ,
Could you share with us the most unigue designs of trusses that impress you? As an old owner question goes , the designs maybe that offer more for the buck? What about trusses built that have storage ? Im only trying to get you started . Feel free to talk about any thing that impresses you. A tip for good reason? What about top selling trusses and why are they sold as number one orders ? When we build a house , often the roof serves as much as a front as the shrubs , or the overall design of the house , to add sex appeal . Comments ? I could go on , but it will be the subject you would like to talk about.
Thanks in advance ,
Tim Mooney
I would also like to ask Stan Foster if he would be willing to do the same . Stair design? Ive sent him a message .
Tim Mooney
I see, the focus is on design issues?
One thing I focus on is proportion and balance for the visual effect. A person has to feel comfortable in his surrondings. One of the effects of architectural design is to define space. That isn't always done with walls and roof. Furnmiture arrangement or detail lines on a floor in a lrage room can do the same or plantings and pergolas in exterior spaces.
Another is traffic flow and light flow in a house.
One that bothers me about a lot of modern design is the drip line. Valleys from three roof sections directing water to cascade right down over the entry door. There is no excuse for that! it speaks of architects who never leave the dry, airconditioned office and use roof lines to make a statement, instead of to keep people dry.
Remember the rule, Form Follows function!
Good thread idea, it'll be educational for all of us..
Excellence is its own reward!
You have got the idea . I will also enter a few to boggle minds every where . LOL
I have noticed kitchens on customer plans that are not the same size realitively as the house . The customers fell in love with the plan , but neglected to concentrate on the amount of storage. I have added closets off the kitchen , with roll out drawers to make up for the small amount of storage . Its cheaper than cabinets and the closets built seem to have a great holding capacity. Which in the end , saved them money, and made better use of a plan that was to small in that area. Figgure the cubic feet in a closet , and the cubic feet that cabinets provide . I would do this now , but Ive got a party to go to at a friends house.
Cheers ,
Tim Mooney
That one reminds me of a couple Capes we've built with storage built in under the eaves. The exterior kneewall was about 42" to 54" high. We build a deep closet in front of it to bring the front to about 7' for placement of a door set. Another had large built in drawers for blankets in the lower 18" and shutter style cabinet doors for clothes rod hanging above.
My wife and I like to wathc those old time romance movies together. I never know what the plot is, who done what, or who the actors are. I'm busy studying the architectural details in the settings of thosee old mansions. I like to taker the camera along when we travel for the same reason. She'll be wondering why I took certain pictures. LOL better than some guys who find the viewfinder on the video camera finding it's way to a bosom or a finely formed derierre. "How'd that get in here?".
Excellence is its own reward!
On relative size of kitchen -
I had to install one that was a lovely kitchen. I didn't fit the house anymore than a bikini would look good on me tho'
I think the lady went to the HD and just said, I want that one..
Excellence is its own reward!
Ok, I was thinking comming home that you might think that I cheated taking picks first . But , I really feel this way;
For one there are several first picks left . IMO. But other than that There are a lot of subs , contractors, tradesmen, handy men , etc. Let me explain this to you;
An electrician , plumber, painter, remoleler, etc. can contribute here . Yall cant tell this old man that you boys havent picked up some hot licks , and some ideas that are etched in stone in your mind. Just because Ive only mentioned a few doesnt mean I have left you out. Im going to ramble a little so I can sit your mind to thinking .
Im fighting an issue with my self of 24 vs 19 spacing of trusses and studs. We talk about 5/8 drywall being fire code . Well, who pays the bill on that ? Where are the savings ? My insurance company has offered no break. They have given a huge break to concrete siding. Should houses be built with only concrete floors , and we expect a savings on insurance ? I know that Im picking money here , but havent I always heard that build sq footage first ? Are expensive roofs necesary to sell a home ? Should a new home today be figgured with an office , like we figgure bedrooms ? Are the cheap toilets I see at blow out prices here for 39.95 actually functionable ? If they are why do they cost a couple hundered dollars? Send me away feeling differently than I do walking out of Chunky Cheese! Should a home have a whirlpool? How about huge dressing areas serving as walk in closets ? What about built ins in these areas also? I agree with Piffin that I have seen roofs pitched in to walkways , and I detest it . I know if I talk on some areas like windows , we are going to get in to geographical. I sold a home off a kick butt set of stairs that was veiwed in the entry. These stairs was the only WOW in the house I could see. Stan could step in here. These stairs however werent in Stans class! Much below his standards , but they were long and winding . Every one said WOW! Hence ; sex appeal. Every house in the addition had an expensive roof , and nothing was noted about it . I spent 10,000 extra there folks . I was so proud of it , and nothing was said. What about a lot of tile ? Wood floors? Are we comming to a point that carpet is not cool , like smoking in public? I have seen a total lay of hard wood floors . What about all tile ? What about our R and R men ? What are we tearing out ? What are we putting in ? Ten years ago the world seemed to be going viynl siding . Big mistake there ! Is concrete siding going to slide in its place ? Forecast . What about kitchens and bath rooms ? Are you seeing a changing trend ? Kick butt offices ? Tell us your strongest points you believe in and voice it . Let us consider your points you are set in .
Boss , any time you could spend would be appreciated , I just named a few . Im not asking you cover all that. We would be happy with a paragraph you are writing any way. Im afraid like usual that you really took THE serious side , and I know you are a complete person in your work. Off the cuff would be appreciated , but I will respect your decision of no time if you dont , as we all will.
Tim Mooney
Tim I am building four additions on one house in a neighborhood that is changing from 1800 sq. ft. ranches to 4000 to 6000 mini mansions. one of the main reasons for this type of change is that the lots are alot bigger and have hundred year old oaks and other mature landscaping. this seems to be more appealing then the new developments with no trees and the houses are ten ft. apart.One of the additions is a large laundry room with cabinets sink and hanging area for drying and storing. This is right off the side entrance which lets them come in the house clean up if need be and even have a change of clothes The old laundry room is small but I'm converting it to a changing room with bench and four locker like built ins so they have a place to store their weather gear and outside play things. Both these rooms have doors so that they can hide the mess when their friends come in the side entrance. Two of the additions are bump outs in the front the front door bumpout is a tall gable made of stone with a large front porch of stone. It has a barrel vault over arched front doors with gas lights on the exterior stone wall.I put in an aimable recessed light to highlight the front doors. All this stone work has turned into a real attention getter I've had neighbors and builders both stop and talk to me and have landed two more additions with the adjacent neighbors. I think that stone has become a really hot facade here and I've thought of some even sharper front entryways that I can implement in the future.
ANDYSZ2
Hello .
Ok, Im going to add here with your stone . Im living in the last house my father built . The fire place is massive for there are three fireplace flues at the point of the main floor all incased in a rock colunm . My fathers hobby was to hunt in the mountains for rock with differnt facial design. I wont go into all that he layed in this fireplace that goes up high to the a frame ceiling that also takes in the second floor. Its an open plan . I will say that it is a museum of rocks to be admired . It was the main focal point in the house , that is now shared with the stairs, and wood floors . . All in my mind are awsome together. I also layed a native rock entry floor out side the door , porches, walks, and flower beds . The outside is very rustic in nature for all the trees . Seems we played on the same thing . In the winter time , the shades are opened to take in the landscape , while a fire place insert glows , with trickleing flames . Life is good .
Tim Mooney
Tim I would like to see a picture of the fireplace.Since I started this project I can't seem to get enough visual input on stone facades I catch myself driving around just to see different styles.
ANDYSZ2
I will have to borrow a digital camera , my camera has been sent to Dallas Tx. And I have never posted a pic on here , but I guess its time I learned .
Tim Mooney
> I have noticed kitchens on customer plans that are not the same size realitively as the house . The customers fell in love with the plan , but neglected to concentrate on the amount of storage. I have added closets off the kitchen , with roll out drawers to make up for the small amount of storage
That's because there's a room missing in modern houses: the pantry. In my remodel, the pantry is a long narrow room lined with cabinets and counters, located adjacent to the kitchen, between the kitchen and the dining room.
-- J.S.
Pantrys are common here in older houses, the nicer places having two, a butlers pantry for the dishware and a cooks pantry for pots, pans and food stuffs.
In my house, The pantry and laundry are one as a back enbtry off the kitchen. Latest issue of JLC has an article on this very subject matter. I consider it a must have.
Kitchens have become larger in my experience, because they are a family ccenter. These wealthy homes used to have extremely tight, small, utilitarian kitchens styled after slaves quarters and the wealthy owner never entered the hot smelly room. I've completely re-modeled three, openning them up into pleasent, efficient rooms. I see wealthy families with miles of rooms to hang out in who will now congregate in the kitchen, dragging the bill payments etc all right in there with them.
All that in spite of the fact that most people eat fewer meals at home than they used to..
Excellence is its own reward!
Tim: Count me in...thanks for the invite
Dang, Tim - You're really asking me to cover a lot of ground here. Don't know how I could ever do that in a post or two. (Maybe even ten)
There are so many issues that could be covered in truss stuff - truss uplift, common mistakes, scheduling and delivery, quality issues, building your own trusses, floor vibration, etc. I could go on until you were all bored senseless. Which subjects are the most important?
Actually, I've already done this once. Remember the thread a few months ago about floor vibration? I spent quite a bit of time explaining how I felt about that.
