Hello everyone, I’ve read most if not all the posts in regards to cutting C.F. board and everybody seems to agree that shears are the way to go vs. circ or miter saw.
My question is this however: Are you able to cut nice square butt joints with the shears? I am using the 9 1/4″ boards with 8″ reveal and don’t want any of the butt joints on the long walls to look sloppy. Can you use some sort of ‘fence’ or square so that the shears cut perfectly straight, or do most of you free hand when cutting with shears?
Trying to cut a perfect line in paper with scissors is hard, I can’t imagine free handing with power shears would result in a straight cut.
I plan to start siding next week and would appreciate any feedback!
Mike
Replies
Most every butt is a factory end, and they are good and square, with a tiny bit of edge ease.
Can you describe the circumstance under which you will have butts that involve cut ends?
And yes, you can cut right to the straight line with the shears. No problemo.
Hi there...I'm thinking on an 8 ft high X 40 ft long wall for example....staggering all the joints from bottom plate to top...I think I just answered my own question though. All the cut ends would end up in the corners where it would meet the corner trim pieces and then hidden with caulk.
I was worried that I would end up with a factory edge and a cut edge butting in the middle run of a long wall but I musn't have thought this one through until just now.
Correct me if I'm wrong.....
You'll be OK. Just get out the shears, nailguns, etc., and get working. Those joints will look great.
Peruse the "Adverse Conditions" thread in the Photo Gallery subfolder here, and you will get some good ideas for handling fibercement details.
The cut is also cleaner one one side than the other.
Around here in NC the boxers butt joint the hardi with a metal clip that ensures about a 1/8 gap and covers the joint at the same time. It paints to match the hardi. Sorry, I don't know the name of this part.
I was given to think the hardi needed to be gapped for movement, but I don't know for sure. Maybe somebody else can speak to this...
Cut from the back side. You won't be able to use any type of fence, the head on the shears doesn't really let you. The shears are easy to control though.
Hey DDay
what do you pay per SQ West of Boston? Material cost.
I got quoted over $600 for finished planks 48" straight notched, and almost $500 for primed. This seemed awful high, wasn't sure if the guy ginving me the quote new how to calculate the # of planks per SQ??
To be honest, I don't know what it is right now. I'm doing siding right now but just order it, don't look at the slip. I like the 6 1/4" (5" exposure) primed cedar mill, it covers a little quicker than the 4" and the lumber yards stock that size which is easier to deal with. A couple of years ago, it was about $70 per sq for that size, its probably a little more now with some inflation and added fuel costs for shipping.
I use Stock building supply in Norwood, they were General Builders but merged with the larger national company. Nice people over there, and I think in general their materials are better quality than the others. My sale rep over there is Rich Amour, really nice guy and excellent service. I think he mainly sells interior trim, doors, etc but I use him for everything.
I've always used shears and you can use your speed square as a guide if needed.
I cut from the back side and butt the field joints tight and use a rasp to cleanup the edges a little. Don't round them off just clean them up and getting the two butting boards flush and straight is pretty important. You'll see it if thier not flush.
Howie
Thanks everyone....I just got my PC roofing nailer today and am trying to source the shears. The Malco drill attachment shears seem interesting but can't seem to find them anywhere (in Western Canada atleast). You wouldn't believe how many of the tool suppliers have NO idea when I inquire about the FC shears. " You wanna cut what??.....you can't cut 'concrete' with shears!...we have some that cut sheet metal, will that work?"One last question, are any of the overlap gauges worth purchasing? Seems like a good idea but not sure if they are useful. Looks like I wouldn't be as dependent on another set of hands if I was using the gauges. Thanks for your input.Mike
Here is the link to snapper (corded shears) http://www.pactool.us/index.htm. I know there is northwest power tools that carrys the shears, they probably ship to Canada. They might carry the malco too if that is your preference. There is also abc supply a national siding/roofing supply house. They might ship up north and they do carry both the electric shears and malcos, plus the gauges, etc. http://www.abccatalog.com/store/index.asp
There are three gauges that malco makes, one has 5", 6", 7", etc stops whereas the other allows for varied exposure. I didn't bother witht he gauges, I just make a little block 5", my house doesn't lend for cheating the exposure to line up with the windows. If you have a colonial or another design that allows you to cheat the exposure some to get a full piece above and below the windows, do that. The gauges are only $10 and $20, so not a big expense.
