Hi Everyone.
I saw Fine Homebuilding on the newstand for the first time today and bought a copy which has ended me up here. I really enjoyed the magazine (although I don’t know enough to totally appreciate it all, but hopefully that will change) and I definately like this website. I was hoping some of you might be able to take some time to answer some questions that I have. I would greatly appreciate it.
First I guess I better explain my situation. I am currently in my final year of high school and basically have until February to decide on what I will do for post secondary training. I have been an honours student (80% avg. +) all through high school with many extra curricular involvements. I enjoy keeping a busy schedule, working with people, and being outdoors. During my summers off I work as a maintenance person for a resort and it was during my summers that I relized that I have a great love for carpentry and other physical skilled trades. I am currently considering taking up a carpenter’s apprentice to pursue a career in carpentry. I have taken high school shop all the way through (my school offers both cabinetry/manufacturing and construction carpentry) and always done well in it.
When I mentioned to my parents that I was leaning towards a career in carpentry they did not react very positively. 24 hours a day they try and talk me out of it saying that I’m too smart to be slinging a hammer and that I should do what all people with my resume usually do… go to university, get a degree, and get behind a desk. I’ve been trying to tell them that they are just following sterotypes. They seem to believe that people choose carpentry as a career because they are not intellegent enough to pursue other careers. I do not believe that to be true but I have no way to convince them of that.
So here are some questions that I have:
1) Any ideas as to how I can convince them to look beyond the stereotype of skilled trades being a career path for people who do not accel academically?
2) Can anyone tell me how they find their career in carpenty? Working Environment? Co-workers? Salary? Room for promotion/advancement/additional training?
3) Best routes for apprentice training? Union? Community College?
4) Anything else you wish to add?
Thank you so much for taking the time to read this lengthy post and thank you to all who respond. I am also considering civil engineering as an options however it is much less attractive because it’s nowhere near as hands on.
Thanks!
Brian, Burlington Ontario Canada
Replies
Lets go on to college and get an enginerring degree. Work your summers in constuction , and maybe part time during the week. Construction is a good paying field for college types that are interrested. The best of both worlds . As a friend of mine would say ;
exellence is its own reward
You then have your choice of what you want to do from that. A very large construction company ? We are doing it out of need and love . You have a choice at the best of it .
Tim Mooney
Since I'm state-side......I can't tell ya how the career choices up there are.....a coupla guys around here should be able to fill you in on that.
All I can say is......I grew up remodeling with my Dad.....and he didn't want me swinging a hammer for a living either. Always said "Work with your head, not your hands".
Now, being a self-employeed small business owner.....he's proud that I followed him a bit and work with my hands daily...but also use my brain and sales skills by growning my business. He never would have considered reading a mag like FHb...now he calls to ask me about new products and methods.
I'd suggest finding some logic with your parents thinking....if having your own construction company is a long term goal......go to school now for that business degree that'll make the start up much easier...and give you better odds of lasting.
Try to find work as a carp in your time off school......combine the two as best you can.....but I'd focus on school at first.
I went back to school at 30 yrs old......when I decided to get back into remodeling full time...realised I'd have to expand my construction knowledge to offer a full service remodeling company...so I fould a good trade school and dedicated myself to it for 15 months. I did well as I had an extensive background in kitchen and bath remodeling..and knew what Q's to ask.
I'd say take the business courses.....get a little jobsite time under the belt.....decide than if trade school would speed ya up or slow ya down....and take it from there.
A thread on being a master carpenter said you had an appentice program available in Canada......that may combine the best of all.
Get educated before you jump in.....you'll be more valuable in the long run that way.
And when in doubt.....take a math class!
Jeff
..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
freefall:
I don't have all the answers, but I have been in a similar position to yours. I am nearly 30 and made a career change from economics to carpentry. My family thought I was crazy (and still do), I took a big pay cut, and my boss has to be the most impatient and degrading person I have ever met.
But not once have I regretted my decision. You have to do what makes you happy. You are the only one who lives your life. Don't be afraid to take a chance!
Yes, I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.
Mark
1) Any ideas as to how I can convince them to look beyond the stereotype of skilled trades being a career path for people who do not accel academically?
Convincing Mom and Dad of your career choice will never be easy. I doubt any advice I might supply would serve little, if any, good.
2) Can anyone tell me how they find their career in carpenty? Working Environment? Co-workers? Salary? Room for promotion/advancement/additional training?
I have been in residential construction for some 20 years. After working for others and learning eveything there is to know, I went out on my own. As a career...its perfect....for me anyway. I love the work I do and look forward to each new project with enthusiasm. Enviroment? Depends on what you mean. Obviously it can be quite hazardous as far as safety concerns. Working outdoors however cant be beat. Coworkers...crap shoot....Ive worked with some very talented intelligent people...I`ve also spent time with a few real losers. Salary...this aint the place to be if thats a major concern. Although other trades(plumbers, electricians) make some decent bucks, carpenters salaries arent all that great. Too many people willing to swing a hammer. After many years in the biz, I`m doing fine for myself...but its a long road before you can demand a good price. Advancement and the like is very possible if you hook up with a reputable contractor and make every effort to improve yourself.
3) Best routes for apprentice training? Union? Community College?
As mentioned, I`m in residential construction...round here the union work is all commercial. On the job training has always served me best. From my own experiences, the guys who took classes in construction/carpentry always seemed a step behind. Classrooms can only teach so much. Its not until you`re out in the feild and applying what youve learned do you realize what hands on really means.
4) Anything else you wish to add?
I would never attempt to talk you in nor out of going into this feild. I would however strongly urge you to spend a little time finding out if its truly right for you. Perhaps taking a year in the trenches with a local contractor before deciding this is it.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Your hired! You've restored my hope.......
Very good questions...........first, suck up as much education as you can. Getting a "job" as a carpenter is not a very tough accomplishment. Carpenters are hired and fired everday. If you aquire and hone good skills, you'll be in demand for as long as your body will hold out. So at some point, you'll wish to gain a higher profit which IMO = freedom.
So look around for the very finest builder in town. Where to look? Ask a banker. Ask him/her who they would have build a house for them. Go "interview " the buider and see if he's decent. Ask for a job for this summer. Bam! Your working constuction. Or find a crusty old Master and offer to sweep. In any event, you'll find a job. Now, if you wish to earn a wage and be told what to do for the next 25-30 years, join the Union and enjoy your life. A top drawer, journeyman commercial carpenter in a large city makes about $55.000.00, benefits, pension...........not bad. But if you wish to be the boss, direct your type of work and you have the means...........
For your future. If you have the opportunity, you'll want to continue your studies. Business or Engineering will enhance your opportunities. And if you loose a leg, (Yeah, it happens) you'll have something to fall back on. Most carpenters who run their own business are lousy businessmen. With a education in business, you'll have the training to direct your business, which in turn will direct the kind of work you'll do. If you add to that an education in engineering, well, the sky's the limit.
Look, you can always work, you can always find work, but if you wish to create the conditions that will improve your odds of success, load up on all the educational skills that will help you acheive your dreams long after you body says "Go home".
As Little Feat stated, -------"Well you know, that your over the hill, when your mind makes a promise that your body can't fill............old folks boogey........
Thanks for all the input so far. As I imagined the arguments for and against are almost balancing each other out.
I agree with you Mark about having to do what you love. My long term goal with carpentry would be to teach at the high school level and then operate my own small business to get me through the summer months doing renovations, decks, sheds, anything I can to get me by. (My shop teacher does something similar. Often after the last class of the day he heads out to a job site to earn some extra bucks).
Living in a middle class white suburbia most everyone around has rich mommies and daddies to help pay for their postsecondary education. I do not have this luxury. I do have some scholarship money but it won't be enough. In order for me to get a University education it will likely put me back $30,000 plus interest. And the thing with University is that it doesn't grantee a good salary or a good job in every case. My cousin got a Masters in Biology and has to wait tables because she can't find work.