I'd be happy to work on some sort of "truss primer", and have even thought about contacting Andy about an article in Fine Homebuilding. Also talked about putting a truss related web page on Joe Fuscoe's site, but have not gotten around to it.
Those projects may have to wait until after farming season - I have a heck of a lot going on right now. Winter is typically slow, so that might be a good time.
One last note - If you click on my name here and send me an email, it goes to my work email address. Since I'm on vacation this week I won't see it until Monday the 21st.
So while I appreciate the request, I don't see anything happening in the near future. Dancing cheek-to-cheek is really a form of floor play.
Tim.
More specifically what sort of detailing are you looking for in this discussion? Did you notioce the aniversary issue of JLC with drawings of method details?
On the same subject, more or less are "Architectural details" in the gallery where I am looking for photos shared from old buildings and the old "what to show on plans" thread linked below.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=23908.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=23455.1
Excellence is its own reward!
Im looking for any idea the people here have to better the information here such as your post , but it doesnt have to be in the plans. I will hit print when yours is done , and file it in my office. I dont think it makes any difference what it might be as long as they think its worth while to print . Your post brought up ideas for things to be on a house plan , Im looking past that into other things it doesnt cover and maybe it will repeat , its their call. Im trying to use the information they have , and their foresight.
Thanks ,
Tim Mooney
Tim:
Great idea. If a beer can chicken cookbook can sell like hotcakes (mixed metaphor?), then why not the "The Unofficial Woodshed Tavern Design Code". We'll just need to be careful to keep it hidden from (the) "Brain(sp?)", or Taunton's legal beagels will soon be after us. One possible suggestion: how about first develop some hard "rules"(aka as "regs"). The contributor can then flesh them out after we debate and vote "yea/nay" as to their merit? That presents the problem of a goal: 20 regs--too small, 100?--too big?, 50--almost right, perhaps a bit low?. Okay, as we're all adults, and certainly co-ed here, how about "The Woodshed Tavern's 69 Mandatory Design Regs". Utility of this, future editions will be clearly identifiable by the ever increasing number of regs...
Regards,
Rework
Ok , Im going to admit something to you . I picked the best title for the thread I could come up with for peope to take a look . Yes, it was a bit of selling . But , its also true that we as members should take some thing away. We are a group anyway you want to slice it , and a group takes members. I really just hope this thread gets off the ground at this point, because Im asking for extra. If it does , then maybe it could be a permanant location in breaktime. Thats hoping for a lot extra . Im just hoping we contribute enough to all walk away with some special knowlege. Theres no telling how many minds are here . Maybe Brian will comment to that . Im just one , and Im not a blackeyed pea in the big pot . You want to cover your subject ?
Tim Mooney
Don't worry about it getting off the ground, Tim. It's been a slow night here. Not too many around. Give it a day.
Good design ideas always get better when they brew awhile.
I know what you mean about subs and tradesmen having good ideas. Therre was once a tiome when nobody listened to me because I was just a lowly roofer in dirty clothes. My plumbers have some of the best ideas. I think in part it's because they have to haul heavy and sometimes long stuff in, around, up, and through, these houses. That makes them pay attention to traffic patterns and door placement. No house should be designed to accomadate the plumber but we should listen to what he has to say.
Concrete is a design issue. It's durable and resists mold. Lot more of it going in. But it'd be good to hear from those who have to live with it. Do they feel like it's comfortable.
Excellence is its own reward!
Ok, here goes my latest one . This is me .
This work is in an exectutive home .
I just gutted a bedroom that wasnt used in a 30 yr old house. Im getting it ready to sell, and I had to come up with ideas to improve the old design . I made a huge walkin closet out of half of it and opened it up to a pretty big closet already there. I put them together. Its a dressing room with a really large amount of storage. I added built ins also. I installed a laundry chute in the same closet too. Storage for 150 pair of shoes . A boot rack, and a cabinet that holds underwear and socks.Every bit of wall space was used for storage , packing it in there . I can walk in and get ready , walk out dressed with out diry clothes in my hands.
The other half of the room ;
I built a galley office . 12 ft of counter , 12 ft of top cabinets over , file cabinets in the middle under. Behind me ; wall to wall shelves that have bifold doors. floor , cabinets , trim, in oak. Its a little fancy and a lot of office storage .
This is a make over from a bedroom . I now have three bedrooms instead of four. Only the master down stairs , and two up stairs.
Tim Mooney
I have asked Ed to join us . I will also be looking for Mike Smith , Gerald Hayes , Jim Blodget , Notchman , Cloud Hidden , Adrian, Luka , Rich Beckman , J Fussco, and of course the women , all of them for which we try to please .
Tim Mooney
Tim: I am with Boss....this could take many posts....so I will just hit basic stair design....and try to answer any questions.
Stair construction should be of course strong and the workmanship should be high. This is usually the first thing that you see when you step into the house...and it is usually the most major carpenter built thing in the home.
The stength part is something I am obsessed with...I try to build my stairs so that it is constructed very strong and also with simple techniques. I feel the treads and risers shoould be mortised into the wall stringers..and then wedged up tight internally. This is the stoutest method I know of...and it is time proven as well.
I always attach the risers to the treads with pocket screws and glue. The screws alone make this joint very secure..and a bonus to this method is that the the riser is pulled up very tight to the tread letting the glue contribute much more to the integrity of the joint. This makes a joint with redundancy...the screws could actually be removed and you still have a strong I-beam effect with the glue joint itself. This method removes all need for any middle stair stringers for stair sections up to 60 inches wide...which covers almost all stairs. A bonus to this method is that there are no visible exterior fasteners....no nailing through the tread..which is not near as strong anyway.
The tread returns are put on with swoop miters..and pocket screwed and glued as well....again,,,very strong,,,very fast....and no visible fasteners....a win..win..win
The wall stringers are always 5/4 stock at minimum..since this is structural as well as cosmetic. These stringers are mortised to receive the treads and risers...and again..this is not only the stoutest method I know..it is also the most craftsmanlike method as well. It is very pleasing to the eye to see tightly fit treads and risers secured up tight with internal wedges....this method is very. very unlikely to develop a squeak..as the ends of the treads are not free to move against the stringer. Also...wood moves and the best scribed and fit tread can still develop a gap months down the road...This was the catalyst for me to start mortising my treads and risers years ago. I had revisited a house with a stairway I had built about a year prior..and I went over to critique my work that I was so proud of when I finished the stairway. I looked in horror at how much my originally tightly scribed tread to stringer fit had now developed about 1/16 gaps. I have not built a stairs this way since........In short....I find mortising treads and risers the strongest method..the cleanest looking method..and as a bonus...the fastest method....another win.win.win
Simple things like securing the balusters with bolts is another side topic. In short..it makes a very secure baluster to tread connection,...with no threat of a gap developing as the glued dowels sometimes have. It is the strongest practical way I know of...I say practical because balusters dovetailed into the treads are the absolute strongest way to go..but I have only had one job where the client did not mind paying the labor for this method. So...for all practical purposes...I am very content with going the second best route of using bolts.
Volumes could be written on stairway construction..as I have many books in my collection right now. I have just scratched the surface here. I basically use what methods work for me that gives the client a very strong stairway..done so in a craftsmanlike manner,,,,and also accomplished in an efficient manner.
Thank you, and applause .
Now a design question. Ive heard you talk about using different woods before. This seems to be a big concern of matching color , and the right approach to the existing surrounding in the room. I chose oak in a set of stairs I had built in the house mentioned above . I felt some contrasting was in order , so I went the first floor of oak to match. I also put the same oak and white on the beams above in an a frame room . The sides of the beam being white , the top and bottom being oak, thus coping the stairs. Also I have a fireplace that was the only center point of this room , until the oak stairs were born. So, I spent a week on a mantel to match. Ive always wanted to ask you what the other parts of the room look like when walnut is chosen . [for example]
Tim Mooney
Tim: Usually the stairway treads are of the same species as any stained trim or flooring in the house. There are exceptions of course..and some clients like contrast.
I may not agree with their choices..but they are paying the bill and are the ones that have to look at it. All I can do is suggest what I feel looks best and this is usually the conservative approach of keeping all the stained wood the same.
However..contrasting woods do have a unique look if stained properly.
I did a stairway for a client that was in a cedar log home. A very beautiful log home as well...huge beams and such...but they wanted a contemporay stairway in oak. I tried to talk them into a more rustic cedar type of stairway,,,,half log steps,,,round cedar balusters...etc...but they wanted a contemporay stairway and thats what I built. It did not go at all...but I gave my input and then remained silent..except for the saws cutting out the contemporary stairway..and an occasional muffled moan coming from my pinched lips.
Does carpet play a role in the same room with your stairbuilding ? Im really trying to get some one to make a hit on this one . No one has touched it yet . Seems the mags only have carpet in the advertisements for such. Is this a statement ? You did say however that normally wood floors to match were the case .
Tim Mooney
Tim....almost all the time...there is either tile..or hardwood on the flyer floor,,,,and almost always..carpet on the second level....with a carpet runner going up the stairs.
Tim, thanks, for the invitation to this thread. It will be a long one, about design and what the buying public wants, IMHO.
Some of the people here know I live in Naples, FL, where the average water table is about 2-5 feet below grade, depending on if it's our rainy season (summer) or winter. So I'll address problems and nuances of my area.