The other gauge is the one that is another hand. Don't know how well those work. Here's the link though. http://www.abccatalog.com/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=8604653022
They also have knock off clips http://www.abccatalog.com/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=4228001808 but haven't used them so don't know anything about them other than the expense would probably add up over a whole house, and it might affect how the siding lays against the house.
Thanks for all the info so far. I finally phoned Malco and they put me in touch with a local distributor, I can pick up the drill attachment for about $200 CDN which is reasonable.
Sounds like a lot of mixed reviews for the best tried & true cutting method. One post states the guys leave the shears in the truck all the time and go for the saw and the next one says the opposite...hmmmm....what's a guy to do.
Apparently the warehouse is out of stock on the 9 1/4" primed, smooth planks anyway so I have a couple weeks to make up my mind.
Mike
I've done a lot of F/C siding the last 5 or 6 years and use both the shears and a saw and a diamond blade on a 4 1/2" grinder for cleaning up corners and radiuses and sometimes an abrasive blade in a jig saw for details.
I have the PC shears and have never had a bit of trouble with them. I found a while back that some delamination happens when you try to force the shears at high speed (the shears are variable speed). You can usually cut faster and cleaner at less than top tool RPM and by tilting the shears just right 'till they find an efficient cutting angle.
The curlycues aren't a problem....just keep them wiped away. I always lay a small tarp under the cutting table...gather up the curls and throw them in my garden (acid soil here....the F/C crumbles work as well as ag lime).
For the saw, I'm pretty happy with the Hitachi plank cutting blades....they'll usually last through a couple of medium-sized houses.
I prefer the saw when gang cutting; you can stack up 5 or six planks and make factory-like cross cuts.
On one job, the owner wanted an alternate exposure of 7" and 3''. We gang ripped the narrow planks with a saw 6 at a time.
And like Mike Smith, I prefer the Certainteed product....I get mine through Allied Bldg. Material Supply, along with roofing and a few other things....great company....wide selection of brands (including Hardy)...reliable delivery....usually beat the yards and the big boxes on price; nationwide company.
notch... do they usually go under the name of ABC Supply ?
i'll have to check them out on pricing.. i'm pretty sure the products are fairly even in cost, so the price differential has to be in the distribution chain
one other thing. we've installed 6 1/4 at 4" exposure ( 1670 colonial ) and 7 1/4 at 6"
i don't especially like the 6" exposure i think next time i'd spec the 6 1/4 plank at 5" exposure
do you play with your exposures to try to hit layout points ? like sills & head casings ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Do you play with your exposures....
Absolutely. Not only to adjust for head casings and sills, but, like you, I usually install a water table (not only functional and attractive, but makes a nice, level starting base) and getting an even layout to the soffet often means fudging a bit.
And we usually fudge to a wider lap if possible.
Of course, this can get a little tricky on a house with varying window heights and at the same time, keeping the siding runs matched on corners.
I always layout with a story pole.
Hi Notch..what material do you guys typically use for your water table? Seems like it would be a nice touch as well as functional.
Mike
I like Azek for the water table, the wood ones just don't last with the water. It's not cheap but it will last forever and looks great.
For this I used 1x12's and cut a bevel then use the two pieces to make up the table. The Azek rips well but your arm looks like a snow man after the 18ft.
I make up the corners of the water table with 5/4 Azek and rabbit out enough for the 3/4" azek to fit in, this allows for the expansion/contraction on the long runs and also gives a little shadow line at the corners that I think looks nice.
Any chance you could post a simple drawing of the water table you make? I'm about to start a FC job (my own house) and have been scratching my head on this very detail. I like the AZEX idea too. Does it really take and hold paint?
I'll post a close up pic tomorrow (remind me if I forget). It's simple to explain though. It's 1x12 Azek that I rip at a 30 degree bevel, I've seen 45 degree, 10 degree, etc. I like the look of 30 the best. The bottom of the table is 9" at the long point, so the angle piece is about 2 1/2" to the long point. I've seen a lot of builders do it with a 1x10 and a 1x3 but then you don't have the angle on the bottom piece which makes it easier to line them up.
The pic I posted is on the second floor. That would look stupid with the regular water table, so that one is different. On that one, I didn't want just a 1x8, I wanted a shadow line to add to it a bit. That one is just a 5/4x2" top piece and a 1x8 on the bottom, glued the entire way. I really do not like the look of drip caps. On top of a window is fine but in the front of the house, I did not want the long stretch. So the 5/4"x2" top piece is beveled at something like 10 degrees. That pitch should be enough to keep any water out, the siding stands off the house close to that, so only the very outer edge could get any water.