I could expect to bring in $40,000 as a HS shop teacher, which isn't too shabby in my opinion and then anything I make over and above that will depend upon how successful a businessman I can be I guess.
I really understand where everyone is coming from with the encouragement to go to university and I really appreciate the input. But I'm not sure I can handle the debtload or will necessarily enjoy it like I know I enjoy carpentry.
I have also though about doing a University degree through night school or correspondence while doing my apprenticeship. Any opinions on that?
Thanks for all the continued help and suggestions. I may be thanking you all 100 times more 5 years from now.
Brian
Brian,
You don't have to spend goobs of money.......Your community college has all the business and engineering classes you need for the first 2 years. That alone will give you a great advantage over the rest of the mob.........And if doing your own thing is where it's at for you, then a degree isn't nearly as important as the content of the studies.
Very well put Mark thank you.
I have found a programme at George Brown College in Toronto (in Canada University and College imply two different things, University is theoretical and College is practical application). The programme is titled "Construction Building Management" and covers code, estimating, PR, marketing, and anything else you could think of. Perhaps if I got this (3 year Diploma) wile working carp jobs in my summers off I might get both ends of the deal? Opinions?
Thanks, this is going better than I had even hoped.
Brian
Brian,
I went through the white collar path -- worked as a mechanical engineer for a number of years. Now I'm self-employed as a residential contractor and much happier. As far as money goes, I'm actually making more than I did as an engineer -- but that's because I'm self-employed and don't work for a company that takes half of my fair-market value. I should add, too, that I don't have any employees. I just work by myself or partner up with people I know on bigger jobs. The point is that you can literally work in any arrangement that you like best -- just use your imagination.
Lots of people here are advising to go to college now, and you'll always have the education to fall back on. That makes a lot of sense (but couldn't you always be a carpenter now and a student later?). My university degree seems to earn some brownie points with a lot of people (i.e clients). Unfortunately, there's a great number of people out there who are going to judge you not by your abilities, but by your credentials.
Also, the advanced math and geometry that you'll get in an engineering curriculum will definitely be of help on the job site. It's amazing that these sort of problems literally come up on a daily basis.
Bottom line is, you should decide for yourself what it is that makes you happy.
Best of luck to you!
Ragnar
Edited 10/31/2002 1:00:56 AM ET by ragnar
I may be thanking you all 100 times more 5 years from now.
....then again, you may be cursing us!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Brian
I think that you will find that quite a few of the people here have college degrees, I do and I wouldn't trade that experience for anything, I also work in a field that I enjoy, that being woodworking.
You are young enough that you can do a lot of different things, unless you really hate school, and it doesn't sound like you do, college can help you in your search for what area you settle into.
If your parents are footing the bill than take advantage of it, it wont be there forever and it wont be as easy when you get older.
I think Tim M. hit on it, the school will be beneficial and you can work summer job as a carp. and find out what area you would like to concentrate on.
What ever you do best luck
Doug
jeesh, I wish I would have know what I wanted to do when I was 18, could have saved a lot of aggravation!
I once thought I wanted to be a carpenter. I enrolled in the apprenticeship program. Now, I was a bit on the light side. The foreman sent me to fetch some plywood sheets, 4x8'x3/4". Most of the crewmen just reached down and picked up the sheet by placing a hand on each side and walking along with it. Try that when you're 130 lbs and with wind gusts up to 30mph! So, I picked up the end and dragged it along the ground. Foreman says, "No good-- that beats up the ends and it will show up in the concrete." (Plywood was for forms.) So, carpenters need some size.
Then, too, so many times I went to nail a piece of wood, and the wood split! The wood was even talking to me! I quit while I was ahead. The man that got me the job was one of these supercarpenters. He could run jobs stone drunk. I thought they might just be keeping me on to keep this fellow happy. After I quit, however, the owner of the company asked the guy who got me the job, why I quit. "He didn't think he was earning his money," said my friend. The owner told him, "We'd have told him if we didn't think he was earning his money."
On the job, it seemed that there were tradesmen who did not like being there. This was Arizona and you might have to chase work all over the state to keep busy. (In those long ago days.) If you're out of work for any length of time, high wages won't mean much. My friend who got me the job also told me, "You don't want to be pounding too many nails after you're 45." We all think we're immortal when we're young!
I don't know where good carpenters come from. I do think attitude plays a part and I think your attitude might indicate a good future carpenter. If you have the financial resources and mental faculties to become a Civil Engineer, that's what I'd go for. You could always go for the carpentry after that. One thing about the building trades is that the sky's the limit, if you are truly good. Contractors will seek you out. You could even wind up in a corner office at FINE HOMEBUILDING MAGAZINE! :)
Edited 10/30/2002 11:59:38 PM ET by owlhoot
My .02 cents worth! The best of both worlds would be to have a College degree with a skilled trade for back up. College will give you the formal education to compete in our world. The skilled trade will give the means to make a living any where and always. Since I chose self employment many years ago, my skilled trades (Air Conditioning-Electrical Contractor) has been the means of my providing for my family. But my College education has allowed me to communicate on equal terms with my customers. Good luck!
You need to ask your self what do you want to be doing in ten to fifteen years. Do you want to be the person working in -20 degrees hopping the air nailer will keep working? Do you want to be the person getting 1/3 of the billing rate. Hopping the job dose not lay you off for two to three months every year.
Or do you want to be the one that is keeping 1/3 of the billing rate for say twenty to thirty employees and 10 percent of the materials? That is the question you need to ask your self..
If it is the second one it will be a lot easier if you have a good 4 year college education. In both architecture, engineering, and business. Business class should include sales. During the summer you should work for construction company. Where you can get some practical experience.
Free
First off I love your name.....nice choice bro! My politics may be a bit different but just a bit. I have two daughters. One that graduated Tufts and one that's 12 years old and into theater pretty heavily. what I told and tell them both is to follow our hearts Yet be wise. I personally at 51 and 27 years in my own renovation biz wouldn't have changed one thing EXCEPT.....I'd have loved someone to have encouraged me into taking biz courses. No matter what it is that you do biz courses will help you succeed.
Check out a book called "Jump Start your Brain by Doug........uhhhhhh.forget his last name.
Hey, school bored me to tears and I dropped out in my senior year and went to work as a builder (among starting A SCHOOL.....LONG STORY)with all the enthusiasm one might develop. totally focused on building. Building any damn thing. If its in your being to love something and its in your soul to develop it......and I mean reallyyyyyy love it then your home. Just be sure its whats runnin' through your veins. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. Your old enough now and intelligent enough from how your post sounds to think for yourself. Your young enough to try it out and see how it fits on you. To me.....personally.....theres not a thing on this earth I'd rather do then what I'm doing. BUILDING! Doesn't really matter how much money I make (and I'm doin' pretty damn good fer a high school drop out ) as much as it matters how happy I am at the end of my days when I look at the work I've done that week. Thats just me and my own thoughts. I go to sleep thinking about what my project will be when I wake up and when I wake up I cant wait to exicute it. (OKOK you dopes make a joke there....lol.Wideeeee open....ROFLOOOOO)
Carpentry work to me .........building.......tile..rock...roofing........ok ok maybe not roofing...lol.....all this stuff is the most rewarding field I might ever want to
experiance other then going into space (ok ok dopes once again....go fer it....oiy)
That's my humble opinion. Boy am I open fer jokes.
Secondly......Its your life now......Be respectful towards your parents yet its your life..Make it rich for you.....in your heart and soul.
Be well my brother
Namaste
Cant wait to see the jokes......wellllllllll someone needs to set em up so y'all can knock em down...lol
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I trained as a carpenter, things got tough for a while as the work dried up, so in one of those " It seemed like a good idea at the time " moments, I retrained. Clocked up a nice debt, and now............hate it. Wish I never did it. I now work carpentry 3 days a week and am fast approaching going full time again.