1. No basements - all monolithic slabs.
2. Land is no longer available so new houses/developments are at the extreme ends of our county.
3. Consequently, older home's prices are going up quickly.
4. Lots start at about $100K. Lots close in, if they can be found, are about $200K and up.
I closed (7-14-01) on my 21 year old, 1800 sq. ft. ranch here in Lakewood, a deed restricted subdivision, with three bedrooms, split design, 2 baths, family room, 2 car garage, 12' x 27' lanai with roof over for $165K, Asking was 180K - no pool. Since then, the price has risen to about $185K, and that doesn't include the remodeling I've done so far - new kitchen (and redesigned), tile and carpet thru-out including marble entry.
The average house sold here last year was about $250K. That's a combination of both old and new. Average inflation on houses here was 8% and up to 15% in one year. In mine it was about 12%, because of the location of my development.
You guys are gonna laugh when I tell you my kitchen includes the cheapest Mills Pride cabinets Home Depot sells. Doors and drawer fronts are Venice (raised arch). Tops are red Corian. (OK, so Barb always wanted red tops). I could have gotten granite - free - from a supplier, but Barb got what she wanted, at half my regular price - another supplier.
I recently entered into an agreement with a client to buy, remodel and sell homes like mine. He will pay the down payments, closing costs, etc., and I'll set up a separate account with Home Depot for all materials, and do some work and sub out most of the work. We will spit the profits 50/50.
Here is a major problem as I see it. As tradesmen first and business people second, we nearly always put the primary emphasis upon the quality of the materials use and the quality of the workmanship.
The reason builders use cheaper materials and whose quality of workmanship is often suspect, is because that's what the "buyers" accept, even want. The buyers accept that because they, and I'll say, "generally", are more interested in 1) flash, and 2) layout. It is impressive looking and is the layout nice?
Talk to realtors. They know exactly what sells and what doesn't, where it sells and where it doesn't. They know what people "buy" and will pay extra for. Again, once "location" has been established, "flash" and "layout" are the next two priorities. I've read enough books and business articles that verify the fact that to the majority of the buying public, and regardless of what they are buying, their philosophy of "it's good enough", is true. Most of us haven't learned that yet, so we keep selling our #1 priority - workmanship. We poo-poo anything like my Mills Pride cabinets because we sell and perceive "value" by our own "perception" - not the buyers "perception."
Here's an example of my point. My son is building about a $630K house. His wife - mind you the wife of a successful remodeler - told Tom, while in my kitchen: "I really like your Mom's cabinets. Can we have them in our house?" Tom and I busted out laughing!
OK, more pertinent to my area.
Garages are not as we used to build in Michigan - 24' x 24'. Here, they are 20 x 22 or 20 x 20, and again, no basements. So storage is a premium and well designed storage is wanted by our buyers. Ditto for kitchen layouts. I always include pantry cabinets and pull out trays in all base cabinets. Even an upper tray with a "U" shaped notch cut out for the drain and disposal, or a shorter one. Ditto in vanity bases.
Since all of the newer houses that are being built have vaulted or cathedral ceilings, it's important of older houses like mine to have tray ceilings, with crown molding around the perimeter is even nicer, with rope lighting is an WOW.
Luscious landscaping is important, as is granite or Corian, as is a lot of tile and/or marble. The old jalousie windows are out and single hung windows are a must on these older houses. Insulated glass will get you nothing extra on the price. Nicely treated exterior entries is also important. Even a cheap driveway with a patterned paint job is better than plain concrete. Walkway lighting and some landscape lighting sells.
In my house, 2-1/4" casing was used as baseboard. I changed it, and the casing to colonial, and standard 3-1/4" baseboard. It will get me nothing as mare as extra money. All doors were changed to MDF doors with a panel at the bottom and the large top panel with the arch at the top. That will get me extra money.
When finished with landscaping and a circular drive, I'll refinance and use the extra money to buy another house to remodel myself. Why not use the equity in my house (at a 4% mortgage) to make more money?
So there's my take on this subject of design and why buyers consider important - in "their" perception, - not mine.
Builders are smart. They "build" what "sells." Ego has nothing to do with it, other than satiating their egos with the monies they make.
It's funny when I think about it. They make money, easy money, selling what we consider a joke. The those same buyers call us a few years later to do some remodeling, and the opportunity for us to do what we want to do - good materials and good workmanship - but then they then bust our chops about our prices.
I say, play their game. Sell what they buy. Make money.
"I say, play their game. Sell what they buy. Make money. "
Thanks Sonny for your imput . I knew that your response would be about money . Im an investor first , and a tradesman second. The second feeds the first. Ive always done my work as other people want it , Im not going to change now. Barb is happy isnt she ? Seems her daughterinlaw would have been too.
Now that you have replied , I will mention something else.
In an addition with roofs from hell , lining the street on both sides , one would expect their roof to be built that way. On a home away from from those, sitting by itself , would they expect it then ? Let me keep say 10, 000 in my pocket ?
Tim Mooney
Tim, it never used to be about money. Then I found out that to most other people, it "is" about money. Notice I said "most." To those few who don't put money 1st, receive what they should from me because if I didn't give them what they wanted regardless of price, I'd be betraying their trust. I highly value trust.
Back in Michigan in the mid 70's. I felt sorry of an older couple so I always used to give them a deal when they hired me to do small projects for them. The wife always talked poor mouth. One day the lady mentioned they always eat all three meals in a restaurant each day, and I realized their car was always traded in every other two years. I started charging them my regular price. Never heard from them again.
Had many other instances like that.
It's still about being very ethical, doing right by people, doing a "good" job, but now it's also about getting paid for what I apparently represent to them as far as "value." I pay for it when I make a purchase. Since then, my client's also pay for it when retaining my services. In fact, it's that money that allows me to do the philanthropic things I do, both by spending my Time, what's left of it, and actual cash.
Somewhere back in time I became a businessman 1st. When that happened I obtained what all of us want most in life - peace of mind. I play the game and win almost daily. And the days I lose, I don't lose any sleep over it due to good cash flow, good working capital, and after all, and this may sound crazy, but it's only money. Work smart , as opposed to hard, to obtain it, but be it's master, not it's slave. And peace of mind always trumps money.
I used to feel the same way when I was a sub contractor . Almost runined my thinking . The only thing that changed my carreer was the lack of money after trying to please with my best work. I also noticed that I was seeing cheaper and cheaper materials delivered in the floor. I saw corners cut, and they kept asking me to do more for the same price. I remember when contractors stood together in wanting drywall returned on windows for nothing. Fir downs wrapped at no charge . Heat closets hung and taped prior to my starting date at no additional charge . I also was a painter , and I was required to come back to do touch ups at no charge . The list just grew , the longer I knew a contractor. One day while working for a very good contractor that appreciated my work, I thought, left me puzzeled . Seems that they ran out of drywall , and hung the utility room out of scraps. 27 joints in a small room if I remember correctly . I pondered as what to do. I came to a decision to tape it , and leave it. The builder was upset that I had left it behind and didnt finish it . I brought it to his attention that he valued 15 dollars more than me , for thats what it would have cost to hang it . We parted ways on my decision . I told him to deduct the room footage , for thats what I should have done in the first place . You know , that didnt satisfy him either ? I only work for my value now , nothing less .
But that gets us back to the thread . Value percieved in design . There are some things that dont pay as you noted . We surely want to do the things that do pay in our designs. For we all want to get paid for our percieved value , not lose over our mistakes.
Tim Mooney
Sonny , I would like to take this oportunity to thank you for comming and giving us your veiw point on this subject . The reason I asked you was to bring a money side to this subject . I wanted to bring a sensible approach to the idea of design . You did that as I expected. Also I thank you for your advice in the money feild , for I changed my business also a good while back when you were here before. You the man ! Your postings caused me to make the change . Also , the handicap issue . You took the time to send me all that stuff and Ive never forgot it . I owe you . I want to take this oportunity to thank you once again for that , because I now have added that to my business as money will allow . You saw that in a post above I wrote . Thanks Sonny !
Tim Mooney
Thanks, Tim.
Let me tell you a philosophy I learned/developed many years ago.
Many people before us have given a lot to the world. People like Dr. Salk, the lady (can't remember her name) who developed penicillin, Gandhi, Pasteur, and many others who gave of themselves and received nothing in return except perhaps for notoriety for their contributions.
So I developed a mind set that each of us must give something back to society. We owe it. If we don't, then we just become parasites, enjoying and living off the achievements of others.
So we give back, when, where and how we can. The best thing I hope I've instilled in my four kids is to be thankful for those people before us, and make sure to give back.
Zig Ziglar said that as one climbs the ladder of success, s/he should reach down and pull someone else up as well. In that vein, I've always felt that human relationships have the highest value in our lives, almost spiritual, and more than any material thing that can be purchased.
It's unfortunate that for too many of us, that is not recognized or realized until we got to my age and assess our past, present and purpose. Being thankful and appreciative allows one to help those who will live beyond our own lives.
On a lighter note, and as I jump off my soap box, that's why I sometimes come across as a nag. (-: I hate to see in others, the tears, sweaty palms or sleepless nights like those I've experienced. The wheel should not have to be reinvented with each generation.
On a positive note, I'm in the process of finalizing a battery of tests stemming from my annual physical and stress test and so far, it looks like I'll be around for a while. Amazing - 45 years of smoking and my lungs are clear. I guess He still has things for me to do and has forgiven my smoking addiction.
Tim, show no fear (they can smell it on you!)