I used to use a good quality PT structural select Doug fir, but the quality declined.
I've used Azek, which is fine, but it's brittle and one of my guys dropped a scaffold plank on a finished job once and popped a big chunk out.
I've since had good results with Trex planks ripped down. Can be painted or stained.
To give credit where credit is due, awhile back, I started using Trex for sills on exterior window trim....I believe it was Mike Smith who offered that method here at BT.
So the Trex watertable was a no-brainer.
Edited 6/10/2006 2:42 pm by Notchman
Thanks again for the info. One last simple question though...I assume all joints are randomly staggered to avoid any patterns? I've only worked with Vinyl siding up until now so this is somewhat new. Mike
You nail into the studs, so I run the first board from a corner to the closest stud. Hardie is 12', so the first board will be just short of that usually. Then the next will be 2 studs shorter, then 2 studs shorter, etc, then start over. Your making pyramids. If you figure out which way your walls were framed then the second piece in each given row will not need to be cut, 12' is 16" oc. 9 studs. This method makes it somewhat of a system and keep the seems 3 or 4 rows apart.
FHB had a pretty good article on it a few years ago, I think 2001 or 2002.
Don't forget to use felt splines or what Mike Smith uses, coil aluminum stock for the butt joints.. the vinyl would probably work too.
I rip the sill and stool of the water table at about a 7 degree angle, "glue" the sill atop the stool with a polyurethane adhesive (I use Vulcum), pin it with a 15 ga. finish nailer (galv. nails), then predrill and screw it togather with trapeze screws (you have to predrill or the screws will split the Trex).
I stagger the joints of the stool and sill, leave about a 1/8" gap to fill with the Vulcum. I prefer to use the 5/4" X 12' Trex for this because it's easier to handle than the 16' and a more frequent gap seems to solve the expansion of the Trex in warm weather.
When F/C is going over the watertable, I spot PT lath along the top of the watertable, and then lay a custom bent 1/4" X 2" flashing over the lath and nail it across the top then start the F/C plank (I'm on the coast, so the flashing is just an extra prtection to keep driving winter rains from getting under the plank and behind the watertable.
Edit: I reread your post and I guess you were asking about staggering the planks. I always try to keep adjoining butt joints at least 3' to 4' apart and at least 3 courses apart. Not always possible, but I try to use the same practice for staggered joints as I do when laying wood flooring.
Edited 6/12/2006 12:37 am by Notchman
Hi Notch...thanks again for the detailed info.I picked up a copy of the Taunton "Exterior Siding" book and they state that butt joints do not necessarily need to fall on studs and that nailing to sheathing anywhere between studs is acceptable. "...But I've found that as long as the studs are straight and not bowed, joints in the siding can fall midway between studs and stll be held tight with nails in the studs adjacent to the seam. On a long wall, this feature lets me use full 12ft . planks that don't need cutting to land on studs and don't need predrilling for nails on the butt seems" Pg. 96.Whadya think?
I always sheath with plywood (the 1/2" CDX sheathing I typically use is all Doug fir 5 ply) and not OSB and I don't worry about catching studs....besides, my nailing pattern is closer to 12" than 16."
If I was nailing to OSB, I would take pains to catch the studs because, in my experience, OSB doesn't, by itself, offer much withdrawal resistance to nails....even ringshanks.
I just ripped 1x4 Hardy trim on a 30 degree bevel and ended up with 2 pieces for the water table mounted over 1X7 Hardy. Slow sawing even with the Hardy blade but looks great. I even had to fasten the 7 inch to the wall with TapCon screws to match up with an adjacent lower framed wall.
Other Pix is treatment of a 7' wide dormer with twin windows also with Hardy trim.
I disagree about the FC shears. They tend to delaminate the edges of the cut and I would not use them for butt joints if s saw is available. Yes the saw makes some dust, but that can be minimized by using a blade made for FC (10", six teeth) and placing a fan to move the fine stuff away from the cutting area.
My whole trepedation about FC is the delamination particularily when the pcs. get small or nailed too close to edge.
I don't hang FC siding for a living, but I did quite a bit of it last year on a house we're fixing up. The FC shears are OK for edges that will be hidden or for curved cuts. They are much faster than a jig saw with a carbide-grit blade. The shears will fray and delaminate the edges and the cut edges usually require clean up with a rasp (dust).