There are way worse jobs around. Some i know absolutely LOVE doing it. Some make really good money, others dont. It all depends on what you want out of it.
If you want to enjoy your life and do what makes you happy, go for it. If the money is high on the list, go for some sort of desk job.
I worked with an old guy who trained as an accountant, landed a good job, did it 4 months and left. He said he couldnt stand the boredom and the ''suit''. Never looked back.
Wood Hoon
You have described two paths open to you: you can commit to being a grunt for the rest of your life and be lucky to top out at $100K, or you can keep your options open and still go back to being a grunt if that's what you really want.
But keep in mind:
- doctors can always get a job, construction workers rise and fall with the economy.
- you like to work with your hands ? check-out orthopedics, or industrial design. Computer programming is virtually working with your hands (think about it).
- do you know what an airline pilot makes ? architect ?
- as construction gets more and more technology driven, only those with apropriate skills and knowledge will able to work on the good stuff.
- AT LAST GET ENOUGH EDUCATION TO BE BOSS !
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I got real mixed feelings about what to tell you. Around here, carpenters just don't make much. I don't consider it a career move at all, unless you're planning on going out on your own and setting up a construction company. But I also realize that varies a lot from one region to the next.
I guess I would lean towards the guys who suggest keeping you options open. I also liked working with my hands when I was younger, and never thought I could handle an office job. But that hasn't turned out to be the case.
I worked my way up from a labor type job to office work. And I think it's helped me out a great deal. There's nothing worse than a guy in the office cranking out paperwork for stuff he has no clue how to do himself.
So I guess what I'm thinking is what others have suggested - Go to college and get a degree, and work summers with construction crews. Even after you get a permenant job, you can dabble a little with side jobs like decks or whatever, as you see fit.
That will keep you open to options. If you have a degree, but want to be outside, you can change easily. Then you can go back to office work if you change your mind later. But go without the degree, and getting an office job will be difficult.
Best of luck, whatever you decide.
Psychiatrists say that mental illness affects one out of four people. Check three friends. If they're OK, you're it.
I have no idea how to start this...listen to all the good advice you can get. There is lots of it here. I think that some sort of schooling would be the best way to go, although I cannot say for sure. Myself, I only went for 6 months and quit.
but now maybe I can get some advise myself...
Like Freefall I am also considering going into capentry full-time, but my postion is slightly different. After dropping out of college, I joined the Army. While joining the military may have been one of the better things I've done, it did not lead me into a career that I was interested in. Upon my release I got a job, quit. Got another job, the place closed. A buddy of mine got me a part-time job with a builder he was working with. I liked it, even though I was just a monkey. I learned a little framing and then got laid-off.
After that I went to work for a real hack, I needed the money. He was good to me, BUT the only things I learned from him was what not to do. Mistreament of tools, horrible building practices, and a real bad habit of under-bidding every job he took. There was no convincing him that things could be done better, He's been doing it this way for 20 years! We went our seperate ways. I got another job, working in a powerplant. 50k a year, benefits, pension, the whole 9 yards. Quit after 6 months. Carpentry calls me.
Now in this time I have built a Small collection of decent tools, to include my own compresser (dewalt), framer (porter-cable), finish-gun (dewalt), Roofer (paslode), and a list of power and hand tools to long to list. However, with no capital and no real experience with an actual carpenter, I fear becoming the hack that I once worked for. My saving grace to this point has been magazines such as this one, and a few good books (Frame Constrution by Rob Thalon is outstanding).
Now comes the problem, Quality builders that are willing to pay a decent wage are rare in this area. I can do odd jobs and small remodels (and the occasional roof) for more money, but its not building quality housing. Any other ideas, short of moving, for a young man with not quite three years in the trade?
bill
freefall I am a wife of a builder/carpenter. Now there is a question I have for the gang here...if you are a GC can you be a builder and or a carpenter. That's another thread.
Lars has been in the business for 19 years. He has had his own company now for 16 years. He got his BS degree at a university here in North Carolina in industrial engineering, I believe. Lars landed in construction when he went down to Florida to work for the summer after he graduated. Went onto Denver from there heard at the time that construction help was needed. He NEVER actually worked for a company using his degree, BUT his degree has helped him so much in the field and in dealing with customers. The fact is I think that most that work construction either LOVE it or CAN"T find anything else. That may be only around here, but I know that some of the people that work construction only do it because there just aren't any other jobs. If you love construction and working with your hands remember that it will always be there. PLEASE consider going onto college. Four years will go by fast and you will be working on your skills as a carpenter in the meantime. It is a win win situation. I agree with checking into a smaller school or less expensive. If you can start at a junior college and then transfer to a bigger one that will save money. Let me just say this in closing I have seen so many people not get jobs because they didn't have a degree. I mean a degree in ANYTHING! You can have someone that has done the on the job training, but if someone comes in with a degree (even if it isn't exactly in the field) they can 9 times out of 10 get the job over someone with experience. Some here might not agree with me on that, but I have seen it time and time again. You sound like you have your act together and I am sure that you are going to be successful in whatever you do!Tamara
I did some research today and got all the information on the programme. This porgramme is unique to the GTA (greater Toronto area) because of the huge growth we are experiencing. Building in my neck of the woods (the Halton region) is expected to triple in the next ten years with over 50% of the construction workforce over the age of 40 (or is it 45) and ready to retire during that period. To me this seems like lots of work and lots of opportunities to find the work.
Here are the courses covered in the programme. Perhaps you guys with experience can give me anymore insight on other things I should try to learn. (courses, additional reading material) (I am going to make an effort to read everything suggested) From first glance this looks like an excellent programme to be and seems to be all inclusive as far as the aspects of the construction biz.
Semester 1
BLDG1025 BLDG1026 BLDG1041COMP1082GSCI1022COMM1007MATH1025
Site Development – Field PracticeHousing and Small Buildings – Wood FrameBuilding Industry PracticesComputer Skills and ApplicationsBuilding Science and the EnvironmentCollege EnglishMathematics for Technology
Semester 2
BLDG1013BLDG1042 BLDG1043GHUM1106COMM1113MATH1078
Zoning and Building RegulationsConstruction Theory – Methods, Materialsand Electronic PlansQuantity SurveyingHistory of ArchitectureProfessional Communications for CABTMathematics for Building Technology
Semester 3
BLDG1027BLDG2005BLDG2015BLDG2019BLDG2045
BLDG2046GNED
Structural Engineering – Timber DesignConstruction Business Management andField Surveying – Total StationQuantity Surveying and Estimating IIConstruction Site Management, Supervisionand InspectionMechanical and Electrical InstallationsGeneral Education Elective
Semester 4
BLDG2012BLDG2021BLDG2022BLDG2034BLDG3003BLDG3004COMM1035GNED
Building CodePlanning and SchedulingLaw and Construction ContractsStructural Engineering – Steel FrameConstruction Safety PracticesQuantity Surveying and EstimatingProfessional Communications IIGeneral Education Elective
Semester 5
BLDG3001BLDG3006BLDG3008BLDG3017BLDG3021COMM3006HRM3001
Building Science – EnclosureConstruction Project Management ISpecifications and DocumentationQuantity Surveying and Estimating IVStructures and Concrete EngineeringTechnical Thesis ILabour Relations and Human ResourceManagement
Semester 6
BLDG3009BLDG3010 BLDG3011BLDG3012BLDG3019BLDG3020COMM3007
Building Economics – Cost PlanningBuilding Economics – DevelopmentConstruction Law – Case StudiesProject AdministrationConstruction Project Management IIComputer Applied Construction PracticesTechnical Thesis II
The course runs 8 months of the year with May to Septemeber off, prime building season.
Glad to hear someone likes the name. I picked it because of one of my hobbies (I skydive, just started the past year and love it) and just because that's just the way life feels sometimes, it's a freefall to who knows where. Anyway, my thanks to all those who continue to lend their expertise and opinions. I am very greatful.