Sonny, My philosophy has always been "Drag some of them down with you!" That's why, no kids, and the same addiction! Nick
I guess my addiction is Breaktime, but one major reason I'm here is the same - give something back.
I still remember the guy who first "held my hand" for six months of learning the basics while we built a couple cabins together. He didn't just tell me WHAT to do. He helped me understand WHY & HOW, right down to how to hold a paint brush..
Excellence is its own reward!
I spoke on offices , briefly.
Its my believe that older houses dont have them , unless they have been installed. Ive talked to a number of people that have computers , and also to ones that are using an office . It was a poll of questioning. Here are my findings from the good people who spent the time with me and answered my questions .
Most homes use a put it over there approach. In homes where there is an extra bedroom, they normally use it for such if its not the guest bedroom . [mamas picky about the guest bedroom ] More often than not , there are no bedrooms available for an office. They are then stuck in a kitchen, or a den . Some times a basement if it allows . A percentage of people dont use one at home if they have one at work. The reasons for that is of course one , the obvious, two is the price , but thats changing , three [drum roll please ; they have no place to put it , but this could mean no money too. No unhappiness was noted about the poor conditions . That seemed to be accepted , as they were just happy to own a computer, and have a place to work.
People in offices are not happy ! Period ! They not only think they should be payed more , but they think that their office sux, was the word I got more than anything else . I saw a need [Sonny ] to start a business offering office make overs. The presentation would have tobe made to the boss. I found no organization in the offices I toured . There was a desk , file cabinet , and boxes in most cases in the floor , that they worked out of on a daily basis. If they needed a copier ,fax, a big machine they had to walk down the hall , and eait on someone to finish their work on the machine. Some times faxes are only checked once a day. The situation I found struck me as horrible for professionals. What I noticed was all the space in the office not being used. I thought of all the storage they could have . Some of the offices I seen were just cubes , and they were certainly full. Crowded professionals trying to make do. They were not happy , and I dont blame them !
I will list an office well thought out and attractive, a God send to these people in a home remodeled, or new ! Im still thinking about the offices at work!
The reason for this post is to try to put us on top of our business in home design. Im really beginning to think that design scared some people . The word design. Im thinking that I should have called it" home planning " . Its not hard stuff . Just common sense , in our homes and the people we do jobs for , to sell us more work . For my reasons , its my living . I want to lead the competition , being able to sell any home I buy or build in 30 DAYS, at my price !
Im a student of the Sonny , Carnegie , and Ziglar schools.
Dont believe for one minute that this crowd is not as good as the people in the plan business ! I know you , and I believe in this group. Dont sell your self short ! You are people that are trying to better yourself by being here, and also help other people . DO IT! Now , lets get out there in the second half and kick some butt!
Tim Mooney
Tim, thanks for keeping this thread alive, and the thoughts coming. I'm afraid however that the ideal home is very different to most individuals. Its the old "spice of life" argument that tries to approve of all the different ways of thinking in this world. Normally, and that is a vague qualifier, the more people that the house appeals to, the faster it sells, for the most money. But you already knew that, didn't you!! Here in Paradise, it amazes me that currently several developments are building 1500 foot, fairly basic ramblers and selling them crazy for 350,000. After that price range, there is a big gap in action until you approach 2-3 million custom homes and up from there. An agent told me that anybody that could afford half a million, could probably afford 2 and get just what they want. By the time somebody is spending that sort of cash, they think the house is boudnd to be perfect, and that must put a LOT of pressure on the architechts. You don't know what yuo want, but expect to get it for all that money. I have seen some pretty weird/unique/stupid/crazy/ cutting edge sort of stuff around here, and I blame the money for most of it. They just have to be different. That attitude is probably what made them rich enough to afford it. Now the perfect rental, or starter house is something we should be able to do, but even then regional differences will make chang e inevitable, hence the need for local architechs. I just wish that in order to draw plans, they were required to work one year as construction apprentices, and they have to live in the first house drawn. Keep reaching for perfection, I'm pretty sure it's a goal attainable for very few, but we gotta keep trying!!
Dan Laundry rooms should be close to bedrooms, shorten up those trips with baskets.
We've always liked the laundry close to the kitchen. That is my wife's command center. Telephone, stove, craft table, and laundry, all going at the same timme!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin "We've always liked the laundry close to the kitchen. That is my wife's command center. Telephone, stove, craft table, and laundry, all going at the same timme!"
Dan Laundry rooms should be close to bedrooms, shorten up those trips with baskets.
Agreed to both. Lets look at a plan that has a split floor plan in a 1 1/2 story . Master bedroom and utility off kitchen on main floor. Hence laundry shute door. Lets plan a laundry shute from the upstairs bathroom over masterbath/utility wall. All dirty clothes comming to one location beside washer and dryer in a closet to catch them.
Now the second floor would have dormers for people who actually live up there with out searching for a pull down ladder. So, the front would show some class that isnt wasted. AS we walk in the front door ladies and gentle men , past the water fall by the front door , our eyes will fall on beauty to behold . Stans stairs lead our eyes up to a second story landing with his railings comming across to the fire place that towers over two full floors . A fire seems to be burning in the fire place insert , which our eyes then fall to wood floors to match the decor. Up stairs we see that Piffin has used up the remaining attic space with storage. On the balcony floor Dan has in stalled windows for a wonderful veiw of paradize , while he writes his memoirs on Breaktime , looking out over the wonderful veiw as he pauses and thinks in his wonderful office , life is good . ....................................
Author, Tim Mooney
You've almost described my house except for the office in the basement, warmed by the in slab heat..
Excellence is its own reward!
Dan , more on your post .
I realize there are differences in lot , house , and location. Thats a broad statement that is much bigger than it sounds. You mentioned rentals and starter houses that we could do. Dan , I honestly think there are no limits . We can do better than that now . Sure much learning would need to be done to do a mansion. WE have the knowledge here for 5 or 6 thousand square feet. There arent that much differences in that and 2500 ft , just more rooms to build and they may be bigger of course which really simplifies it. If you look at a plan book , break the big houses down into your imediate thinking , its not rocket science. All you need to do is break the parts down in sections , and take all the sections you like . Move on to another plan and take the other section of the house you like , etc. Finally you have all the parts to your new puzzle to work on. . Then make you rough draft . Either take it a plan guy , or an arthitect . Even if its the latter, you have designed and redesigned , and you are ready to hire him by the hour for his time spent. But , design builders can do a lot to help. Just pay for their time . I normally dont go off the blue print any way to the letter. Let someone of Bosses ability put the top on it , and pay for the time. Theres no way an arhchy knows what boss does about roofs . There are foundation engineers too. Depends on who you need to call to find the help you need. Do I have every bit of the ability to design a big one ? No, I dont need it . I dont do the motor work on my rigs either . Some people come here with no idea what they want , and then they cant ask an intelligent question sometimes . They say over and over how much they learn reading on this site . Well, no kidding , we all do! Thats my point for being here , but Im spending more time showing everyone my hand in this post . Thats ok too, I was just hoping for more contributing interrest , and several of you have had an interrest to post , and I thank you all.
Tim Mooney
Lighting .
Lets take some of the small stuff to build some ideas . Im getting pretty old , and I dont see as good as I used to. Half blind with out glasses. Its hard to give up my specticles .
Ive been matching paint for a long time , and did it in a store I owned . I always needed natural light or flouresent. This brings me to the clue , that maybe there should be this light in areas of the house.
My number one place by my own popular vote will be my walk in closet . How do you really match colors of clothing with out one ? The light of a flouresent is indirect of course and doesnt glare back off the objects it hits . User friendly. I installed one in my new closet I built and also brought in a pole light used for finishing drywall. The test was set ! I picked my old and trusty dress coat. [the marry and bury one ] I laid my different pants up too look , because the pants that went with it were mixed in the mess. 60 watt light bulb vs the flouresnt . I could not tell the pants in the first test with the light bulb with my old decrepid eyes , as much as I tried . Before I would have walked out to a window in the bedroom and done the match , except in the case it was dark. [scarry] Now I have three pair of these pants that are almost identical , and I knew this would be the hardest because it always had been . I turned the bulb off and the light over head on . It was still a little hard but , I made it . The big thing about it as I looked at every thing in the closet was it was easier to define color at a glance. I did pick my hardest job to start with , which wouldnt happen but twice or so a year. This is a lot of writing on the difference of a light bulb, but it will give me the best service off all. Thats why we are here .
Now , how about what you think about cool lights and where to put them ?
Tim Mooney
> Ive been matching paint for a long time , and did it in a store I owned . I always needed natural light or flouresent.
These are two very different kinds of light. What matches under one won't necessarily match under the other.
Heated objects, such as incandescent or halogen bulb filaments, coleman mantles, and the surface of the sun, all produce what is called black body radiation. It's a very smooth, uniform distribution of wavelengths covering the whole visible spectrum. Hotter things, like the sun, are tilted towards blue, and cooler ones, like carbon atoms in a candle flame, tilt more towards red.
Gaseous discharge lamps, such as mercury and sodium, are the opposite extreme. They have just a few very strong spikes at very specific wavelengths, like 589.0 and 589.6 nanometers for sodium, IIRC. Flourescents are mercury lamps with a phosphor coating inside. Mercury has a couple strong green spikes, and more in the ultraviolet. The UV part of the mercury spectrum is used to get light from the phosphor. So, you have the somewhat lumpy phosphor curve plus the green mercury spikes. If the coating is made to block some of the green, you get a nicer looking light, but at the cost of some efficiency.