Cut from the back side. Glue up the butt joint with urethane caulk and use a soft plastic putty knife to remove the excess caulk. The softer the the putty knife or tool lets it follow the embossing. I used a 2" overlap because thats what the gauges my neighbor had. Gauges are very handy.
And the shears still don't address the problem of cutting the 1" trim which has to be done with a good Hardy blade. So why not just saw it all?
The shears are OK for curved cuts on planks because they're much faster than a jig saw. Buy you are right about the rest, the saw works best.
The dust, the dust and oh yeah the dust. Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The dust, the dust and oh yeah the dust.
I would not use FC if not for the shears, it just not worth dealing with the dust. I use Azek for the trim anyways.
The dust, the dust and oh yeah the dust. Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The FC siding guys I use don't use shears. They use circ saws. I don't know why, but know they have the shears in the truck - which is where they stay. So, personally, I don't see the shears as essential. It's more of a personal health/safety issue with the dust. If I were doing it all day everyday, I'd use the shears - but I'm just telling you what I have observed.
The shears don't work so good if the siding material is wet or quite damp.
BTW - read over this thread too: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=74641.1
Some people like the shears, some people like using the saw.
If you are going to use a saw:
1. WEAR A DUST MASK!!!!!!! WEAR A DUST MASK!!!!!! That dust will get into your lungs and sit there. We were warned that we could have some serious health risks if we kept breathing in the dust (silica poisoning).
2. Get a blade designated for cutting F.C. ( hardi blade).
If you are going to use the shears, dont get the Porter Cable shears. A number of people that I have talked to didnt like the P.C, shears. Check ebay for the Malco shears that you can attach to your drill (think Ive seen them for around $100 U.S.). Seems like a lot of poeple are happy with them ( check amazon reviews and Mike Smith). Ive been able to cut a pretty straight line with the shears.
To clean up your cuts, use one of those sanding sponges instead of a rasp. Ive found that works better. I also use my utility knife to mark my lines instead of a pencil ( got tired of sharpening my pencil all the time).
-m2akita
we've got the Makita FC saw... and we hook it up to our Fein auto-vac, we use a FC blade in it
we used that set-up for 3 years
this year i bought the Malco shears that mount on any drill..
my guys don't want to use the saw any more..
so i bought a 2d Malco shear
the Malco shear does not delaminate the plank
the Malco shear does not make any dust
the Malco shear cuts a straight line.. you can free hand it.. or use a saw guide
you make all cuts from the back... you can rip a plank with the shear as fast as you can rip it with a saw
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, I don't get the delamination posts. I have the snapper eletric shears and have never had any problem with delamination on butt joints. The cutting head on your malco's and the snapper are basically the same. The one thing I noticed on cutting with the shears is if you do rip cuts down the FC, one cut is fine but the second you'll have problems with delamination. The first time I used the shears to rip a starter strip to bevel out the siding for the first course, the first cut was fine but the second 1 1/4" strip instantly delaminated badly, very badly. So, for the rip cuts, I just use a cheap hilti cement blade, about $2.
That's the only time I've had any issues. Angle cuts are fine too, its just the length wise rips. Have you noticed anything similar? I use hardie, I know you use certainteed or another.
i still prefer the Certainteed... but they are non-competitive in my market... i think the Certainteed is a better plank... better woodgain pattern...
but their distribution system or their jobbers affect the bottom line ..
i've tried to buy their product , but all my suppliers can get Hardie a lot easier than they can get CTD.. even when i try buying from my Ctd Roofing suppliers
i've been laying brick.. so i haven't had a lot of hands-on with the FC.. i'll ask Roy & Chuck what they think of the shear / FC saw bit... and the delamination issue / non-issue
and the HArdie / Certainteed issueMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The company I work for just bought the Makita FC saw, and no one likes it!!!! Bad sight line, blade guard is hard to lift, and its heavy. I think with a little fine tuneing the blade guard could be taken care of, but I dont know. Ive used my Porter Cable saw ( PC 347) and hooked a vacumn up to the exhuast chute on it, and that didnt work to bad.
A lady I worked for a couple of years ago had a dedicated dewalt 12" miter saw that was hooked up to a vacumn, which worked real nice for cross cuts. That worked real nice.
I think that the delamination problem with the shears comes from when people twist the shears just a bit and start cutting/ripping on a bevel. Or are using dull blades.
From all that you have said, I think I am going to have to get a pair of the Malco shears the next time we will be doing FC siding.
