Client gagged when she saw the price for the Mouser cabinets…about $19k delivered & installed for 21 lf base and 18 lf uppers with glass upper doors, and an island, but no counters…but they did look nice 🙂 So she suggeste that maybe I should build them on site. Hooo-kay…we can do that…I think. I have built some furniture (beds, armoires, desks etc) so I can probably handle it, but I would like a good book. Which one is best?
Do it right, or do it twice.
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Replies
have u asked in knots
or here http://65.18.210.137//ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=
or at quittin time?
bobl Volo Non Voleo
The link was interesting, but had nothing. I have posted at Knotheads.Do it right, or do it twice.
Go to the FHB archives and index.
About 2 years ago they had a interesting article on a quick way to do site buit cabinets.
Bill, I think I remember that. Didn't he build the boxes, hang the doors, then apply the face frames ? Made it sound fairly easy.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I concur with all the referances so given to you. The only other one I would mention is Danny Proulx site and forum as well as his books http://www.cabinetmaker.com (I think) He also shows up occasionally at http://www.woodworking.org on tuesday nites at the chat room. The site says wensday nite chat but tuesday is for the canadians, nice guys hope this helps.
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
Something like. Don't remember the details, but it did seem like a simple system for certain styles of cabinets.
With respect, i don't think much of any of the books mentioned; I don't think much of any of Tolpins or Proulx's books, really, though I haven't seen Proulx's latest. The best book for cabinetmaking I've seen is a college level text (I use it) called Modern Cabinetmaking by Umstaddt. Fine Woodworking has at least one new book on cabinetmaking/woodworking that looks good too; I think Andy Rae is the author, but I've only scanned it.
As far as being lucky, it's only a paint finish.....a paint finish from most good cabinetmakers is more expensive, and more demanding, than a clearcoat. Bear that in mind.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
been awhile since i saw one of your posts, glad to see it
hope you've been reading here
bobl Volo Non Voleo
Adrian, are you still E-cabinetmaking? Maybe you could E- down and give him some pointers?
Joe H
I guess my comment on the paint finish aspect was that nail holes and oops could be filled and painted over, and I would not have to worry about stain blotching.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Try "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" by Jim Tolpin. Cabinets are just plain expensive, though, any way you do them.
Jon
Hmmnn,.."Client gagged when she saw the price for the Mouser cabinets.......So she suggeste that maybe I should build them on site."
Why would be building cabinets "onsite" be any cheaper?
What makes people think that? Isn't she really just suggesting "can't YOU just build something cheaper?"
As for books that might be of help there are a couple of Taunton ones in my library that you may want to go to a bookstore and look through:
The "at home" or "home workshop" aspect of the latter two is what makes me associate them with possibly being worth while for site built cabinet making consideration. Jim Tolpin's book is just a good all around basic cabinet making book. There are also other good more advanced cabinet making books too. It's just a little hard to guage just what you need and are looking for.
I would certainly think twice about trying to deliver a quality site-built cabinet project for cheaper (?) on you first go at it. If you don't have all the processes and organization down that's real long shot don't you think? It one thing to take an established shop process and to modify and export it for a on-site project and it a wholly different thing to work it out on site correctly and efficiently ($$$) for the first time.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Jerrald (and others) thanks for the info. As to the cost...I also visited with a local shop that does production and custom cabinets, and their price for custom was about half. I am very tempted to go with the local shop, but what the hey, maybe it's a good time to build my own. There always has to be a first time, and if I try to find time to build some for my garage or shop as a prototype, it will never happen. No offense to cabinet makers, but with some research and planning and attention to detail and not getting rushed, it can't be that hard...it's just building high tolerance boxes. Good news is that she wants a painted finish. Boy, I hope I'm not going to regret this (the above statements, or the project).
Do it right, or do it twice.