One of my stepdaughters had a little car accident a few years ago, and when she got the car back, she was impressed at what a perfect match the repaired fender was with the rest of the car. That was in bright sunlight. The next time she went to the supermarket at night, under mercury light, it looked like two radically different colors.
-- J.S.
Mr Mooney,
a comment on offices (workplace offices).
infrastructure = overhead = $
people don't like spending money on things that they can't "see" as in why it will actually make them more $
Lots of people (usually in their own private nice offices) can't "see" why happy employees are more productive employees. (did you see the 60 minutes piece on SAS?)
this was not ment as a "downer" comment but a reflection on "office life"
example Bosshogs comment about computers at his workplace in another thread.bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Bobl, thanks for joining this thread . I believe I could show , that through planning , I could save the boss money in less wasted time , providing more production from his happy office staff. There would be useful space for every thing they needed at thier reach. The money that is made, is off a team that has been together for a longntime. I would want to further instill that someone would have to die to get a job there . These are values that would set him apart from the competition . For when one person leaves the office family , a hole of knowledge is opened for the competition to rush through to a touch down.
If my little buddy doesnt mind , this is" exellence is its own reward ".
Now would you please share you information as I didnt see it as I was writing my memoirs on Breaktime .
Tim Mooney
How about a link on Bosses thread ? Have you noticed the number of posts he has ? LOL. Or tell us in your own words please. Please dont ever tell me to look up one of Piffins with out a link![ Smiling really big ]
And now " The Rest Of The Story. "
I was thinking this morning about the change in my writing in this thread . Maybe why the name "Goofy" was affixed to a few peoples memory on here . I have come to the conclusion that this happens when Im in a "zone " , because Im an all out person driven by my ideas that can get a little goofy sometimes over my excitement .
Tim Mooney
> the lady (can't remember her name) who developed penicillin,....
Actually it was a guy, Alexander Fleming. He discovered it quite by accident. Some bread mold formed on the material he was using to feed his bacteria specimines, and it killed them. Which was exactly what he was looking for, something to kill bacteria. This was near the beginning of WWII, IIRC.
-- J.S.
You're correct, John. It was in 1929.
I was thinking of Madamn Marie Curie wo discovered Radium & Polodium.
In 1945 Nobel Prize went to Alexander Fleming, Howard Florey & Ernst Chain for penicillin R&D. Fleming started in 1929 used information from Louis Pasteur(1822-1895) for research.
OK, "G". So now we "owe" them.
Last week's issue of Business Week had an article about "Credit - Small Loan, Big Dream" in which a Mr. Constantino Lazaro, in Mexico, with 4 teen -age kids was making $2 per day back in 1993 as a carpenter. Then he received a "loan" of $25 and bought his first electric saw. With that he now makes furniture and makes about $170 per month.
I've emailed the author to get more info about the loan program from Mexico' City's Compartmos which averages loans of about $270 to these entrepreneurs, to get Mr. Lazaro's address so I can send him some more tools and to find out if any other carpenters there need such help.
Paying back, and I feel better about myself already. Hear that Mr. Pasteur?
Edited 10/16/2002 12:00:46 AM ET by Sonny Lykos
Hey Sonny, post here again when you find out what we can do. I'll bet there's truckload of tools waiting to be adopted. They'd probably like to retire in a Sonny southern climate.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry to be so slow to respond, but I am a lot of time zones behind you guys, and some times I have to work too!! Tim I did not mean to imply that the people of the Breaktime family could not design a super nice home, just that when the house grows large, so does the price, which leads to "custom" features that personalize it to specific owners. A case in point might be Stans "wow" staircase mentioned above. When my father sees stairs, he figures those rooms are probably not worth the trouble, my wife would want two vacuums, I would wonder about moving furniture up and down, parents of small children worry about falls, and my buddy the carpet cleaner would imagine an additional fee. So, for some people the best stairs in the world are still not a selling point. Same thing can apply to almost anything that you and I see as selling features, some people for whatever "goofy reason" won't appreciate them enough to pay extra, and may even shy away from the house because of them.
My belief, for what it is worth, is if you want to sell quickly you must appeal to the masses, and then let them hire somebody too customize what they specifically "need". Or you must go through the process of building homes for people who can afford to pay us to design the perfect custom home of THEIR DREAMS, not ours. We realize that our dream is better of course, but they are writing the checks, and it might be fun to build a rambler with no windows and a laundry on the back porch!!
Dan If this was easy, I'd have to find something else to be frustrated about.
Dan brings up points to remember helping us again not to forget the subject of the post .
Some of the things that have been brought, up points to a style of house. I did a house in my mind for an example of what some of the posters had said above . I simply took the ideas and put them together in one house to show realitive point to a fews post. Plus I only put a few of the ideas in it as I was short for time when it was written. So to expand Dans good thinking , I will evaluate this house .
This house was a savings per sq ft in the first place. A big chunk of money was saved when the plan was chosen using one roof to cover the total footage. The house has a lot of class for one thing for the buck. So lets say for point that we saved 10,000 dollars on a cut up roof with no additional value, other than WOW. Remember that we got paid for floor footage in that roof . Now we take the 15,000 we saved there and place it back on the stairs and banisters which might be a trade off . But the main point to this plan is that we were able to build what the Joneses are building up and down the street and not throwing away money.
The negative approach to this plan is that it is not suited for older people . People with even slight disablities. This plan would be a nono in a retirement addition . Heat and air is harder to regulate, and the residents up stairs are not as comfortable as down.
This is really the reason we shouldnt be focused about plans here , only design . There are many things brought up in the post that really deal with just design . I dont care who you are , what house you live in , there are still principals that apply to all. Things that maximize wasted space. Things that give a total of 100 percent to good sensible planning. I will list a lazy susan in the corner in the kitchen for an example. Closet planning to maximize the space alotted. If you are going to have a fireplace , then think about the wood maitenence and floor care. A hole in the wall off a master closet to the utility , doesnt cost anything . A lot of the ideas mentioned save money, time , and allow us to be comfortable enough to call it "home ". A walk in shower , with a seat , with hand rails that dont look like hospital issue are simply good sense . Seems that making a shower big enough for more than one person at a time is a good idea also! Saves water for one thing ! It brings a closeness of family , helping to get to know one another . Of course Im talking about putting all the kids in at one time with out a shower ring, and having them give the dog a bath at the same time ! Wow , look at the time in the evening that would save . And they might be in bed a little earlier! [wink] Yes , I even had fun writing that , but it has a greater point . A home should be our castle no matter how big it is , where it is , or what style of plan we choose . Lets list this as " home values in a plan " right now . No one can distract from the good sense of that. I loved the idea brought up about the pantry in the utility. In this idea of "old " , this puts the" woman" in most cases with a central "shop" , with her tools in their place , and work activities centralized . The pantry in the storage is also a cheaper alternative than placing , the storage in Adrians cabinets . [Which he has not responded yet . [hint hint ] He was sent an email by me . But anyone in that feild would be appreciated.] I see the kitchen as a central command center , at least in my mind . LOL. We could talk about how to make her more effective in this postion.
This will conclude more posting made by me other than replys to other posters . I think we got off on the wrong foot from the start , although the post is important for all to think about , if you are here to learn . I know I am. I will take full responsebility for not directing a great thread idea correctly. I have learned from the mistake. I would like to enter a new thread named " Home Values In The Plan " , at a later date . I believe the new post could be an exellent one , as I really feel this one had great potential . Ive deleted design from the new thread for good reasons we have learned from this post . Nuff said on that . I will however let this post finish with out me except in reply , and all your comments pertaining to this post may be shared by every one , and if you want the new one ? But then again , I guess this post might continue on , its everyones choice .
Thanks a bunch every body!
Tim Mooney
Tim Mooney
Mr. Mooney, I hope that I was not the cause of the thread getting off track, I thought it was and is a very important field that should be explored by all. If I may, we could try one called value versus style, as it seems to me that frequently they do not seem to go hand inhand the way that they should. Which came first anyway, peoples desires for additional features in the home, or builders / designers wanting to sell more costly projects. Sort of a chicken or egg question, but it seems to me that we may all need some extra thinking about who is driveing the choices being made about houses today. I still proclaim that common sense, isnt.
Dan Truly Sorry for all mistakes
Actually you were the major contributer to making me see that it shouldnt have been about design for several reasons as this is a choice to be made by likes and dislikes. It was hard for me to keep this discussion "tracked ", but that certainly wasnt your fault . You just brought up the thinking that it would change with location , sizes , in design . Design should not ever have been mentioned to get my points across. For my thinking was more about making a home more comfortable and useful, no matter who the person. Im in a master carpenter thread right now that Im haviing trouble making my point with out confusion. I would be afraid to mention design for my point to be made again, which Ive already mentioned. Ive even changed the thought to "Values in your home " , making it personal. I should not have used board members either . I was just having a cute thought at the time . Design is a good topic , or dream home , but that wasnt my thoughts. I was thinking about every day common sense planning for value in mind. I brought up lights , for a home value subject , but I got an answer that told of a car in the parking lot looking different . Which was a good post , it just didnt add to the dicussion subject that I could see. I know that natural light is a better source of light , but that isnt an option at night in a closet. So, I made reference that the light idea I had made better than what most people have in their walk in closets, at a close comparison in price.
Im going to have a little bit more fun with out pulling up andy roonie.
