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Who knows the determining factors to qualify as a Master Carpenter?
It seems to me that some sort of rating system should exist to cover the actual building side of the trade.
Plumbers and electricians take tests and must put in years of work for
their licenses. In Massachusetts one can take the state contractors test
(open book test) and be called a licensed contractor but that’s as far as it goes.
A definitive list of accomplishments and knowledge needed when one strives to become a Master carpenter would be very useful.
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Replies
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Hey Cal,
We use this criteria:
If you can set up the batter boards for the foundation, set the forms, build the underpinning, frame the house, build the cabinets, trim the walls and ceiling, and install the finish hardware without asking anyone "how to" and do it right, then your peers may call you a Master Carpenter if they are so inclined. You are not allowed to refer to yourself as a Master Carpenter ever. This is a title bestowed upon you that you are to humbled by your vast experience to accept.
Ed. Williams
*Hey FredL,I hope Fusco doesn't chase us over here.Is it possible to be hired as a Master Carpenter without knowledge or ability of the trade? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm just curious. I understand that the union has no title passed journeyman. As a company that hires carpenters in an open shop enviroment, I need to know who is worth thier salt and who is not. It's only by my 26 years in the trade that I am able to do so.Just curious,Ed. Williams
*Calhoun,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*
Dear Ed.,
You got my point. Depending on how motivated you are, it takes 10-20
years to figure out what's going on if you are a workhorse (on the job the whole time) contractor like me.
The reason I posted was an old Cross Section FHB 11/98 pg. 52. I'd been thinking about it for a while anyway and looked up this site. Figured I jump right in.
I don't need to have any labels or titles but I'm looking for some kind of screening system that would not only help those who hire but also people who are serious about the trade and want to know where they stand in the scheme of things and where to go next. Sort of a rough guide.
Years ago, I would use the Walkers Estimator paying close attention to the allotted time for specific jobs to see where I stood. It didn't take long to find out where I could do well and what I would leave alone.
Thanks for the input Ed. & Fred Best regards, Cal
*
I'm a cabinetmaker & reluctant carpenter... Master Carpenter?? No such animal! Abrams??? Maybe..Who knew?
*Interesting discussion. There is a way to legitimately attach the title "Master" behind your name, but perhaps the formal training, structure, and a body to set the standards does not exist in the US. In the UK and rest of Europe there are the trade guilds dating back to medieval times. I trained under the The City and Guilds of London Institute (CGLI) as a cabinetmaker, and categories exist for many trades, including joiner or carpenter. The level of awards following basic training in a trade range from Graduate (GCGI,) to Membership (MCGI,) Licentiateship (LCGI,) and the highest honour Fellowship (FCGI.) Possessing any of the last three I believe designates you a "Master," legitimately earned.We could argue the toss for days about the merits, or demerits of this guild system, and I won't be drawn on it, but any cabinetmaker lacking CGLI qualifications generally finds it harder to find skilled and better paid work than those with the qualifications. Better still in the eyes of many employers is to have also been apprenticed for the designated three year minimum. Employers understand the CGLI system and know that anyone that's been through it has been trained in all the essentials. Whether or not that person is really good on the workbench might be a different story. I ran a museum workshop for a while in the US, and I did sometimes wish that there was an equivalent ruling body so that I, as an employer, could quickly sort the wheat from the chaff. People would say they 'did shop' at school, whatever that means, or that they had a degree in Biology when I asked what woodworking qualifications they possessed. One even said he had a hammer at home in the garage! (I think he was taking the p*ss) I was fairly new in the country, and naive I guess. I look back at that period now and have a wee chuckle about it!!If you happen to think training in Great Britain might be a bit tough, try Germany. I understand (perhaps slightly incorrectly) that to set up in business as a cabinetmaker requires submitting yourself to, and passing appropriate tests to get a certificate allowing you to do so. Without the certificates, sorry, you just aren't going to be in business as a cabinetmaker, carpenter, plumber, mechanic, etc.!
*As I understand it, the german system has two streams during training. You can take one route, which qualifies you as a cabinetmaker, but you cannot open a shop under your own name. This is the route you take if you will never have the capital or the wish to operate your own shop. The other route takes longer, and includes a lot of business training, making a 'master piece' to be judged by other masters, and you have to do some time in at least a couple of shops. You are a master when come out the other end, and are operating a business.I know several Canadians who trained in Germany because the standards are so high. You used to be able to do this in Alberta, because there have been a lot of German cabinetmakers there since the forties. I don't know if you still can.Carpentry and cabinetmaking are both apprenticeable trades in Canada, and you can get journeyman status in either (there are several of us on this board who are certified in one or the other), and you can once again get an interprovincial certificate, but no master level.
*Hey FredL,LOL. I always new we were underappreciated. Ed. Williams
*Cal,Welcome to the site. A new approach or opinion is always welcome from most of us.After so many years, I can pretty much look at a mans tools and tell how skilled he is. Highly skilled people depend on a different set of tools than the new guys. After so many years of experience you just learn what works and what doesn't.Ed. Williams
*Back in the early 70's I worked under a man name of Helmut Hentchel. He was a German trained Carpenter (that's Carpenter with a capitol "C"). He told me when he started his apprentaceship in Germany when he was just a boy, he was not allowed to use power tools until he had mastered hand tools first. He taught me so much that I could never repay him.Thank you Helmut........wherever you are.Ed. Williams
*
Dear Sgian,
Glad to hear from the other side of the puddle.
Sounds like there is an established standard in your region.
I guess the closest thing in this country to your system are the trade schools. The preferred method of qualifying for the next job
here is how well your last job went. Pretty shaky ground considering
how fickle some clients can be. No matter, a good reference base can
help.