Brian
P.S. For the full scoop on the programme it can be found on the web @ http://www.gbrownc.on.ca/Marketing/FTCal/buildtech/T105.html
Edited 10/31/2002 1:35:36 PM ET by freefall
Freefall,
Do what your heart tells you.
For me as a kid I loved to draw and still do. But whenever I seen a show on building or seen someone building, It fascinated me. I remember whatching a show called Grizzly Adams when he built his cabin. That's when I knew I wanted to be a framer, at the time I didn't really know it was called Framer.
Well at 37 I am a Framing contractor and I love every second of it. I love, enjoy and take great pride at what I do for a living.
Some people say I'm crazy, the ones that say that are not happy at what they do and regret not doing what they like.
When I work on someones house I look at it as if it were my own. If you enjoy what you do even if it was for less money it makes your life so much easier.
I love to share my thoughts and teach someone or help someone that's why I'm here talking to you.
I have a 4 year old son, every time he sees a house or addition when where driving or on tv he says daddy did you build that?
I even get excited for someone elses projects, like Andy Clifford. He bought a 322 year old house. I'd love to see what he does on that. I'm happy for him.
For me this is a great buisness and I love it.
I'm sure you'll choose the right path.
Joe Carola
I would echo what others have said about education. It's a lot easier to go to school at your age than to try and go later in life which is what I did. Finally graduated in 2000 at age 47 from a state technical college after many years of swingin' a hammer......... wish I had done it 30 years ago. Life will make it a lot more difficult in later years to go back to school. Marraige, kids, keeping a roof over your head......... etc. Your plan sounds like a good one. I believe education combined with practical experience is the way to go. Education will give you options, especially if the mind is willing but the body isn't to being a carpenter. At the very least, it should help you build better. One other thing is to TAKE CARE OF YOUR HEALTH!! Work safe, if you don't there's a price to be paid later in life for not taking care of yourself. A slip could change your life forever. Good luck to you.
One of the things I did when I was your age, which I really enjoyed, was working with my friends, who had different specialties within the building trades. When I bid a job, I would check with a suitable friend to find out if they would be available to work on it. We typically split the money, first paying materials, then ourselves X dollars per hour, then splitting the rest somehow, say 60/40 if the expertise for the job is mine and I bid it, or maybe 40/60 if I bid it but the expertise needed was from the friend. There was an extended network of friends. I did solar systems and greenhouses, so my masonry friend was a regular, as was my plumbing friend. In this way the loneliness of working by yourself is reduced, and you get to learn from your friends too. The quality issue is a matter of faith in yourself. You can bid reasonably if you believe in your work and have standards. God bless!
Thank you for your reply...
Currently I have one such friend, and we do a similar split, whoever gets the job first,gets the 60%.
Phill.......I'm not gonna argue that there are better paying careers out there...
But Dr's...programmers....and pilots.....aren't the best examples of high paying/job security. Now that I think about it........I have lotsa friends....all in different fields.....most of whom have a job on the bubble.
Dr's take home get's lower for more hrs invested each and every year. HMO's and insurance companies drive many out of the profession......You think getting paid from a customer is hard......have a talk with my Chiro about insurance companies.
One of my best friends is a very experienced comp programmer that's been laid off for several months......his unemployment ran out, it's been so long...and the only serious offers have been for way less money then he was making...along with longer hours. The Comp Prog field ain't what it used to be.
And neither is being a pilot. I have a degree in Flight Tech......and still keep in touch with many guys that went on to work in the field. Lucky one is my best bud that workesfor a business charter company. Unlucky would be the USAirways guys that have been or are next to be laid off......even heard last week that a woman that's one of the top trainers at the simulator site has been getting hints that her job is in jeopardy.
Seems these days.....the only one safe is a good carpenter......not enough to go around.
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
Keep your options open. I'm a carp with some college and two kids 21 and 25. Oldest graduated with a graphics arts degree and is building sets for a catering company. Youngest is still in college and also working for a guitar maker. I think if you have the wherewithall to go to school and get a degree, y'oughta, then go and screw yer life up with a hammer <G> It's okay, I can fix it!
"then go and screw yer life up with a hammer "
You sound like my parents. Does the <G> at the end of it mean a joke? I don't know whether to take this as sarcasm or if you're making a serious statement. If it is a serious statement isn't it offensive to the very nature of this site?
Thank you for all continued responses.
Brian
Free
Just gonna say it one more time. Do what you love and do it well. Take tons of biz courses. With biz courses you can sell anything especially yourself doing what you love. Damn...during an experimental class in biz one year the teacher taught his students that you can even just sell a rock from your garden. They called them PET ROCKS and made a fortune. I remember that authors name name I spoke about in another post. DOUG HALL "Jump Start Your Brain". Great book. Theres more to carpentry/building then just swinging a hammer. There are so many facets to it all that I'm sure you'll find your niche within it. I mean look at the people at Taunton Press. Many of them were builders and now theyre spreading the info...so many things you can do with it all. Dont see it in a tunnel vision. Be open to other posibilities within it....be inventive and creative. Look at Frank Llyod and so many others....Look into Helen and Scott Nearing (Living The Good Life) Its the backbone of our world. I absolutly love and am proud of what I do.
Be well
Namaste'
andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yes, the G was for grin, Frefall. As you hang around here, you'll notice lots of tongue-in-cheek humor, or irony, and some people are helpful enough to give you little clues about how to interpret what they're saying.
On the other hand, sometimes they do outright just insult the hell out of each other and say Mean Stuff. You'll get a feel for it, eventually.
It's a good argument for taking more literature classes, so you become a more critical reader. There are definitely distinctive writing styles. (tongue in cheek)
Here's a topic we had recently, that you might be interested in reading. You might enjoy hearing about others' journeys in life and the twists and turns we all take and end up with good lives:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=23714.1
"Mr Robertson, your predecessor, an excellent librarian, savaged three people last week and had to be destroyed."--???
Edited 11/1/2002 9:19:31 AM ET by Theodora
Ok, I thought it must've sarcasm or something. After the way you wrote the rest of it it seemed out of character that you would end it with "then go and screw your life up". Sorry about the misunderstanding and thanks for the tread link.
Thanks all for continued responses.
Brian
Sorry Theodora, for some reason I thought your reply came from bucksnort (the guy who originally said it) which means in the previous post i made i was talking about him in 2nd person, not you.
Guess that'll teach me to pay more attention. Sorry
Thanks for explaining the <G> thing.
Brian
I'll agree that education is never wasted, but I don't agree with the concensus here that you should go to school for as long as you can now, with the ability to always "fall back" on carpentry. I think you could just as easilly start your career in carpentry now, while you're young and have the fire in your belly for it, and always "fall back" on formal schooling later.
I once heard a professor say "...my advice to anyone would be to go do whatever you enjoy doing until the lack of schooling stops you from doing it, then find the easiest, least painful way to get the required schooling, and get back to doing what you wanted to do in the first place...".
Follow your heart. If you think you want to be a carpenter, jump in. Many, many people think they'd like it, few stick it out long enough to get good at it. There's always room for one more.
Fact of the matter is though, you have to truly enjoy it, not just enjoy the idea of it. Carpentry is a profession. People who view it as a way to make money, a job, are the ones who burn out, or never really excell at it because they are in it for the wrong reasons. Honor your profession and your profession will honor you.
Brinkmann for president in '04
You sound like me at your age. My parents wanted me to be a lawyer, for Pete's sake. It took a couple of false starts after high school, but I eventually became a carpenter and then a builder. At 35, I was making good money and loved building, but my partner and I didn't see eye to eye and my back hurt far more regularly than it should have. I switched gears and became an editor at Fine Homebuilding, but man, I was lucky there. I don't have a college degree, but my boss took a chance on me anyway. Did I say lucky?
Get the degree, then do what you love. When did we start valuing the bean counters more than the bean makers anyway? Carpentry is an honorable profession. Don't let anybody tell you differently. And take care of your back. If you only took one piece of my advice, that would be the one I'd choose for you.
