Hi folks !
I’m looking for software to design and present furniture, I’ve seen that Punch Software includes Cabinet Workshop in most of it’s architectural design software, but I don’t have a clue on what it would enable me to do. I’ve also seen stuff like Kitchen builder, It’s quite impressive, but it’s way too expensive.
Is there anyone who knows about that kind of software and who could be of help in describing the capabilities of some of the products on the market ?
Hugues
Replies
You could prowl around here for a couple of days...
http://www.woodweb.com/index.html
or post over at Knots with the same Q
http://www.taunton.com/forums/fnn04.gif
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Thanks Mr Piffin !
I appreciate you took time to answer me. I've already took a look at woodweb and, honestly, I don't think that enough information can be gathered there. I wish that people who tried those software answer me.
Tour second suggestion is a good one. I tought I was already in Knots, but I realise that my search for past discussion in Knots has lead me to Kitchens and Baths.
Hugues
Actually, this is FHB Breaktime which is morre for homebuilders than for cab makers who abound at FWWs Knots. I use a CAD program for builders and architects but it is inadequate for cabs. I think that if you were to prowl the forums at woodweb, you would find some previous threads discussing this subnject.
There is a fellow here, Armin who might be able to comment if we can draw him in..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Gee, Piff, I think cabinets are a big part of homebuilding! To be honest I feel more at home here than I do on the FWW board, mainly because I've spent most of my time on job sites.
Fair enough and I've seen your excellent work in the gallery, but I guess what I meant is that the percentage of guys here who do enough of it to invest in good software is probably less by far than in Knots. Think?
Joe staddards Computer solutions at JLConline might be another source for comments..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I'm not so sure about that, from what I can tell, most of them are trying to find the perfect way to use the perfect tool, and haven't gotten to the design stage yet.
It's been awhile since I was there, I guess..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
can't help much on the inexpensive programs....I do teach Cabnetware, but it's not cheap. Not sure what the simple design version costs, but if you want to be able to extract cutlists, optimise sheets of materials, etc., you're looking at thousands just to do residential cabinetry, over 10K if you want to be able to do the more oddball commerical stuff (and add a few thousand on if you want to be able to link to CNC). I think it's mostly pointless just to have a design package; the usefulness is in quickly doing all the grunt work of cutlisting, etc., and that costs. Cabinetvision is the same (Kitchen Builder is their economy version).
The package you might look at is KCDw (www.kcdw.com); seems to be a good package fro smaller shops, and it's improving. Not sure what the current price is. Most of the programs now are based around modules you can add on depending what your requirements are.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Hugues,
A web page you might want to check out is cabinetmaker online. http://www.cabinetmakeronline.com
I receive the magazine and it always has software advertisers. CWB, FDM, Modern Woodworking, and Wood & Wood Products are other trade magazines that may also help. Most of the software adds I see in those publications are for cabinets and cad/cam operations. Other programs besides what Adrian mentioned are Cabinet Vision, eCabinetSystems, and Cabinet Solutions. I got a price list for KCDw a few weeks back, and a trial version can be had for $45, the cabinet maker program runs $3600, and the cabinet designer program runs $1400.
These may do what you want for designing cabinets, but not sure on the furniture aspect. When I was in college I took an art class so I could learn how to draw. The whole purpose was to learn how to put renditions of furniture ideas on paper. With a little practice and learning the basics, I realized I could actually draw.LOL Just something to think about. Hope my 2 Cents helps.
Mitch
That's interesting....they're getting into Cabnetware/Cabinetvision pricing territory. ECabinets is still new, lots of bugs supposedly and you have to qualify to get it (free, but ideally you buy all your gear from the 'partners'). I'm thinking of suing them, because for a long while here my tagline was 'e-cabinetry our specialty'.
The reason I wouldn't put any money into one of the design-only programs is, in the same amount of time that it takes you to draw the kitchen in the design program, the manufacturing program also provides cutlists, optimises sheets (if you have that module or whatever, depending on the package), provides door/drawer lists to send for quotes, counts hardware, provides countertop shop drawings to build from or send for quotes....you can also generate shop drawings if you need to go to architects for approval, and it generates proposals and contracts. And updates everything in seconds if a change is required. Doesn't always work as well as the makers claim, but it can save a massive amount of time and eliminate mistakes.