A couple of other sources occurred to me as I watched the tail end of the Yankee game. Danny Proulx's books as RonT just mentioned (my favorite being Building Cabinet Doors & Drawers) and there is another book I like by Tolpin called Working at Woodworking: How to Organize Your Shop and Your Business which I like because it's about organization more than than actual cabinet making.
(Yankees won)
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Learning on the job is not always the best way. It's certainly effective but could be an expensive lesson. Our cabinets are more expensive than shop built, time we get them painted!
If I got you figured right, you want to be a contractor. That doesn't mean doing it all yourself, it means delegating, guiding and inspecting..
Excellence is its own reward!
On the other hand.......................
Learning on the job is exactly what we do to extend our skills and grow as craftsmen. I certainly have never had the luxury of learning on my own time, and at times I have pushed my skills to the limit to pull off whatever it is that I have promised a customer. You may make less because of the extra time and inevitable losses due to mistakes, but it can pay off in the long run.
It has to be done with eyes wide open. A good comprimise if one has never built doors before, is to build the entire cabinet, except the doors. Order the doors from a shop that specializes in that kind of work.Careful planning and foresight can result in beautiful cabinets, built by someone with moderate cabinetry skills.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Edited 7/2/2003 6:37:47 PM ET by Svenny
It's a matter of doing what you want to do and love doing. That's the beauty of self employment.
I've done it too and continue to do it but I see Elcid taking on a lot of work to manage. You can't manage and be a craftsman both at the same time. One or the other will suffer. One of the rules for growing a business and making money at it is that you never do anything yourself that you can get someone else to do for you, especialy when they speciallize in doing it and you can make a buck off their job.
Do it all yourself and burrnout sets in and your income is limited by the hours in the day.
So if Elcid wants the joy of woodworking, regardless of the cost, he should pursue the joy.
But if he wants to make money managing jobs and building a business to provide for his family, he should focus on that.
Somewhere in between is the holy grail that we are all looking for. I won't spoil the taste of his manna by criticizing whichever way he chooses to lean..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff and Svenny (is that Irish?)...you both are right. Svenny read my mind on the cabinets, and Piff hit on some deep thinking that I do almost daily...when do I start converting from labor to management? Tough call.Do it right, or do it twice.
http://www.josephfusco.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php
I consider Joe one of the premier cabinet guys here. And he attracts good cabinet guys to his forum. Definatly mosey over and pick his brain.
FWIW: Any kind of cabinets you do is expensive.
Who Dares Wins.
Edited 6/30/2003 9:18:55 PM ET by Gunner
No disrespect intended, but leave cabinet making to peoplle who do it for a living. If you do want to learn, try doing it in your off time. Expanding the learning process on a homeowner's job is one thing, but learning a new craft on a job will probably open a new can of worms, like time delays, mistakes, irrate owners,etc.
I have seen this done before and usually it turns out not too well. Also,I have also seen guys do a pretty good job, but most wind up being slock jobs. Too many things to learn in one setting. But hey, You might be the right person ready for the learning curve. Best of luck(skill) for you future endevor.
You might be the right person ready for the learning curve. That's a 50-50 chance. I have a couple of days to sleep on it, so my decision could very well change. I did find Cary's book "Build Your Own..." at Hamilton Books and ordered it, if not for this job then for the library.
I used to think I could do most anything, but the older (wiser?) I get, the more I farm out to full-time craftsmen. Been there, done that, now let the other guy do it in half the time with lots less effort on my part...just write the check.
Do it right, or do it twice.
It pains me to say so, because I am the sort of stubborn person that can do anything, dangit. Usually I can figure out how to do a passible job, of most things, but the first go is never quick, cheap, or first class. I should also admit, that I am in the planning stages of building vanities for our master bath, and then on to the kitchen cabinets if the vanities are acceptable. But if I was charging my normal hourly rate, good factory cabinets would probably be cheaper, the quality will have to be determined. Good luck either way, but if you have a stellar reputatuion, do want to risk it in order to save the client some money, maybe? Your call.