If I had chosen a different subject, it would have got different replys . I guess I could have said I was checking it in , or HiPI, putt putt anyone ? [just kidding ] Or ,
I could have asked a simple direct question on a problem I wanted a direct answer to like , "Who should pay for a broken tool ? " I not only would have gotten over 100 posts on the subject , but I wouldnt have had to even been there . Of course I would have had to take a battering . [ a linching ?]
All kidding aside , posts that are to the direct point with well planned information do a lot better , and I knew it ! LOL
Tim Mooney
This was a good thread.Peace out.
That was back in 2002, wow . Id forgot about it .
Coming from a man like you with feet planted firmly on the ground - er - in the mud - er - in the sand - I have to respect the truth of what you say and keep it in mind without liking what it is you said. I'm fortunate to be doing custom work and not under that gun, I guess. I'm a craftsman first and still learning to be a businessman.
I'm glad to see you back around again, I've learned a lot from you, as have others, about professional management of our businesses. Applying your advice has definitely increased my income while making it all more worthwhile. Folks like you , Linda Case, Walt Steppleworth, and others have helped us all increase our value in our own eyes.
I'd like to buy you a steak dinner next time I'm in Florida..
Excellence is its own reward!
Shoe racks?
Do people actually use them?
I can build spaces for a hundred shoes and still go back in and find them scattered all over the house, including on the stairs. Don't people know that the stair is the place where more accidents happen in the home than any other? That's why codes have so much focus there. Stan can do that detail.
On thing that is changing in the design game is cabinet height. As we get older, we're all getting more aware of universal design so that when we get wheelchair bound (I've got a vision of Tim Taylor in a wheelchair dreaming about souping it up!) we can still reach the toothbrush - if we've got any teeth left. So cab height is worth paying attention to. Even in the kitchen, it is good to have some lower height ones. A person who bakes ####lot needs a lower surface for the muscle work of kneading. Ask a client what they do most often in a kitchen. Knowing how they live and what they spend time at is important in designing a home around them.
Cabs are set at an average height comfortable for the average person. That average person gets shorter in the bathroom tho' - you can tell because the vanity is shorter than the kitchen cabs. They must be in stocking feet in the bathroom and then put high heeled shoes on when they go in the kitchen after a stop at the shoe storage on the stairs... LOL
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Bravo! Very good point. Ive been alerted that the baby boomers are starting to retire and in this day and age they are thinking about these things. I also feel that its time to lower all switch heights , raise receptical heights , provide a walk in shower stall in the master with a sitting bench and attractive arm rails . I didnt mention it before , but I lowered the cabinets over the desk so I could reach the first three shelves with out getting up from the chair . My design of this office is handicap accessable.
Shoes ? That was a little wow feature that was made from two closets that were torn out . I had all these four foot painted 1x12s left over .
One of my points in my feild ; Youve got 15 minutes to sell a house in a buyers mind. After that , its hard to impress them , for they have made the complete walk with a real estate person pushing them. That person has many homes lined up for them to see and they are covering ground , until the buyer says halt !
Tim Mooney
Your last statement points out something that influences designs.
You can design for the wow appeal to sell ####house.
I can design for the continual enjoyment re things that don't always become obvious the first time around but that grow on you as you live there.
The two can be brought together buit more often they are at odds with each other. Kind of a curb appeal vs comfort kind of thing..
Excellence is its own reward!
I wonder what prospero thought I was typing there to censor it. My statement was "...to sell a house" But in using my back buttom I see that I had an extra space between a and house.
I see that it might have looked like an ugly statement..
Excellence is its own reward!
Hmm, now Im feeling like Boss and Stan . You have just entered into a big room that has no boundries. I will make it short as well.
For "my" taste in the world today a woman for one thing should be balanced in several areas , that doesnt change with homes in veiw point.
This has been a problem with selling homes to other people . A realestate person may not be qualified to show a particular home . Its usually in their feild , a bad thing if the owner is even on site . Thats certainly a problem also. When an agent shows homes from a to z in price every day , they tend to run them in and out like a doctors office. Their biggest problem is find a house they even like , plus showing a home they are qualified to buy . Its a very big match up problem . Ive been sitting in the back seat with them a lot of times , when I say , "drive on " . Ive made my decision from the street. Other times , I have walked out of the entry back to the car. Now ;
In a home that has" homey " extras that a sales person has no clue about , I believe a tape should be played , or a hand out is given the potential customer at the door . Other things like warrentees , manuals , anything to justify the home that is in it. I seriously wouldnt mind leaving a copy of Stans bill for 15, 000 for the stairs laying there . Some people have no clue . It should be pointed out that comforts have been built into the home . For if you dont , in fifteen minutes they will be gone . Kinda like preparing a 15 minute speech to the senate.
Tim Mooney
that "15 minute " timeframe must be well known..... it's common around here, (maybe everywhere) you have a truss roof, on top off that you have a dormer,( or eeven a line of them) complete with window,etc. no way is this attic gonna get finished, I'm looking for a stairway to the third floor, and there's this pulldown stair I recognize, (ohh, NOW I get it!).
I'm thinking, at the curb, "look, honey, it's got an attic room! WE'LL TAKE IT!"... only to find out later, after buying, the truth. HEHEHE.listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
LOL! Ive also seen this . Trickery at a high level. No way to run heat and air in several Ive seen . Isnt it grand to a home owner or sales rep that has no clue ? NOT!
Tim Mooney
Hey Tim.
I found your message over on the Master Carpenter post. I appreciate the invitation to respond here, however, I stay as far away from design work as possible. When asked for my opinion on design, I usually shy away. I don't know why, I guess it's just not my area.
When pressed, I can usually tell a client what I have seen other architects do in similar situations. That avenue seems to work. I can lead a client away from what I feel is a very bad design choice, but it's not my house. If you think the panel doors should be hung upside down, who am I to tell you different? There are those who design and those that build. I am one that builds.
Thanks anyway,
Ed. Williams
You can offer the best craftsmanship that is available and still own a "business." Notice the difference between a Chevy, a Buick, a Cadillac, a Mercedes, Jaguar, and then there is the Bentley.
Pick your market, sell the hell out of what your name represents to that market, and enjoy the walk to the bank each week. You earned it. But never, ever, sell your Mercedes quality AND service, at the Buick's price. In other words, don't "buy" their price. Sell "your's." Value based pricing. Just find those who recognize the "value" in your name. And don't waste time doing it. Remember, each year too many of us spend 1600 to 1800 HOURS giving our value away at a 60% - 80% discount - and it's still not appreciated, or recognized. Discounts are for "SALES". I don't have SALES.
You're on the right track.
Sonny; What determines the rate at which you would charge to sell the "Bentley" if you were making a decent living selling Buicks? Or to put it into construction terms, if you were working on a mansion for Bill Gates, and he wanted a solid gold doorknob with titanium latch, and it was as easy as a standard knob to put in, do you charge more just because of who he is? or because it was a 5,000 thousand dollar knob. Just yesterday you had installed a standard knob, for your regular rate and made, 250? But now you can probably charge 5 or 10 times as much and nobody cares, what do we do now?
On the design story of this thread, I think that site location should be given more consideration. How often are homes built the way they were drawn, without looking at the views, sunlight paths, street traffic .... I grew up in a house that was just high enough above the road, that head lights shown in the master bedroom, and living room everytime a car came up the road. Showed a house for sale once that had pretty good view, but no windows on that side of the house!
Dan Common sense isn't any more!
I'll chase that rabbit.
My plumber found out that you absolutely have to charge more. He's had customers buy fancy expensive fixtures in Eruope, bring them home in luggage(I don't know if they were gold and jewel encrusted or not but they were expensive) and ask him to install them. Then when they leaked, his insurance was called on the replace the damaged portions of the house. The whole sordid story involved lawyers and days of his time over a $150 service job.
So if this showpiece entry set for Mr Gates fails to keep people out, you might be sued if you installed it. If you do that level of work for that size customer, you need to up your insurance and practices, and increase your rates accordingly. The wealthy expect more and believe me, they get it, one way or the other. So anticipate and charge in advancce.
We sometimes call it the celebrity factor. You get the call to come replace the knob and say you'll be there first thing in the AM. Your day starts at eight so that's when you show up. The gatekeeper says that Mr McCelebrity is still in bed and doesn't want the noise of workmen, could you come back later?
You've got some other errand to run so sure, say 10AM?
At ten the gatekeeper tells you that you need to park in the service area around back. Turns out that this parking is 1/4 mile away from the planned work, so with drop clothe and all you've got a couple trips to get set up. You start to get nervous because this armed bodygaurd type is looking over your shoulder all the time so you put a tiny little scratch in the door surface with your screwdriver, run for the touch up kit to make it disappear. While you are gone to the truck, his spoiled dog decides to "play" with your tools and dropclothe. Of course, the bodygaurd does nothing to stop the dog.
You finally finish, trying to simulate a smile on your face (it's hard since you are an hour or so late for lunch) as the celebrity comes by and admires the look of the new door handle, saying nothing about your quality of work, only the piece itself.
You leave a bill, or send it later to the adress they provide, and wait up to three months to get paid.
All for a one hour job, your day has been ruined and you get to tell your grandchildren that you once installed a twenty thousand dollar entryset for Mr McCelebrity.
Then they complain that you charged too much.
They aren't all that way but there is a touch of that with many of them and 15% of that upper crust are that bad or worse..
Excellence is its own reward!