If someone is at the CNC level, you can go screen-to-machine....all the info is there. A local Cabinetvision/Thermwood CNC router vendor did a demo at a show recently.....fifteen base cabinets, fifteen uppers, cut, machined, assembled, ready to go, in 45 minutes, and this combo (in fact, all the software we've discussed), is aimed at small shops.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Don't have a good answer for you, but I can tell you that the Punch! software is a lame add-on to their building design program (first-hand knowledge here). You would have to spend a great deal of time constructing 3D objects in a very convoluted manner to even get started. Take a pass on it, in my opinion.
I did miss that one. Punch is noted for making internal corrections that subtract from accuracy. OK for generic design work on homes only..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Hugues,
You get what you pay for, as Adrian points out, when buying trusted software, like Cabnetware and Cabinet Vision, because they not only draw pretty pictures, but they also generate accurate cutlists (to 0.001") and proposals. I can't see buying software that just draws pictures.
I've got to add that you also pay for what you get. I've been running Cabnetware's entry level Case Planner (@ $2500 for either Euro or traditional face frame version) for a year. I've also paid dearly in time setting it up to design the way I build cabinets. I've been too busy and couldn't justify paying over $300/day plus travel for classes, such as those Adrian probably teaches, believing that steady use is the only way to learn any software. Although I should have taken at least one of his classes, I believe, after a dozen successful jobs, that I know and trust the software. Now, it's finally paying for itself.
I used to sketch shop drawings, layout on horizontal and vertical story poles, generate accurate cutlists with MS Excel, and used Word to write proposals. I still use story poles occasionally, to confirm Cabnetware's cutlists, but only for new design setups. I wouldn't like going back to laying out by hand, because it's so cumbersome when I make inevitable mid-project design changes. In fact, that's why I purchased cabinet design software. It took a year, but I'm sold on it. If I produced only a kitchen or two a year, however, I couldn't justify the initial cost or the time it's taken to learn the program - I'd still be designing by hand.
Gary
Piffin: Although Knots is one of the forums I watch, I keep an eye on Breaktime too, because there are often threads relating to cabinet making, design and installation.
Edited 12/2/2002 3:58:44 PM ET by Gary Weisenburger
Gary, just for the record, I don't teach Cabnetware for the company....we do two semesters of it in the two-year diploma program I teach (also, two semesters of Autocad). I never had any formal training in Cabnetware (tough I think anyone would benefit from some training, and Cabnetware supplied us with some lessons and projects)....pretty much picked it up by using it, and I don't have everything figured out yet. Some people seem to have a nightmare getting theses programs running properly, some don't....a lot is in the service, whcih may be regional.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian,
I'd have to drive three or four hours for classes at Cabnetware, and I think the cost is nearly $350 per day. My experience is that, since we all use somewhat different building methods, there wouldn't be enough one-on-one teaching in a class of twenty or more students, most using the full blown program. Tech support is o.k., but the three months that comes with the software is not half what most of us require, and it'd cost $500 to purchase more. I wish Cabnetware were taught at a local community college and at typical tuition costs, like Autocad, but it isn't. Anyway, I learned it on my own, and I've still got most of the hair I started with.
I came close to abandoning the software a few months ago, but persevered. In the meantime, I've notified the company of a number of bugs, and hopefully they'll be fixed in the next, updated version. One that really annoys me is that the Euro version won't layout cabinet section widths based on equal width doors. Instead, it carrys over the Frame version's tendency to use equal width sections, because those doors have equal overlays. Euro cabinet doors do not have equal width overlays, so those section widths cannot be equal. I therefore have to use my Construction Master calculator to manually calculate section widths. It seems a $3000 program would have figured that one out before it's release.
Maybe I need a working/educational vacation to Cape Breton. Hmm....
Gary