Dan
price it out first....
I can build a darn fine cabinet if I I say so myself....
But wouldn't think of doing so for a full kitchen.
If you price it out realistically....I'd bet you'll find most any full time shop can do it for the saem...if not cheaper......
and most cabinet distributor can get the boxes to ya for way cheaper than you could hope for.
And this doesn't take into account that both of those sources should be able to provide a much better finish that you'll ever get out of your garage.
I'd say find another cab dealer. Are you getting a discount? How much off list was that price?
And Mouser isn't the cheapest line out there....and I've found most customers don't "need" the most expensive.
Unless I'm building a "custom" built-in to fill some odd or unusual space......and the customer's realistic about the project...I can't build cheaper than I can buy and install.....unless I work for min wage.
add it up and divide it out.....What's their budget anyways......Is it realistic for a full kitchen remodel?
Jeff
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
The shop where we (the customer & I) saw the Mouser cabs carries one other line, which they describe as about 20% higher in cost. No idea if the quoted price included any discount. They have the budget for it and can afford the pricey cabs, but they have enough sense to question if they really need that level. Fortunately it wasn't my idea. The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning toward not building them.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Yeah, and did the quote include installation. I know of some firms that install from $15-$75 per box. Price usually depends on the cost of the boxes. It can really add up, quick.
So...help me here if I got this wrong...
But.....you are quoting a new kitchen for some customers.....
And U are going to do the bulk of the work......as in.....install what ever cab's they decide on, Right?
Actually that only matters slightly....
Even if U are subbing the install to the cab place....you're still the GC..so to speak.
So.....U should get a trade discount.
The place that's known me since I was about 8 yrs old.....riding shotgun with my Dad...gives me a really good discount. E-Mail me and I'll let let ya in on it...don't wanna give out all my trade secrets here for the diy'ers....
They recently changed stocked lines....went from Wellborn to Legend....
Still carried Wellborn...but didn't have a new book on hand....sounded like they were phasing them out...
So I found another Wellborn dealer. Told them my customer wanted the Wellborns....and I could get X% discounted from list at my old dealer..then explained why I was there. Told the guy I liked Wellborn...and wanted to keep recommending them......but that long ago earned discount was real important.
Didn't expect him to m,atch it..as I was a new customer....and I said up front that I'm not a high volume cab installer......he matched it anyways. Said every solid new customer was worth it.
I even confused him when I asked for the new price book.....as I'd design and price it all out.....then run the customer thru his design program after we get what we think is the final design and I'm positive they'll buy thru him and me....as to not waste his time.
Even if yer gonna do 1 nice kitchen a year......make a contact. It's well worth the leg time.
I never bring the customer with me the first time around....then I call to set up the apt and they'll ask how I want it priced. Sometimes they give no price...sometimes they give list. I like to get list quoted then tell the customer what I can discount it to in my bid.
Dad knew his numbers so well he'd usually just qoute a whole kitchen/lam counters including install at the cab list price.
Said install was included.
I haven't priced any that way....but I bet I could still make it work.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
You are right there. Markup on factory units allows for forty percent off to volumn buyers and sixty to jobbers. Occasional contractor can and should expect 15 - 25 % off list..
Excellence is its own reward!
It's a major remodel of a smallish house, including all new kitchen, everything except the plumbing rough-in. Customer found a boutique kitchen design center that had the cabs and tile and stuff that she liked (she has no idea about brands, just looks), so I went in with a drawing of the kichen and asked them to price it up. Then I went back in with the customer so she could talk with the designer about the layout and cost. This particular price includes design time, manufacturing, delivery and installation. And bad coffee in little bitty china cups.
Do it right, or do it twice.
You might check out this site:
http://www.cabparts.com/
Sort of combines the two approaches.
The issue of Fine Homebuilding is November 1999. I saved it out because I want to try it. The system looks great! If you can't find a copy, send me your address and I will try to get you a copy.
[email protected]
I have it...thx anyway.Do it right, or do it twice.
I think that article is also available in Taunton's Renovating a Kitchen, in case someone else is interested in it.
Don
I took a cabinetmaking class from Mark Adams. He ran a big shop in Indiana for years and now has a woodworking school. He sells a video detailing the system he uses.
Face frame first is the way everyone I know of in OKlahoma builds face frame cabinets. Yet I have not seen any other published material describing the process.
Building the face frame first is much easier and accurate than building a box and then nailing on the face frame. In a nutshell you build the face frame and dado the stiles and the vertical mullions to accept the cabinet sides and vertical partitions. You then take direct measurements off of the face frame for cutting the plywood parts. The frame is then laid on top of the cabinet sides to mark the position of the dados that hold the horizontal partitions in place.
The frame is laid face down. All the parts slide into their dados with glue and then are nailed.
It might sound more complicated but it really is'nt. I have tried other ways and have allways gone back to the way that Mark Adams teaches and I learned from a custom cabinet shop in Tulsa.
ELCID72,
The issues of taking on an endeavor you’ve not done are self evident. I would simply ask if you wanted to make money on the endeavor, save the client money on the endeavor or acquire a new skill.
If your objective is to “save” the customer money, would in all likelihood be folly. Considering that you have no real skill in making cabinets to begin with and most of the time spent making them would be on the bell curve no matter whose book/s you read.
If your objective is learning a new skill/craft then it stands to reason that this job is not ideal because the client questions the quality to price aspect. If you find a client that wants a fine quality job and is willing to pay for it, that’s the job you take. You do so because you will have both the money and time to produce a high quality product.
Let’s face it, building boxes making doors and draws is not brain surgery. You can do most of that with very few “sharp” tools. The surgery comes into play when you need to bring all the components together to make the entire project work.
Good luck on your endeavor ;-)
As you probably have read by now there are as many ways to build cabs and options to go about figureing this situation out.
I would go to a cabinet maker who does quality work a get him to build them. You'll probably get a decent price for the cabs that will make the HO happy. But If your really interested in building cabs or learning how to then you can take the time to learn the skill so the next time you face this sort of situation you can not only build the cabs but give accurate bids based on the time and materials you'll need for the job.
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
Given that...
if'n I were U....
I'd find another Mouser dealer.....and ask what contractors discount they'll give ya...
and/or .......shop other cab dealers letting them know U want a Mouser knock-off.
I'd bet you can find something very similar to what the customers fell in love with somewhere out there. Most cab web sites have great pics of their lines/options.
Remember.....get that discount.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Like Joe sez, building cabinets is not brain surgery...but getting them to fit can be<G> I've built a lot of cabinets, but, on site is not a good choice...unless you can set up a unisaw, radial arm, drillpress, lathe, jointer and shaper. Ok, I've been one situation where we did that, and pulled it off...but I never want to do it again.
And as Adrian said, the finish is the hard part. It's a bitch on site. It's a bitch if your shop's not set up for it. And, it's not cheap.
I have found it much cheaper and less painful to hire out to good shops. There is a steep learning curve, and it can cost you a bunch to climb that hill on the fly.
But, dang if it can't be fun<G>
Pics are from '90, way before digital, sorry... EliphIno!
Why don't you detail it out on paper, and then buy cab and drawer boxes KD from someone like Scherr's or Cab Parts or Vass, then buy the door and drawerfronts from someone like Scherr's or Keystone or Conestoga. Final assembly and installation is easy. You won't make a dusty mess, won't have a whole bunch of rips and offcuts to burn or haul off, won't be breathing paint fumes and getting spatter on the floors, and you cannot, repeat cannot, finish the fronts as well as the guys with factory paint lines.
Your client obviously wants something the level of Mouser quality. You had better be able to deliver it, somehow.