In the late sixties I started taking the shop courses offered in my
school system. At the time it seemed so tedious to have to watch demonstrations, read books, and actually pass tests before we could
even touch the tools. Demerits for not wiping the stain from the lip
of the can before the lid went on, silent expressionless scrutiny of that lone sanding mark on the bottom of the cutting board all seemed a bit much. You know what? It wasn't.
Back then, and I suppose now to a certain extent, shop was where
"gear heads" went for an easy grade. A place for the less than gifted kids to go. I didn't care- I was fascinated. We had mechanical drawing classes, a full woodshop,welding, metal shop- Hell by the time I was sixteen I found myself pouring molten aluminum into forms I had packed and operating a 10" bandsaw milled and asembled with my own hands that three months earlier was a pile of scrap in the corner. There were about ten of us then in that class. 1600 students in the school and us, in our small proud and silent fraternity.
It has always puzzled me that so little attention has been paid to
the training and qualifying of carpenters. It amazes me that our
educational system can send students into the work force to spend thirty years of their lives paying off a mortgage without them knowing (the difference between a joist or a) jack s..
I wonder if anyone from the highly respected Japanese trade could
offer their thoughts.
Best Regards, Cal
*CalThe term "master carpenter" is a synonymous term for"carpentry contractor". A carpentry contractor in theU.S. legal system is either the property owner or theproperty owner's agent. A journeyman carpenter is aperson who is skilled at carpentry and personally performs carpentry labor. Thus, when a property ownerneeds to contract with a carpenter to perform labor,the carpenter who agrees to perform the labor is a"journeyman carpenter". The property owner who employs and pays the journeyman is the master carpen-ter or carpentry contractor. If the property owneremploys an agent to negotiate contracts on his be-half, then the agent who employs the journeymen car-penters on behalf of the property owner is deemed thecarpentry contractor or synonymously as the mastercarpenter. Mechanics' lien laws as well as contractorlicensing laws use this classification system. While some states require carpentry contractors to be li-censed, no state requires those who are skilled inthe trade as carpenters (journeymen) to obtain regu-latory licenses pursuant to the state's police power.In Arizona where I live, carpentry contractors (mas-ter carpenters) must obtain a specialty license as acarpentry contractor. The license can be issued to anindividual, partnership, corporation or otherwise. One individual, called the "qualifying party", takesthe test for the license and such individual must bepresent at all the licensee's projects to supervisethe carpentry construction. Certain exemptions fromlicensing are granted. For example, a residential property owner who uses the residence only for dwell-ing and not for business purposes requiring employeesor business visitors is exempt. Such property ownercan negotiate his/her own contracts with the journey-men carpenters he/she chooses to employ. As you see,the term "master carpenter" has nothing to do with the skill level of the carpenter since all carpentrylabor is performed by mechanics (journeymen). Moststates, as a condition for a carpentry contractor li-cense, require practical experience as a carpenter.This is the case in Arizona where I live and work asa journeyman carpenter.Robert HaugenTucson, Arizona
*CAL, Im new to the site and read about what you said how it takes 10-20 yrs to know whats going on.I have been doing construction for 5 yrs and think I know the basics and maybe then some. I recently became a sub and Iam thinking about doing my own thing Iam just not shure if Iam ready. I know all I want to do is construction I live,read,watch construction what do you think is the best way for me to learn more.I feel that if i go on my own I will be forced to learn and think for myself.When I say I know the basics I mean I could build a cape. I used to work for a guy who did construction for 8yrs and had his own susseful bussiness and alot of times I would catch mistakes he would make that I think experinced carpenters should not make. Iam young and know I want to do this for a long time Iam just looking for advice from someone who has been there. THANKS FOR READING. LARRY
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Hey Larry,
Good luck in your adventure.
I've been doing carpentry work since 1972.
I'm still learning.
Ed. Williams
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Dear Larry,
Sounds like you are ready to do jobs on your own. Mistakes are a
way to find your limits. You're going too fast or aren't focused.
Conversely, no mistakes and you are going too slow or you have found a comfortable and perhaps challenge free niche. Works for some guys.
Your best bet is getting a "cape" job and getting some guys for that
specific job. Figure out what you can pay them for their part and what is expected up front. This way you have some assurance of making
some return for your effort. If you don't know it yet, you will find that 8 hours a day won't do. You have to do a surprising amount of paperwork to stay on top of the job.Insurance,bankers,lawyers,lumber
yard slips,payroll,homeowners,all of the subs,special orders,
changes, the artist who drew the set of cartoons you'll work on,the
inspectors and so on to name a few.
When the job is done then you can see where you stand. If you do it
right and haven't lost it yet, you may find another job or two that
develop from people who like the way job turned out.
The trick is doing your homework and having answers for the crew.
No fumbling allowed here. Have the right tools, plenty of materials-
no running to the yard every day and above all a system that works for you.
Ed. is right. You will learn/ grow all the time.
You are only as good as your last job.
Stay small and take it all if you want to do the actual work.
I don't have all the answers and have only framed 100,000 sq.ft..
Pretty grim for 22 years, but much of that time was restoration. I do
have hundreds of client files on record though. I also work at least 50 hours a week. Multiply that times 20 years. The extra time and energy really pays off. Most of the guys who work for you just want to put in their 40 and get paid or they'd be on their own.
I guess I'm saying commit and go for it but don't cut your ties.
More later...
Best regards, Cal
*
Who knows the determining factors to qualify as a Master Carpenter?
It seems to me that some sort of rating system should exist to cover the actual building side of the trade.
Plumbers and electricians take tests and must put in years of work for
their licenses. In Massachusetts one can take the state contractors test
(open book test) and be called a licensed contractor but that's as far as it goes.
A definitive list of accomplishments and knowledge needed when one strives to become a Master carpenter would be very useful.