And don't forget to let us know what you decide. Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
If you're truly torn, go pound nails for a year.
You'll see what it's like on the job as a full-timer. You sound motivated, you sound intelligent, you sound consciencious. You sound like a guy I'd like to work with. I think you'll blend well with any crew, and I think you'll stand out amoungst most of your fellow workers.
If all goes well, you'll see the real world in's and out's of construction, and as a good employee, you should advance and be given increased responsibility. That responsibility may give you insight the "dark side" of construction...the bidding, scheduling and the monetary side.<g>
After a year you'll have a pocket full of cash. You'll have valuable first-hand experience in the trades. You'll have a book full of job contacts and a nice employment porfolio, whether that portfolio is actual pictures or just memories of jobs done. You'll have real world vs book world knowledge.
If you then want to continue in construction, pick your route. You can continue as a laborer and work up that way, or take classes, get your degree, and have that notch on your belt. If the school offers, can you work and take night courses, picking and choosing those that fit your needs?
It's a burden, but the money will be there, the practical knowledge learned on the job will compliment the book learnin', and you'll be able (maybe) to discuss all the theoretical BS taught in class with your co-workers and supervisors.
<<<<<<Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator>>>>>
Andy.....Thats really funny....former accidental moderator. ROLFOOO
I have a question for you though. Dont you get a new icon now instead of the gavel? Maybe one of those graduation hats with the tassel, specially in this thread which by the way is one of the best ones yet. Wouldn't ya say? And tell Bucky to stop scarin' newbies...LOL.....See ya soon
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Jimbo
APPLAUSE APPLAUSE!
Be well my brother
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
It was a joke, ok , a poor attempt at one, for which I am infamous in cyberspace...even though I am an "accidental carpenter," I love what I do.
While I told my kids to just get a degree, then do what you want, Jim Blodgett has a good point. I have a great guy working for me. 21, high school grad, had a free boat ride to UNC, passed it up to do carpentry...he went to the School of Hard Knocks instead, and he really likes being a trim carpenter . And, he's good at it. He's also worked his way up to $17.50/hr, and is usually worth it.
The world needs talented carps, but maybe you could think of the degree as the safety net, you know, just in case the carpentry thing doesn't work out ;-) (more cyber literary humor symbols) It's okay, I can fix it!
Freefallin,
Here's one more option, Get a real job with real pay and real benifits, buy an older home in pretty good shape and get your carpentry "fix" at home on the weekends. Set up a shop in the garage and go to it. Build what you want for yourself.
That way in twenty or thirty years when you retire your body wont be shot and you will have an actual retirement.
JMNSHO
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Bill I think i was in your shoes 4 years back 18 19 finishing high school wondering what i would DO for thew rest of my life my uncles were in to construction heavy equip) so i got an apprentice ship with an excellent framing carpenter in the city i live in anyway 4 years of framing customs built homes you can learn lot but do not forget your TICKET try your luck out u are just starting out but prepared work for larger companies or make your own some day i would never be able to sit at this machine all day good luck there is $$ money in custom homes and carpentry
BARR#1
freefall,
I am in the midst of doing what some have suggested. 3 years work experience during high school, then went to school. I will have a BS in Marketing in December. I have worked during both the school year (for myself) and the summer which has helped me develop both my carpentry skills and my business skills. I would whole-heartedly agree with those who recommend to get an education. There are so many benefits to it: Fall back plan, ability to relate to more educated clients, personal developement, getting training now that many people realize that they need to get later, etc.
If your parents balk at the education level of many carpenters, then fine. They are probably right. There are an awful lot of guys who are afraid of reading, writing and arithmetic. There are also alot of guys (you will find that most here are of this persuasion) who are just as smart or smarter than the average Joe, are very informed in many wide issues (trade, business, engineering, history, computers) and that's what you should strive to become.
One piece of advice I would have is to become a voracious reader. One can learn much without incurring a big expense. Subscribe to FH and JLC. Buy as many Taunton books as you can find. Get a carpentry textbook and learn everything in it. Much information can be garnered if you just are willing to read.
Doing what you love is a good consideration. As you can see, there's the guys here that have done this all their lives, and the guys that did something else and came back to it. The reason we're all here is satisfaction, and if this is what turns your crank and makes you want to get up out of bed in the am and go to work, by all means do it, but there's a lot to be said for the education. It doesn't have to equal a desk job. ANYTHING you learn can help you, and most of it will. You will have the opportunity to draw on things you learned in business, economics, math, writing, even art classes. Depth and breadth of knowlege only helps you be better at what you do and relate to the people you are doing it with & for. The best engineer I know took tech school classes to learn to be a machinist while he took University classes and got his Mechanical Engineering degree. He's a part time blacksmith, a decent woodworker - he got his hands and his head on the same page so he knows what goes in to making what he designs on his computer. How many of us wish the architect had spent summers framing? Your parents - they're trying to do the right thing and look out for you. We always want our kids to have it better. We want to steer them to the success that maybe passed us by in one facet or another, but the end result - if you're happy, they'll be on board. Would they be more proud if you were totally miserable as an MD, or if you were perpetually satisfied trimming houses?
What RW said ........... the most important thing of all. Long term- you gotta love what you do.
What a great thread. You all have generous spirits.
I can't disagree with a single thing here. And since I'm in the education/information world, of course I'm going to second all the opinions that say get as much education as you can now. It will probably never cost LESS to get more education, than it does now. You may have more access to financial aid now, coming out of high school as your parent's dependent, than you might get ten years from now. And it is easier to get the classes before you start a family. Or someone starts one for you. You mentioned you might like to teach down the road. The more exposure you have to various teaching styles and philosophies, the better choices you will develop as a teacher yourself. The self-discipline you develop pursuing a degree of a particular field of study will develop your critical thinking skills, your analytic abilities, your creativity, and communication skills regardless of what major you choose. I have never subscribed to the belief that a college or university education is supposed to prepare you for a job or career, necessarily. I know others disagree and I respect that opinion. I think the education is there to develop YOU--your mind, your heart, your place in the community, your spirit. But if you have an opportunity to take a course of study in something with a practical orientation that you are enthusiastic about, but that also gets you some general education type stuff that's just for developing you as a person, that's heaven for someone with your goals. And you are also young enough, though an adult now, to give yourself a chance to see what other things there are out there in the world that you might be interested in, that you just haven't run across yet. More education gives you that chance.
I agree with the consensus--get more education, and immerse yourself in all the real-world experinence in the field that you can find as well.
Best of luck. Life is an amazing and wonderful journey."Mr Robertson, your predecessor, an excellent librarian, savaged three people last week and had to be destroyed."--???
You have gotten lots of good advice regarding the desirability of a college education, and the good and bad points of carpentry as a career. My contribution, if it is one, relates to the manual labor issue. Don't sell it short, as your parents do. We are not so far from the jungle, and there are deep satisfactions for manual labor. I dropped out of grad school math to do manufacturing (and later building of various kinds) because the life of the mind is not enough for me. Don't sell the life of the mind short either. Building has rich possibilities on both fronts.
I was in much the same position as you 26 yrs ago. If you want to work in the trade, find someone who knows what their doing and ask them for a job. You'll learn more from an experienced tradesman about carpentry than you ever will in school, but you need that too. Do what you're told, work hard, if you find yourself with nothing to do clean up, look busy. Don't ask questions without thinking about them first. Avoid the Jack-Offs on the jobsite, they'll borrow every dime you own.
Gordsco, Calgary
Well actually what your parents are probably thinking is that you'll never make any money being a carpenter. Maybe they just need that notion removed as well, I just read an article in the local paper in which a local bulder was bemoaning that fact that there were no where near enough skilled trades people to be found, in response to one question he mentioned that most qualified people were making 6 figure salary because of the building boom going on here.