Dan, Piffin said it well, and is how I price jobs using a VPS - Variable Pricing Schedule.
1. Price is partially determined by the cost of what's being installed. I charge more for installing expensive cabinets then cheaper ones. If I screw one door or drawer front up I just bought it. RISK - the same reason why a diamond cutter charges more to cut a flawless 4 caret diamond than to cut a flawed 1 caret.
2. Access. I do a lot of work in condos and high rise condos. It can take me up to almost an hour just to get my tools, material and myself to the actual area. One hour for a 1/2 hour job. Charged at 1.5 hours PLUS a trip charge of $45, just like appliance repair men charge.
3. Risk of Liability also is a factor.
As for the VPS, say I get a job to replace a 2' x 2' section of damaged drywall from a leaking toilet seal in the condo above. And the ceiling is skip troweled texture or popcorn. As you know, to apply the popcorn or texture professionally as a repair to blend with the surrounding takes a talent. So for that 1/2 hour part of the job, I'd charge a rate of about $125 per hour, and my regular rate of $85 per hour for the drywall replacement and taping. That $85 per our is also charged for obtaining the material to be used.
About that Buick verses the Bentley. I can provide both types of products and both types of service(s) desired, so I charge accordingly. BTW, I no longer feel guilty charging to make a service call and find out that the only problem is that a breaker was tripped. See, I solved their problem and it still took experience and time, so they get charged, unless it's a regular customer. Then it's free, if it's close to me.
Actually it's not free since I include 1% in my overhead (PR/Marketing line item) to do an occasional freebie like that once in a while. This year I'll do about $300K in sales so that 1% is $3000. But to that customer, I've just resolidified his/her already "perception" that Sonny is a great guy. That's transfers into no quibbling over my past or future job's prices for that person, plus they brag about me to their friends. That transfers into that customer being a "free" part-time sales person for my business.
Good story Piffin . Im sure we can all relate to the customers that thought they were important . When this happens it seems to be a jealous issue comming from the owner , and our needs are not considered .
I know that you and I are interrsested in design . I think we have two different points of interrest , but I was hoping for more from other readers . I want to build or remodel the perfect home , for my own selfish needs for money and comfort . You are interrested in making a living I think off of design. Two great virtues of interrest that are honorable.
So readers every where , while you sip your drink in comfort of your home , let me tell every one whats really on my mind . Then we might have something to discuss . [I hope ] This will be my best shot off the cuff ;
I want to come up with designs that work for all people involved. I love nifty ideas that women have patted my back over, and I was so proud of dreaming up. I take joy and now I have to quote another; " exellence is its own reward " . Its a very good feeling I might add when a plan come to gether ! Here are some of my ideas that would portray that feeling in my home ;
Lots with a view are many times on the side of a hill. At least unlevel , after all the choice lots are usualluy already built on . I want to pour money at useful things that have WOW, for my own selfish enjoyment . I think that a deck on the back should also serve as a carport , or a covered patio underneath, providing as much as three bangs for the buck. [Awsome Idea I know , please wait for the standing appluase! ][ joke ] The useful features for this is overwhelming . Entertainiing , if you were not thinking. Also to provide shade to the walk out basement with a southern slope , if this is an option with where you live. There could be about 10 bangs with this idea in my thinking.
The large covered porch seems to be leaving the plans . This could add the cut up design to the roof, instead of the fake windows in dormers at no use to me. I will add but throwing money in a hole for others to think WOW. I dont think throwing money in a hole has a WOW feature unless it can be enjoyed by all. I spent 100 dollars on a cat and no one even likes him. He doesnt even enjoy his own company, other wise he wouldnt bitch all the time .
Wasted space in huge open areas .
Is this provided for useful living area , or to impress the lookers ? I understand that big high ceilings are the wanted thing in new construction . I can see if the ceiling was "dressed " with trims , and neat indirect lighting that it could add enjoyment . But honestly if its just a ceiling I have to heat and cool , the only joy I see is watching a parakeet fly. If Im going to build one , I want it to have a purpose of beauty for all to enjoy as a painting on a wall that is excetional. Then , it would have good purpose .
Wood heat .
I know that for some of you this is not a locational option. But for your enjoyment of lauhfing at the Goofy ones ideas, let me mention it .
A love is established for the feeling for setting around a fire . Being able to warm your back side , laying in front of it and watching it snow out side is one of my joys . It gathers closeness for all in the room , and the feeling of home . It truely is a feeling of having a friend there with you , because there is always a loss in your heart when the wood is gone before the season is over . I cant really explain the loss , except that its close to a friend moving away that you have enjoyed so much. With that said ; Useful thinking needs to go to play here to be able to enjoy one of lifes natural wonders. A covered area to store wood such as a garage with an area designed to hold a couple of ricks. A wood box , that opens beside the fire place . This is my best thought for keeping it handy , dry, and being able to restore either the box, or the stove with wood in house shoes. Now I mentioned stove . The usefulness of a fireplace alone is looks alone , and no one can keep wood in one . So , why not an insert , or just a stove in the planning. A plan that has the above features .
Thats all for now , as Im late for work , lol.
Tim Mooney
My 2 cents. Put the garage doors on the gable end, if there is one. Covered entry, goes along with your porch issue.One of my biggest pet peeves, in modern design, is a big, cut up roof on a home with no usable space in it. Just a maze of truss webs. Guess that's why I like 1 1/2 story construction. Main floor laundry areas are a necessity. Have more, but have to go.
Brudoggie
Tim I can't really add anything here. I will get Lars to give his two cents soon. By the way I LOVE seeing Sonny here. I saw him over at the "other site", but I just don't go there as often.
Tim here is a ladies thought or thoughts....okay the shower has to have the little ledge made just for her to shave her legs!
Next I think a waterfall outside near the patio area or pond is a must. Don't you think more people are looking for this. Now not a swimming pool, but rushing water etc. It helps cut down on traffic noise etc.
Personally I love the Not So Big House. Gives you great ideas on how to use your space. We are getting ready to put a staircase in the living room up to the attic. In the staircase we are going to use it as a entertainment center. That is another reason I was talking about tv's here recently. The big screens aren't for us it takes up too much space. Also I like the idea of using your space wisely in the kitchen. Little tricks here can help you use your space more wisely.
Another thing...as you all know use to be in the physical therapy field. I have finally gotten Lars into helping his clients think ahead. What I mean is...he builds for a lot of baby boomers. He has talked over with them plans that make things easier if they need handicap type things. Example the shower...he has recommended the shower be set up where it is easy for wheelchair access etc. Trust me there are ways to make it NOT look handicap. Clients don't want their homes looking like a hospital. On the other hand they love what you can do to help them think ahead. Wider doors etc. Do you see what I am getting at. Sorry I got off topic here. Just some thoughts.
Have a great day!Tamara
"Tim I can't really add anything here."
You just did ! Good job!
"Sorry I got off topic here."
You were exactly on target , like looking through a scope . You would be dangerous with a gun . Very good post .
More to you later , lunch is over .
Tim Mooney
Thanks, for the kind words. Tell Lars to give you a big hug from me. Not too big, since I'm only 118 pounds. That's why I'm called a "small" contractor (-:
About that "handicap" stuff. You might even suggest to Lars to become a CAPS remodeler. My son Tom just became one of the first 5 in Florida. If I remember correctly, it stands for Certified Aging in Place Specialist. You can check with your local association or at NAHB to get the particulars. Tom has contracts on two remodels since becoming certified and got a higher than normal margin because of it.
Scroll down about half way.
http://www.nahb.com/builders/remodelors_council_for_builders.htm
Tim, some thoughts on your 'hill' locations. I live on a hilltop, not too high. There are other hills around which I have views of, which I have cut out with landscaping (Mangoes, a Navel Orange tree, a poor man's orchid tree, Man, I love the Caribbean!), as I do not want to look at other's houses, and have increased privacy around my pool/jacuzzi area. However, as mine is a single story house, in this same area, I intend to build a screened-in gazebo for those wanting shade while poolside. I am mulling over the design as we speak, cuz here's what I want: a Lookout. This would be the top of my gazebo, with accomidating stairs and handrails + handrails around the entire lookout. These will also disguise the fact that I will now have a flat roof next to hip and valley main house roof. Here's my thought on your carport dug into the hillside: Pour that sucker, with a very slight pitch for rain dump, and create your own lookout. It's rare when most owners and their guests get up onto their own roofs to really see their views from there, and it's one of the things that I cherish about construction, getting the full view that others miss (at least while roofing, hanging fascia, etc...). With snow loads in most areas of the U.S., it would have to be a decent thickness, perhaps with more steel than normal, but what a 'Wow' for those who enjoy that sort of thing. Have Stan Foster come visit and whip up some of those special 'Wow' stairs to complete this project! Your thoughts?
"If left is wrong, then right is the only thing left, right?"
You are needing information on a heavy snow load , with a flat deck roof. The great thing about Breaktime is there are people here that cut their teeth on that question . Framers in the northern country . I usually dont get any here at all. Post your question , they will come . I havent got any thing worked out but a deck either . I checked early in the summerand the guys came up with a metal roof deck that was sure high in price. But that belongs in your new post queston also. I will be there trying to learn more about that my self. My application here would just be a normal deck provideing shade. As to this posts veiw about the design, would be highly benificial to have all the uses I decribed . Plus something you want and will use in the first place . I will be at your new post .