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
"I think that the delamination problem with the shears comes from when people twist the shears just a bit and start cutting/ripping on a bevel. Or are using dull blades."Might be true, but the Steelhead shear I have is not the best balanced tool I've ever used. The other thing that annoys me about the FC shear is that #!@% curl of kerf siding that rolls up as you make long cuts. Just trying to see the cut line around that moving mess is enough to make me tilt the blade as I cut.
My vote goes to both having a saw and the shears availible.
For visible cuts one of the better hardi blades is quick, albeit dusty. Also, for speed it's hard to match how fast a saw can make one "board" into two.
Many times those who dislike the results with a saw are using a cheap blade with thin plate that warps when it heats up. The better hardi blades are stiff to resist warping and have enough set to the teeth to keep the cut straight. Also, blade depth effects cut quality.
If you're in a bind and need to use a regular carbide wood-cutting blade, stay away from the thin kerf blades that will heat up quickly and wander all over the place. I won't admit it, but some mild tweaking of the set of the teeth with a crecent wrench can greatly improve a normal blade's performance. Like I said, you heard that from someone else. :-)
For curved cuts, a worn out coarse wood-cutting jigsaw blade cuts pretty darn well when used at slow speeds. Use them at a fast speed and they'll last for one cut. Since switching to a Collins Coping Foot for cutting copes on trim, there seems to be a large supply of coarse worn out blades for this purpose.
The carbide jigsaw blades cut so slow that I have a hard time getting excited about them.
Sometimes having a sawzall with coarse blade is handy when used at slow speed.
A mini grinder with coarse diamond blade can come in handy for small oddball cuts (outlets, etc.) or to clean up small sections of a cut that might be binding or something else out of the ordinary. If something is binding on an already installed board, the grinder can sometimes make a quick fix in a tight spot.
To eliminate the dust/health problem for most situations the shears are probably worth the cost. Also, the extra wear and tear on wood-cutting tools will quickly pay for a shear, or simply suggest using your buddy's saws.
Cheers
I put Hardiplank on my house two years ago. A friend lent me his shears, which worked great. My 18 year old son did most of the cutting, got the hang of it quickly and the shears worked great. They recommend gaps at the end joints which I filled with Vulcum Polyurethane Sealant Caulk. I forced it into the joints and smoothed it with my finger wearing nitrile gloves. Went through several gloves and lots of caulk, but so far I have not seen much evidence of failure along the joints, which is a big problem on many of the new houses I have seen with Hardiplank. In short, you can cut fairly accurately with shears, and they are much better to use than saws. The shears do not send out a cloud of dust. Since you are supposed to gap the seems, an accurate cut is not so critical, but good caulk and care applying it is. Once the caulk and siding were painted the joints were not very visible. Good luck.
I've read in a few places that the caulk doesn't show after you paint. I'm planning on using white planks and not painting. How would that read?Thanks,
Anthony"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the pig."
Edited 6/11/2006 9:35 pm ET by berone
The colored caulking is suppose to match the siding, I think OSI has the most colors. I would talk to a sale rep for hardie or whatever product you are using, they'll know the best.
If your not familiar with FC siding, check out some of the old threads. Most (if not all) including myself think installing the pre painted FC would be difficult to near impossible without doing some damage to the sidings finish. The handling of the siding so it doesn't scratch the paint would be very tough, and the caulking after that would not be fun.
The prepainted and prestained is incredibly durable; you'd be surprized.
Cut from the back and use a speed square. The big one. You get used to it after a while and you will find that you can cut great butt joints. Avoid the cancer dust, get good with the sheers.
I am using a newer porter cable sheer and am having good luck with them. Also I have been using the disposable clips/spacers by Bear Cub Industries Inc. They work great and make the job simple. Easy to do by yourself. There website is http://www.bearclip.com. Great product. The small tab that remains after you break off the clip help to allow for water drainage. These were demonstrated at the S E B C.last year.
I finally found a local distributor for the Malco shears and the facing gauges & clips. Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and help....hopefully all goes well.
Mike
I've been using the Porter Cable shears for about 6 years or so. I have never had a problem using them, and have never had a delamination problem.
Saws are not an option for me... I just cannot take the dust.
Just my humble opinion...James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
I worked with hardi- siding since it first came out. Love the stuff. I do not like using shears. I prefer to use the hardi- saw blades which cut down on dust. If your concerned with dust you can use the makita skillsaw with the dust catching feature. However, it is hard to see the blade in relation to the line so I built cutting jig similiar to what you would cut I-joists with.