Now I'm not sure how long it takes to reach that level of compentency and renumeration, but consider the university route.
1. Pay for your tution via student loans.
2. Spend 4+ years getting your degree.
3. Perhaps spend another 2+ years 'apprenticing' at the low end of the pay scale if you decided to become a doctor, accountant, lawyer etc.
4. Get a job, start paying off your loans and start gaining the experience needed to make those big bucks everyone thinks those professions earn.
or
Go to work as an apprentice, make money right away and get your ticket before your would have graduated from University. Now you should be at a pay scale that it is going to take the university guy a while to catch.
An advantage to the second scenario is that you are employable pretty well anywhere in the country, you likely don't need to worry about local licensing, or differences in laws that make your experience as say, a lawyer not as transferable.
Just some ammunition, I don't think everyone needs to go to university to be successful, and lord knows we need trades people as well as accountants. And in all honesty I've met more white collar university graduates that didn't have a clue then blue collar workers, intelligence is the last thing that seems to affect what people decide to do for a living.
Besides, just how good a lawyer/doctor/engineer are you going to be if you hate the job?
Robert
I have been a carpenter for ten years, joined the union right out of high school. This career paid my way through college, I finished my college, university of illinois chicago, and apprenticeship in the same year. My parents were not happy with my decision to go into this field, they said many of the same things to me " you are too smart, etc...". I have often thought that I should use my degree and just as often I am glad with my choice. The only good advice I can give you is this; If you choose this career join the union for insurance, training and pension benefits. Until you are absolutley sure keep going to school, weekends,nights whatever it takes. As for your questions about the working conditions, yes it is fun in the summer but bitter cold in the winter. Good days out number the bad, you will be tired but also satisfied with what you create. I live in Chicago and make about 70k a year, with about another 5- 15k on the side. Now understand that is a lot of hustling for the side gigs. I am married and have one child, a house and my wife does not work and we live just fine . Good luck.
Brian,
Go to college and pursue a degree in engineering, forestry, whatever. My point is that at 18, you really don't know what you want to follow for a career... and you should not have to make that choice. Going to college not only provides you with education, knowledge and credentials that you will use at any point in your life, but it also gives you time to explore a range of other options.
Making a decision like this at this point in your life can have long lasting consequences that may not be easily undone. Carpentry, or any other skilled trade, is a fine way to make a living, but starting that at 18 is not going to give you any opportunities that you wouldn't have at 22.
Please allow me to bore you with my own history. I grabbed an opportunity to work as a union carpenter apprentice my last year of high school (the particular job was doing some renovations at a glass factory, the jobsite was operating 24 hours a day and I worked the graveyard shift and went to school during the day - made great money, at least I thought that at the time). I did go to college and mostly screwed around, continued to work through the carpenter apprenticeship on breaks and summers. At some point in my early 20's, I found the thing I was a natural at - technology. To make a long story short, I pursued technology and now am a private equity investor in technology startups. If I continued the trades route, I'd be getting up at 5am rain or shine, busting my #### all day long and coming home tired and worn out, maybe I would have a successful contracting business, maybe not. But instead, I get up early to check the markets, make some calls in the morning, read the Journal and head into the office at 9am, my schedule is my own and I am usually home by 4pm, I travel extensively, live in a beautiful home in an exclusive community, and at 36 years old, have financial freedom that my parents never dreamed of. I have had the opportunity to meet and do business with an amazing array of personalities, from political leaders to philantropists to storied business leaders, and they in turn have stimulated my own intellect to put my life in the direction I want it to go in, and to not have the track I am in define who I am.
My point in the above is simply to say that if I want to pursue a career in carpentry, I could... but if I was a carpenter, even with my own contracting business, I would not have had the experiences or opportunities that I have had and no opportunity to achieve them at this point.
Life is a 3 act play, you are in the first act and everything you have done to this point and will do for the next 15+ years prepares you for the second act. When you get to my age, you invariably get introspective about life and where it's going. It is in the 2nd act that you take everything you have learned in life and become a better person for yourself and the ones you care about. It's about making life exponentially more rewarding... emotionally, intellectually, financially, and spiritually. Don't make decisions today that you don't have to, decisions that have consequences far beyond what you can appreciate right now. Doing what you love is of paramount importance in life, but allow yourself the time and space to discover what you love and to enable you to pursue those things later in life that you will fall in love with.
Brian,
I hope you read this and that you can get your parents to read what I have to say also as this is as much for them as for you. You can go to the options button in your lower left of this message and choose to print this posting. My heart goes out to you because you have just described me about thirty-some years ago. I tested in the 97th percentile of intelligence ability with especially high scores in math and science so I was being herded into an engineering field and had indeed looked at civil engineering. Another of my intrests was in architecture.
My actual grades never lived up to my aptitudes tho' because I loved doing things with my hands and being creative. My heart was just not into spending all those years in school so I could earn more money. Money is great stuff, but not if you hate what you are doing. There are a number of studies I have read showing that those who truly love their work to the point that they have a fulfilling vocation instead of just a job will make more money than those who are well trained in a career that they later discover that they dislike.
I dropped out of college and went into construction, starting at the bottom of the ladder (Literally - I was carrying rolls of roofing paper up a ladder) and working my way up. I did it the hard way and have some physical ailments from the work that you could avoid by getting some education. Training at a community college, studying building science, classes in management or materials, CAD drafting and design are all endeavors that you can translate to good use in this field. Any associated training is of value and a degree is not always necessary but can add to job security, if not income.
I have added miscellaneous bits of training to my resume' along the way and currently earn about a third of my income in consultations and design work with specialty in remodeling, restoration, and renovations. I earn more than the average carpenter, and as much or more than some architects and engineers but less than others. I have never been unemployed in over thirty years for more than three days. This industry is suffering from a serious lack of skilled people with integrity. This one fact will raise the income and level of respect accorded to leaders in the field. One wonders whether your parents would rather live in a house built by an intelligent, honest, well trained carpenter such as you will become, or one built by a shyster who hires unskilled or semi-skilled immigrant labor without paying legal and moral insurances and taxes on them. If the choice they prefer is to have the former, quality builder, then it is an obvious conclusion that some intelligent persons must enter the field to recieve such training as you require to reach your goal.
I love the satisfaction I get from seeing the faces of my customers when they express how delighted they are with their home. It has been modeled around them, their desires, fantasies, hopes for the future, lifestyle and budget. Like a custom tailored suit of clothes, it fits!
Satisfaction like that cannot come from simply pursuing a career based on projected income, in my opinion.
I may have re-soled others comments above, because I have not yet read the thread through. Pardon me, if this is so. I go now to reading it all.
Excellence is its own reward!
and having now read it all through, I'd second the following thoughts,
Follow your heart
If you start swinging a hammer before you do the college thing, keep adding to your education as you go along
The course you mentioned looks like a great mix of courses and value for the money that can lead to job management positions where you could build some enormous headaches<G> or build you own company. Canada may have greater obstacles to that dream than the US, IMO because of the greater influence of socialism there.
You might look into taking an additional course or two in CAD programs. It appears that the Comp1082 is just an intro to computers, internet, datatbasing, etc that many high school kids have already tho' that one might deal with applications in building, such as estimation programs or client/contact management.
Love what you do, do what you love. Others will respect you for it.
And more importantly, You will respect yourself for it!
come back here often for help with your homework if you do enroll..
Excellence is its own reward!
come back here often for help with your homework if you do enroll.
Geez, Piff, I thought we wanted him to pass those courses!"Mr Robertson, your predecessor, an excellent librarian, savaged three people last week and had to be destroyed."--???
Giggle, Giggle
Grin, Grin,
Halloween sauce is makin' you spin...
LOL
Now look for you name heading a thread in a couple of minutes.
Excellence is its own reward!
Oh, please, oh, no, I'm gonna be gone this weekend, and I can't defend myself!!