Tim Mooney
Tim, I was just posting you a design idea for your idea. I have zero snow loads, but have lots of ideas of my steel layout if I did. I have poured lots of flat roof slabs, I have one on my generator house, which I beefed up considerably from the plans the 'architect' drew up for me. It's a common thing in the islands, but no snow loads. Just thinkin' out loud, buddy.
"If left is wrong, then right is the only thing left, right?"
Thanks Nick , I just didnt want to get out of my area . These guys can be tough . They let me dabble in my area . Im very humble in their territory !LOL!
Tim Mooney
"Dan Common sense isn't any more!"
Dan, thanks for your thought . Thats why we are here. I never meant for this to be a pulpit for me , but I like to respond to thoughts. Ive looked at a passell of houses , also Ive studied books of plans , and I couldnt agree with your thoughts more. Its already been said that arhcitects need to walk out side more often . I think we as a group have more knowledge about home layout , but only a few have responded. Or am I wrong in my thinking, that we have blinders on , not noticeing the homes we are in every day? Im thinking that I might have done something wrong in this thread . Cant believe the low response , for such an important subject . I guess thats my opinion through my eyes , doesnt have to be anyone elses. Now on with your thought .
I have lived in a great number of houses . This has been going on since I was a kid through my life til now. Some of them have been just houses , while others have been homes . There is a great deal of difference in how a home acts as a host while you are in it . Some times I wonder if the mags just put the flash in the plan for the wow feature. To make something that doesnt seem "reachable " to so many women , causing them to drool over the mags. Im a remodeler that has had to remedy some of these flaws in plans . Hell, we have both made our living off the mistakes . I made a statement above about predecisions to any project or indeaver to be studied before the jump. Traffic from streets , neighbors, noises, interruptions by direction should always be studied before construction. A natural light on things like a TV are pretty simple no nos. But over and over its done in repitition. Thanks for your thoughts Dan .
Tim Mooney
Makes me wonder what Piffin said here to get the prospero censor to kick in like that?...
A person who bakes ####lot needs a lower surface for the muscle work of kneading.Peace out.
ghay ####
wow,, i just added a space and the letter aye..and it did that!
try it..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Edited 1/6/2008 7:16 pm ET by Sphere
You mean the letter A can get censored all by itself?a lot
ghay ####
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ain't that sumpin'?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
YOU broke it...I'm tellin.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
A person who bakes a lot...since the s key is sidling up to the a key in almost a full body contact dance, I guess my sloppy typing days must have made that come out with one A and two S's to get the donkey's cousin censored. If I had meant to say it, I would have just typed azz
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Tim:
Your idea is and was a good one...
Regards,
Rework
Flight 101 Design Theories is now loading at gate General Discussion .[ 30 posts in 16 hours , most at night . This flight will fly!] Your seat belt is located here #. Its possible there might be turbulence on this flight, but none is expected . Oxygen if you need it is here ^. We expect this flight to be a loaded flight , so we have called in extra help. Pi will be tending bar . Lisa , Roucromom , and Thedora will be your flight attendants to make you comfortable as possible on such a long flight . Exit doors are located on your right >, and one on your left <. Its not recommended you leave after take off ! We will be leaving for the taxi way shortly as we are still expecting passengers for boarding. We hope you enjoy your flight , and thank you for flying with Breaktime !
Tim Mooney
Look out the windows at the ________ for a little WOW effect while we fly over, folks!
On that issue of adding WOW to a house. Most people I know who own something special report that they bought it for one of three reasons, a fireplace, a staircase, or a view. The kitchen can help cement the deal but isn't often the deciding factor, altho a bad one can drive buyers away..
Excellence is its own reward!
We may have touched on why builders in the big burbs do a sloppy exterior package, with cheap roofing and one coat of paint on cheap wood. I remember in '76 trying to do some cedars in Texas in a new subdivision. They weren't interested in good work so I left quick. #3 shingles over 15#felt. The other roofers were joking about job security - knew they'd be back within 5-6 years to replace them.
So a design consideration for a quality thread like this is specing materials and methods, even on the most basic house..
Excellence is its own reward!
I think thats the best you have ever made me feel . I hope you are correct , because that has been my homework results also.
There are however many things that can cement a deal if they are the right things to add . Im trying to put in a mixed bag of tricks in a house already built , but actually Im trying to pull every one I can learn also. Then , if Im successfull , I own a lot over looking the Arkansas River to take these notes to. Thanks for your help.
I have made this statement before ; In any venture you should choose to take on , the predecisions to the decision are the most important factors to success. Once youve made your leap, you have sold your butt.
Thats part of why we are gathered here to day to issue parachutes .
Thanks for being here ,
Tim Mooney
Tim, I stayed away from this forum originally, as you were specific about trusses, and my experience there is ordering the things, then fixing them when they come. I see now that your board meeting has stretched it's way into concrete, which is something I have to live in, work with, and deal with every day. As far as experience, I've gone fron one extreme to the other in my chosen field (brain surgery/rocket science). Born and raised in log cabin land, - Alaska, that is where I cut my teeth in construction, I have lived now for 12 years in the Caribbean, which is almost all concrete houses with hip roofs and minimal eves - hurricanes, you know. My own house is 8" concrete block, with 3"x8" rafters poured into the bond beam on 4' centers (this is an older house, FEMA and Insurance Co's now required spans of no more than 32" OC), 3/12 pitch hip roof with many gables (all hip & valley). We catch all rainwater and that is stored in a below ground cistern for all the house water. This is a pretty standard residence for this neck of the woods. I really enjoy the sturdyness of my place, but get a little tired of having to break out the hammerdrill for the smallest picture to be hung. My exterior is 'splatterdashed' textured stucco, and I LOVE it! Every five years I pressure wash the whole thing, prior to painting, and can cover in one coat, even with a new color! Here is one draw back which I had to deal with recently - all plumbing was poured into the surface slab, and run up inside the walls, and all done in copper. Had a family emergency a couple years back, and got a call from the housesitter while I was gone, saying my cistern was empty. Was full when I left, and it's 50,000+ gallons! Turned out to be a leak in the walls, just outside the kitchen. Break out the jackhammer! My plumber got that all squared away (he has a liscence!), and had a nice, 3'x4' hole in my exterior concrete wall. Figuring that I may need to access this area again, I tapconned some P/T blocks inside the wall, and cut a piece of Wonderboard to a close fit, ran 1/8" galvanized cable around the edge, leaving two knots visible to me only, next to asphalt drive at the base, plastered and re-textured with my hoppergun. Now, if I need to access this area, I'll locate the knots, and chip out where they lead me, to open the whole area in ten minutes. My plumber came up for his check two days after he'd fixed the leak, and couldn't believe it! Already textured, primed, painted, asphalt fixed, like it never happened! he actually looked at the wrong area of wall to begin with, and that's just how I like it. I don't know if these are the kinds of design stories you're looking for, but I'd bet you're 'board'!
"If left is wrong, then right is the only thing left, right?"
Nick , I would welcome that post anywhere ! I had no idea what carribean houses were like .
Tim Mooney
N,
It's different perspectives like that can get the creative juices flowing. A step outside the box to turn the light on.
I've worked with two archys from southerly islands here. They focused also on things like wide open water-rresistant kitchen shelves for easy cleaning (my impression is that you could easily bring the garden hose in to spray them down) and for keeping an eye out for snakes, insects and such. No clutter spaces..
Excellence is its own reward!
Tim, don't get me wrong. I prefer to do the caliber of work I prefer and get paid for that caliber of work. My original comments were mainly about spec building and spec remodels.
Fortunately, I learned early that my #1 priority in business was to create my "Brand" name - what it represented, and allowed me to get the prices I demanded. So, my small remodels are those that fit "my" bill, and by those who will pay for it. Ditto for the condo associations I work for. I no longer do work for those who want only the "flash" but those who also want things done correctly, including the flash stuff.
Which brings me to another point. There is a difference between "cost based pricing" and "value based" pricing. My prices are based upon "value based pricing." Only wish I had engineered my business to operate on that basis at the onset, not 10-15 years later. Not that my work wasn't valued based. I just wasn't changing for it. I was basing my prices on cost based pricing - a loser.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can do both - first class work and using the proper materials, but will only do so if I get paid for it. On the other hand, spec remodeling and it's emphasis on the "flash" is something I'm also capable of doing.
Now that I think about it, it still comes down to money, so you were correct in your original assumption of my post being about money. Yep, I'm no longer a schmuck! I absolutely love being a businessman instead of a tradesman.
About giving more than what's expected. If any one here owned a restaurant instead of a contracting business, would they give garnishes, dessert and coffee for free just because in "their perception" they were mandated when serving a nice dinner? If so, they would still be in that 85% plus business failure rate. It really doensn't matter what industry we're in. Operate it without considering the financials of virtually every business aspect and you go broke. Yep, it is all about money - always. "Business" is synonymous with the word "money", but then, as an investor, you already knew that.
Again, thanks for letting me put in my nickels worth.
Sonny, I recently got a factoid that shocked me to pieces. The average American, for each dollar spent in a restaurant, is getting 27 cents worth of food. Amazing! Think I'll eat in, tonight...
As far as Business vs. Craftsmanship, I'm still learning, but I find that when I have to 'eat' my work time, against the work that I do, that I can still live with myself with, I've got to figure in 'word of mouth' future work. That's the time to adjust my own dollar scales, and I do.
"If left is wrong, then right is the only thing left, right?"