Wasn’t quite sure how to word that title. I want to learn more about designing cabinets, ordering the component parts, and providing the install once the prefinished parts arrive. What is the best source to educate myself to the options? What experiences have others had doing this? Any suggestions or caveats?
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CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
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We'll see if we can get Gene in on this, he's done a lot with flat boxed cabs.
Meanwhile try the search with his name as a poster and see what you find.
[email protected]
If you build cabinets now, with parts you cut yourself from panel (read: ply or melamine) stock and boards (read: solid species wood for fronts), then you should go to the eCabinets site and get the free software they offer.
With the software, you can build a library of "seed" cabinets for use in designing just about any kitchen or bath imaginable. The software outputs cutting lists, buying lists, and job files that can be emailed to a production sharing house for cutting your parts.
If you don't build cabs now, you might want to get started in this biz of doing jobs from purchased KD components, by ordering a job from Scherr's Cabinets and Doors, Minot, ND. They ship everywhere.
With a Scherr's package, all the engineering is done for you, and you have bundled your purchase into one package, rather than needing to go to multiple sources. It would be a good way to gain some experience with sizing cabs for the order, dealing with the questions re accessories and options, then doing the assembly at job time.
Beginning with three to six pallet loads of components, I can put together a job's worth of cabs, ready for hanging to walls, in one to two days. Those pallets will contain all the carcase parts, drawerslides, drawerboxes, doors, drawerfronts, miscellaneous hardware and fasteners, plus toeboards, fillers, crown stock, special panels, yadda, yadda, yadda. There is a lot of detail.
To go straight into it, you need to operate just like a cab shop operation that outsources everything. You'll need a parts cutter CNC shop that does production sharing, and you can find those at the Thermwood site. I noted about 8 of them in California. You'll need sources for doors, drawerfronts, drawerboxes, slides, hinges, and all the miscellany unique to the cab making crowd. Go on line to some of the online stores, and start familiarizing yourself with stuff. Woodworkers Hardware is a good one.
Go the the Woodweb forum, and read all the knowledge base articles and commentaries, ranging from "frameless versus framed" to "installation methods." There are may more cab pros hanging out there than here. Go also to the True32 website and read through forum topics. True32 subjects tend to be about cab design and shop throughput.
We don't currently build cabinets. We do 8-10 kitchens a year and do 30+ bathroom remodels a year that involve cabinetry. We buy a variety of products based on the clients wishes/economic ability. Typically from off the rack at Lowes to custom order from a local shop.
My question is, is there an economic advantage to handling the assembly and design in house vs taking my measurements to a home center and allowing them to design it and installing the order? Currently I would estimate our time of design, including drive time etc., at about 8 hours a kitchen with 2 more if changes are made.
Then material handling at maybe 4 hours before install. That is unload and check in, unbox, move to site if needed etc. I assume this number would be the same your way or mine. So is your method less expensive? I realize quality can be an issue but frankly that is a sliding scale based on what the client will pay for. Our local shop does nice stuff if you can sell the price which frankly can be a struggle. Most of our clients even in nice areas are perfectly content with Kraftmaid etc. and have already looked when we show up.
I would love to handle the design and grow this side of my business if I thought there is some economic reason. What do you think? DanT
I cannot answer your questions unless you answer mine.
Are you doing the cabinets purchasing, then selling at a mark-up to your clients?
Do you want to be in the cabinet business?
Are you capable of designing a roomful of cabs and appliances from scratch? In other words, can you offer your clients the value they get by hiring a designer?
Can you upsell your value versus stock cabs from Kraft Maid?
I cannot answer your questions unless you answer mine.
Ok, I will give it a shot.
Are you doing the cabinets purchasing, then selling at a mark-up to your clients?
Yes.
Do you want to be in the cabinet business?
If doing so is profitable and I can make it work with my current system.
Are you capable of designing a roomful of cabs and appliances from scratch? In other words, can you offer your clients the value they get by hiring a designer?
Yes. I have only had 2 clients out of say 60 hire a designer. We were responsible for the design on the other. And in all fairness often we are just making modest changes to the original layout.
Can you upsell your value versus stock cabs from Kraft Maid?
Only to a degree. It is a tough area and very blue collar so the sky is not the limit in most areas where I live. We are not the cheapest by 20% as it is so I would guess there is a limit as to how far I can go in upsell of total cost. I believe we can sell another brand and show superior quality but price of product may hit a limit. DanT
It sounds as if it won't work for you. If a lot of your work is down at the the price level of stock sizes bigbox brands of cabs, you should just keep on doing what you are doing.
With me outsourcing a cab package the way I do, the cost numbers come in below a Kraft Maid package when specs are identically equal, but not enough below it to justify my getting involved.
"With me outsourcing a cab package the way I do, the cost numbers come in below a Kraft Maid package when specs are identically equal, but not enough below it to justify my getting involved."
I hate seeming dense but don't understand that statement. I said we sell primrily Kraftmaid cabinets but we buy them and have them designed at the local Lowes. So if the way you are handling it is costing you less, quality as good or better, then wouldn't I be ahead to look into it? I wasn't looking for you to get involved, just wondered about the comparison and if might have a percentage number of difference. DanT
When I said "not enough to justify . . . ," I meant that if MY client wants Kraft Maid, I can buy the package as outsourced components for less, but that the margin isn't enough to interest me in doing the job.
I did a price check on a whole house package for a townhome recently that had a kitchen plus three bath vanities. Kraft Maid from Lowe's was about $8500 for the whole thing, and a package of components, going apples to apples on specs, was about $6300.
Your mileage may vary.
I look for a client that wants and appreciates custom work, whether it is special units for building-in high end appliances, custom-sized runs that eliminate fillers, and millwork touches like bun feet, furniture legs, built-in seating, species such as doug fir or australian wormy chestnut, not available from any namebrand makers. Stainless steel doors.
Thanks. That is about 20-23% difference. Enough to get me to look into it. I appreciate your time and info. I will dig further. My client aren't like yours lol. I get a custom kitchen about once a year and about 4-5 baths. The rest are stanard knock it out and replace it stuff. Thanks again. DanT
Not sure of your capabilities, But you could probably get a higher mark up if you bought the boxes from someplace like Cabparts and the doors d/faces, and put 'em together and installed them...
JMHO (that and $10 might get you a cuppa coffee)
Bud
That is what I was trying to learn. Maybe I miss stated it. If putting them together would be as or more profitable then I would be interested. What I was trying to say was how I currently handled it and then asking if the way Gene was handling it might be a better way for us to go.
The one big issue with our current situation is there is one good kitchen designer left in town and 3 that are ok. The good one works at Lowes. He has thoughts of leaving. He leaves and I am back to having to scrounge for design work since I lack software and the ability to use it. So we are looking at various alternatives. DanT
Dan,
Why don't you look in to becoming a dealer for a cabinet company.
Bertch? Kountry Kraft, others?[email protected]
That is another consideration to what I said above. So far everyone we have talked to had someone in this area. But I am sure we can find someone. DanT