Pleeeeeeeeeze pleeeze. I'm really a simple and blameless girl....."Mr Robertson, your predecessor, an excellent librarian, savaged three people last week and had to be destroyed."--???
Sorry, little gurl, it's too late!
;-)
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=24443.1.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Your allright!
Where were you when I was growing up without a father, he died when I was 5. Not saying your old enough to be my father ;-)
You give good advice. Growing up I was always listening to the way all my friends fathers would talk to them. I guess because I was missing and wanting that. My mother was both a mother & father, might sound funny but she did what she had to do to raise three kids by herself. She's a tough woman, don't mess with her ;-)
She offered me advice as much as she could have, but it probably wasn't the same as a father to a son.
Most of my friends tell me now at 37 they realize that they are their fathers, especially when it comes to their kids. they compare themselves to their fathers, like they will say my father use to do the same thing to me as I do to my sons.
I do with my son Joey what I think is right with all my Heart, I'll talk to him for hours even though he's only 4. He's a funny kid.
Last week where eating dinner and Joey gets up and walks away from the table, I thought he was going to the bathroom and he sits down on the couch. I said to him what are you doing? He said I'm watching TV. I said, come over here and sit down at the table with mommy and daddy and eat your dinner, this is family time we eat dinner together as a family, you don't get up and watch TV or play with your toys.
He turns and looks at me talking with his hands, 'Italian thing" and says to me "Dad the POINT is, is that my stomach hurts and I can't finish my dinner".
My wife and I started cracking up, I know where not supposed to do that but he caught me by surprise.
Maybe I am like my father, I don't know. But I always followed what my heart tells me to do, like I was telling Freefall, I love what I do and to make my customers and GC's happy that's what It's all about. Not only for them but for myself, If I can't do the job the right way I wont do it at all. I can go on all night but just a few thoughts.
Joe Carola
I suppose that biologically, I COULD be your father if I started out early enough. I am barely old enough to have been.
But it's just not so. I'm more German/Welsh/French. Except for the French part, I talk with my eyes and with words instead of my hands.
;-)
My Dad was one who was pushing for me to become an engineer. He kept pointing out that they made lots of money. He worked in a plant as a test technician and the engineers all worked upstairs from him. He watched them walk past him on the way to the coffee room everyday. He had the brains to be one of them but was saddled by his family responsibilities so he couldn't go on to further education. I think this was always a frustration in his life but he put his respoinsibilities first.
This is something that freefall should be hearing too. If he is unsure of what to do first, he should keep a sock on and keep the books open. Three kids to feed make it kind of hard to get back to school later on.
But one thing my Dad did say often enough for it to sinkl in was, "Be your own man, Son. Don't ever let them tell you how to think. Make your own decisions and then go for it."
That's about the way I've coached our kids. Follow your heart.
Joe, I'm suprised to hear you are as young as you are. The maturity you've displayed here and at JLC are beyond that of a 37 year old. That probably comes from having to grow up quicker with your Dad gone.
Deep breathe here...
This is all kind of hard for me to write. I was talking with my wife today about how so many - most - of my friends that I got close to were orphaned or from broken families where the dad was missing somehow. I think it's because of something in common, My father taught me a few good things but for the most part, he was AWOL as a father. Spent most of his time away from the job at the bar and when he did get home, he was abusive enough that I got to wishing he wasn't home. He drove us all (four brothers) away. He's dying right now as I write this. Stroke last winter leading to greater infirmities, congestive heart failure, kidneys crashing, etc.
His body is dying now, but as a father, he died many years ago and we already grieved that loss of relationship. Father's day has almost always been a depressing time of year for me.
So, Brian, you've done stepped into a big deep puddle when you start discussing parental relationships, careers, the future, and the past, here at Breaktime. You never know what Pandora's box you might open up - a little humour and a little depth. Hope you can swim in the deep end. The point that I'd make to you in the context of your question is this - While it is your decision, your future, and your life, you need to do it all in a way that doesn't destroy those good and needful relationships you have in your life. You won't know 'till it's over what value they have. You can disagree with your parents without being a disagreeable person.
Now go forth and make a life!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Your Father said, 'Be your own Man, Son. Don't ever let them tell you how to think.
I remember every thing about my father, even though I was only 5. My mother could never believe the things that I would remember and tell her about him.
My Fathers last words to me the day befor he died was, "Your going to be the Man of the house and you have to protect your mother and sisters for the rest of your life"
I would say that I deffinetly lived by those words and I'm glad he said those words to me.
I must admit that I was an angry kid growing up. I just wanted a Father and I guess I knew I couldn't have him back. I still see him in my dreams, I don't know what that means.
My sister was born in January of 1964, I was born Dec 12, 1964. Guess I wasn't planned ;-).
Unfortunately she had cancer at 14 and lived for a pretty rough 10 years and died at 24 in 1988.
Right after I got married I was told that I couldn't have kids. I never complained especially watching my sister suffering for 10 years. When I was told that I couldn't have kids I started complaining.
But needless to say It took me 7 years to have Joey the 3rd and he's mine thanks to INVITRO FERTLIZATION.
Growing up I was a fighter, I've seen the thread robbed at knife point. I have a million stories about fighting, I'm lucky I'm still alive. I don't fight in the street anymore. I will go back to training in a couple months. That's another story.
But I wasn't in my eyes the total man my father told me to be until the Second MY SON JOEY WAS BORN.
I wont waste one second with him and Protect him and my wife and be the father to him that I think my Father would have been to me.
Joe Carola
May God Bless You in doing it!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Framer
Your post made me think of that Neil young Tune..."Old Man" (Take a look at your life)
Nice post Framer!
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
My continued thanks to everyone for their help and opinions.
A few things I'd like to say and a few more questions I'd like to add:
1) Piffin, thanks for that long response and I will share it with my parents. I've never really heard Canada referred to as a socialist country but our politics are usually much more to the left than the States so in comparison I guess we are. I'm not quite sure where I personally sit on the political spectrum although likely I am to the left when I think about it. It's like Winston Churchill said
"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Since I'm under 30 I guess you can't really blame me for being more liberal.
I do intend to take more CAD courses (I've done a few in HS) as extra electives while in college.
2) Andy Clifford: I went to your website link only to find that I have seen it before. I don't know where or when, I think it was while I was doing a careers project for my shop class (had to find websites of people working in the carpentry field and tell about them). But anyway I had seen it before so that was kind of interesting I thought.
3) What about tools? I started buying tools last year because I figured that even if I didn't become a carpenter I could always use them when I move out. So far I have a a really good chisel set (bought that last year for the skills Olympics... I placed 4th out of 20 in the cabinetry division which I am proud of cuz I had the least experience of anyone there), a cheap hammer, good screwdriver set, all heads all sizes, Level, T-Bevel, T-Square, Rafter's Square.... I know I don't have all the tools I need yet and was wondering if you could recommend essential tools that I should have that I already don't.
4) (don't know why this started indenting) What would everyone recommend as a vehicle? I have given much thought to purchasing a light pickup (I need to buy a vehicle for transportation to and from school anyway) and I figured that a light pickup would be handy on the job site as well it would provide lots of storage space and transportation space for tools and materials. Opinions?
Thanks again everyone.
Brian
Freefall,
I have read all these posts and your situation is me to a "T"
Did good in high school, scored high on ACT's, started working construction in the summer, loved it, parents wanted me to go to college.
I went to college, got a degree. But every summer and winter break, I was back on the jobsite trying to learn, soaking it all in. Worked with some great guys and some boneheads. Long story short: I have definitely used the business and computer classes. I do know that the time spent on the site was the most valuable.
I would echo what the majority of the others have said.... Follow your heart....If your not happy, what's the use of a degree and a high salary.
As far as tools go:
Invest in quality handtools
Good hammer, chalkbox, speed square, utility knife, cat's paw, chisel (at least one nasty one for cutting nails, prying, scraping, etc.) good tape measure, you get the idea. Also get some comfortable, durable bags... Cheap ones wreck your back.
Get a circular saw (sidewinder or worm drive, whatever your preference)
Get a good cordless drill.
Get a sawzall
Also: 4' level, framing square, socket set,
You don't have to go out and buy all this stuff tonight, but when you have a couple of extra bucks.......In my part of the world, guys will pay more for hands with some tools.
I have a Toyota Tacoma. Too small to haul lots of lumber and tools but ecomonmical and efficient. It was my college vehicle as well....
Good luck.
Tools: don't buy from the bargain bin. The regrets I find most often are the times I don't follow my own rules and buy cheaps stuff "cause I'm only gonne use it this once." Cheap tools make for cheap work, and that makes for less return business.
Vehicles: can of worms. Trucks, SUV's, cargo vans, bread boxes, all are used. It mostly depends on what you gotta carry. Best advice I ever got from someone older than me regarding wheels "Drive your paycheck, not your ego." Second best advice "Trailer: when the truck's on the lift, the tools are at the job." I've got a six pack (1 ton crew cab etc etc) with the long box and I've gotten the school bus jokes and everything and all the stuff I cart around doesn't even fit in that most days. We need the storage of an 18 wheeler, the power supply of a shopping mall, the turning radius of a tricycle, the traction of a crawler, the road clearance of Big Foot, and the cost of a Yugo. Prioritise.
Brian,
Thanks for inspiring this discussion. I wanted to offer some practical advice.
I like many others here chose carpentry after the secondary school 'honors track', 4 yrs of college at a 'top ten' school, etc. I'm 27 now and most likely I'll do this as long as I physically can, because I love it, BUT:
Try to take an objective view of your situation; right now it seems to me that you could be railroading yourself into a very specific path at a young age. I feel that there can be a danger in the 'perfect set-up', like making the roster for the perfect team, where you map out your future in minute detail just for the security and safety that implies.
For some people this works great; in general they're very driven and goal-oriented, but part of the beauty of life for me is the diversity and variety of what you find along the way.
There are other educational options besides college. Cast your net further out; there are building schools, community colleges, etc. that offer short courses, 6 weeks, 3 months, 6 months. Look abroad, Europe, Central/South America. You can make money for these adventures in between the doing of them.
Something that might help you is to imagine yourself not as a builder, architect, engineer or whatever, but to think about how you want to live your life; how do you want to change the world; how do you want to help your neighbor and improve where you live; what your philosophy is and what that means. I hope that when you think about these questions you realize that it's not something you can answer with a short course on building science, or even a short course on philosophy, but by exploring different paths in a practical way until you find the answers for yourself.
best, GO
Just an added thought...I keep reading over and over...."do this kinda work as long as I'm able"....and words to that effect.......
I never had that line of thinking enter my head......
me Dad's now 73 yrs old......shorter than I am...bigger belly than I have.......and he's still doing remodeling. Granted.....it's for a guy even older than him...that's been a friend/customer for about 50yrs.......and his workday starts at about 10 and is over by 3......
But he still sets up and climbs a 28ft ladder when need be....and he's in the middle of a complete kitchen remodel right now...working by himself......
So let's not let this whole...when the body gives out BS slow anyone down.......just work smarter and come up with ways to keep the jobs running.
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
as far as trucks go, buy a small toyota and put a cap on it.
this will carry your tools for the time being, your freinds wont call you when its time to move them, and the boss wont expect you to be a Gopher.
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Jeff
Your Dad sounds pretty inspirational.
At 51 I realize the term "work smart, not hard" all to well now. NAturally it doesnt mean not to work hard but the key word is smart unlike in my earlier years when I'd hump 250 railroad ties up a hill to make a retaining wall. My knees are still paying for that one. Although I do have to say the wall still looks really beautiful with all wildlife growing around it now. That was 15 years ago.
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"We need the storage of an 18 wheeler, the power supply of a shopping mall, the turning radius of a tricycle, the traction of a crawler, the road clearance of Big Foot, and the cost of a Yugo. "
LMAO!!!! That part of the post was just too funny.
Thanks to everyone for their continued help.
I'm gonna read over all the posts again and see if there's anything else I should be mentioning.
Brian
Hey man, welcome to the ranks, and if you move bit further south, call me...) It's okay, I can fix it!
Message to your parents...
If everyone were brain surgeons, they would have to live and practice in caves.
A couple of guys that I know, who started off as lowly carpenters, now make over a 1/4 mil per year plus benefits working as forming superintendents.
The decision to become a carpenter is as noble as any profession as long as it is made with honesty.
Skip the civil engineering degree, it's a waste of time. A degree in structural engineering will give you the foundation to reach your goals.
Work the summers on sites, get your degree, finish off your carpentry apprenticeship working for a small company that will give you experience in the full range of carpentry, not just banging forms. Practice your craft for 5 more years and if you want to move up to management, call me so that your real training can start.
Gabe
Freefall.......I'd drop Gabe an email right now and get his contact info.........and send X-Mas cards yearly.....till that 5 yrs is up and ypu can call to talk terms.
Get the info......and don't lose it!
And if I could claim to know Gabe just a tiny bit.......don't call a day too soon thinking yer almost ready!
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
Brian,
If college is an option, and it sounds like it is, give a thought to a major in engineering, archetecture, construction management or even business. There is always time to be a carpenter, get your education FIRST!
As suggested by others, you could work in the trades during extended vacations. You would get the hands on training that you desire, also the money is typically much better than that of other entry-level (fast food type) jobs.
If, after graduation, you decide that you still want to "swing a hammer" for a living, you will be a much more valuable (intellegent, well-rounded, dedicated), employee, or contractor (in due time).
If you opt for a "professional" career, then you will be a very well balanced individual with hands on knowlege; invaluable. I have always been a firm believer that ALL architects, designers and engineers (the so-called "professionals") should be required to spend a two year apprenticeship in the field prior to recieving their degrees.
In response to your questions:
1) That's a toughie. Read above, I don't want my son to elect not to go to college either. If he decides to be a builder, that's great - but education is invaluable.
2) My career path in a nut shell. (AGE) 17 yrs - apprentice; 20 yrs - framing carpenter; 23 yrs - attend college at night for 4 years, while working full time to support young family; 25 yrs - foreman; 27 yrs - licensed general contractor; 29 yrs to present - commercial construction superintendent.
Money is a touchy subject. Suffice it to say that construction is not the most reliable field. It truly is feast or famine. I was always able to rent in nice areas, own decent vehicles and take care of my family. Once I moved into management - things got much better. My wife and I own our home (well, the bank does mostly) in Southern California ($$$$$$), we own two late model vehicles and have minimal debt. It's possible to make a good living in construction, however I had to move to management to do it.
3) I can only speak of my experience. I was lucky enough to get in with a good contractor when I started. He really took me under his wing to develope the skills that he saw below the surface.
Good luck Freefall. Let us know what you decided.
Mudd
All I can say is be careful of what you wish for.
I used my love of carpentry to build my tuition through high school and part of college. I loved it so much I didn't become a tradesman.
Now, I spend half my time at an unrelated desk job and the other half on building my own home and helping with friends and family (Habitat is soon on the list).
There is something about day to day stress that can ruin a love for anything. Remember, it's called work for a reason, not play. If you really love something, don't make it your career.
Oh, heck, I'm just full of it. Good luck and enjoy!
Reintaul
Day to day stress is something you have to deal with. Sounds to me that you may need to back up a bit and readjust your self. Dont keep going on in a direction where you bottle yourself up. My hobby and my work and my love and my direction has totally been to do with building and I always TOTALLY dedicated myself to it .heart soul and mind. Sounds to me that you havent. Sounds like yer skimming stones. Most important thing anyone can do with what they believe in is dedicate themselves to it. C'mon dude..kick yer self in the butt and find yer niche and DO IT! It really "IS" as simple as that. Just know your heart and mind and work it my brother.
Be well...work it hard
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM