caulking trim on 1938 brick house
jimscustomwoodworks
| Posted in General Discussion on
Hello to all, my wife bought this 1938 house b4 i met her & she had the windows caulked with silicone & now it is peeling off of the trim, & i need to remove it from the wood brickmold & the brick before repainting. It appears to me that there was never any there b4. do brick homes need to be caulked between the trim (brickmold) & the brick? i saw another older brick building recently & it hasn’t ever been caulked. Of course i am having trouble removing all the caulk from the brick but i wouldnt need to be quite so fussy if i don’t need to recaulk it. thanks again!
Replies
Silicone is not the right choice of caulk in that situation.
Caulking is serious business and a very important element in the preservation of the structure. Get yourself a quality exterior caulk and apply it according to the manufacturers recomendations. Paint the windows first, caulk second with a stretchy type caulk that isn't affected by the sun's rays. Don't try to get away with too small of a bead because it won't stretch...it'll tear.
thanks for your reply, but why do i paint & then caulk? i thought i would be better off caulking to the wood & then painting over it. the reason I am dealing with the caulk issue here is that the caulk was applied over the paint & now the paint let loose where the caulk is.
Most people view caulk as some sort of pre-paint filler material to make the paint job look better and fill voids that would be unsightly, as well as capture water. Essentially, they are treating it as a spackling material. The way we treated caulk back in MI (Macomb/Oakland region) was to bridge the difference between two surfaces that were likely to move at different rates due to thermal expansion/contraction properties. I think the best typical scenario would be a wood window set in a a wall and surrounded by brick. Typcially, the window manufacturers require a significant space for clearance and to provide the proper sized bead of a flexible caulk. Most of the window specs I remember required a 3/16" gap between the window and the masonry. Lets explore what happens if the caulk in on the outside or inside. On the outside: The window is painted and the latex creates a skin that bonds to the primer/sealer coat. The latex skin works fine as a water repellent provided the water is running off, and not allowed to pool and sit. That's why the slope the sills. Anways, after paint, the caulkers come along with a generous bead of flexible caulk specifically formulated to bond to the brick and paint. When the inevitable thermal movement occurs, the thick bead stretches but doen't tear. It remains bonded to both the paint skin and the brick.On the inside: The caulk is installed to fill the gap. The painter paints over the window and brick at the same time. The first problem: how do you seal the edge of the paint skin? Where exactly does the paint end? Does it lap onto the brick? Does that allow water to get behind it then? The next problem is the movement. Will the paint skin stretch enough and stay seated? Will it stretch too much and split? When that water gets behind the paint skin, for any reason, the main line of defense of the wood is broken. Under the skin, the damage is occurring.
I agree with the second guy, but good luck getting the old silicone off, and getting anything new to stick to where it was. I like Lexel and it will stick to where the silicone was. There is also a product you can buy to remove old silicone, but on brick I imagine it will be a chore. Maybe used along with a wire brush? In the old days, butyl caulk was often used and is probably still available, but it is nasty and always remains tacky (gooey).
First - most people don't understand that brick isn't waterproof. Especially brick vaneer. You need to give any water that seeps in some way to get out.
That said, yes, the brick to brickmold interface needs to be caulked to prevent another big leak. First though I'd say there needs to be weep holes at the bottom of the wall, and ideally at the lintels above the openings too. If not, I'd caulk only the top and the sides - hopefully allowing the water to get out the bottom. Also, no caulk will stick to flaking paint.
OTOH, from 1938 it could likely be a solid masonry house (no studs). Even so, I'd still say caulk.
And, Yea.... silicone isn't a good choice for exterior - IMO. First it isn't paintable... Ok - most is not paintable. It always yellows and collects dirt and degrades over time. Really though, at least with new construction, silicone is easier to get off than most caulks. You can cut out most of it and then actually rub it off with your fingers. It seems that HVAC guys and electricians think it's good. I have yet to meet one that knows how to apply caulk neatly. I like a caulk called OSI Quad for exterior stuff. Comes in clear and white. I'd use clear for a brick interface. Hate to say it but I'm not even sure of what it is made of - polyurethane I suspect. Here, they sell it at Blowes. Eiither that or just polyurethane caulk. Neither is particularly easy to apply. Especially if it is cold outside.
To learn more check out this web site. Brick Institute of America technical notes. It will keep you busy for a while...
Edited 8/31/2008 8:10 pm ET by Matt
Yer gonna love this. The place I am restoring at this time is circa 1915, and that caulk between brick and wood is Bee's Wax and Oakum. Talk about nasty to remove.
Lexel will adhere to silicone, but I'd still try to get as much as I could of the old stuff off. I doubt the caulk remover (liquid) will do much on brick, just have to try a wire wheel in an angle grinder ( thats what helps with the paint on this place I am working on) and pray for the best.
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thanks again for all the replies, i have been dealing with this issue for a summer now & am making little progress. i have tried every product i could find, including what i started with, a wire wheel on a grinder. the brick is very rough & i dont think i will have much luck getting it all off enough to be able to get any thing to stick again. I have tried the Lexel product before in a different application but it seems to remain forever sticky, attracting any dirt or debris, which means it is not an option, (unless i can paint it?). i still cannot belive that these windows have ever been caulked before this silicone was applied, unless what was used couldve been removed with no trace.
Paint the Lexel. That's why you put it over the unpaintable silicone to begin with.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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i always caulk between the brick molding and the brick[stone, block, etcetera]...silicone is the wrong choice but may have saved the molding and sill in any event. remove it all by way of whichever tools you have at hand. usually a combination and plenty of finger work...those blue latex palmed gloves are perfect to protect your hands as you work plus i rub the heel of the palm along the brick molding and it will roll up much of the remnants that defy hand tools. an old wash cloth[dunked andwrung out often and a bucket of warm water really cleans the surface dirt and removes remnants of the silicone...don't be afraid to rub] when the silicone is removed, you sand the moulding[100 grit is a good choice] then dust off the wood and a final wipe w/ a well wrung out old face cloth...let it air dry and proceed...the space between the molding and brick may need a quality backer rod to fill a void, bridge a gap and provide a stop so your caulk doesn't disappear into a black hole. i have used siliconized acrylic clear caulk by DAP. it goes on white and turns clear when it is cured. when clear it's ready to prime and top coat....if it stays milky i would investigate the area for trapped moisture or moisture incusion, so find that problem! i also don't worry about being generous w/ the caulk around the brickwork. when i prime i cut my paint line TO the brickwork.... the little bit of unpainted clear caulk [1/4 inch] that is worked into the brick texture beyond the paint line may appear reflective, BUT it picks up atmospheric dirt quickly and just disappears in its transition to raw brick. remember to cut the caulk tube nozzle to an angle that gives you good controll...i have a couple of size cuts going and just switch tubes as needed. a old face cloth w/ a small bucket of warm clear water helps keep the nozzles clean, putty knives clean, and fingers wet to smooth out a bead[always done before the caulk skins] careful work will produce a sharp, sealed barrier to the elements for many years. good luck
i always caulk between the brick molding and the brick[stone, block, etcetera]...silicone is the wrong choice but may have saved the molding and sill in any event. remove it all by way of whichever tools you have at hand. usually a combination and plenty of finger work..those blue latex palmed gloves are perfect to protect your hands as you work plus i rub the heel of the palm along the brick molding and it will roll up much of the remnants that defy hand tools. an old wash cloth[dunked andwrung out often and a bucket of warm water really cleans the surface dirt and removes remnants of the silicone...don't be afraid to rub] when the silicone is removed, you sand the moulding[100 grit is a good choice] then dust off the wood and a final wipe w/ a well wrung out old face cloth...let it air dry and proceed...the space between the molding and brick may need a quality backer rod to fill a void, bridge a gap and provide a stop so your caulk doesn't disappear into a black hole. i have used siliconized acrylic clear caulk by DAP. it goes on white and turns clear when it is cured. when clear it's ready to prime and top coat....if it stays milky i would investigate the area for trapped moisture or moisture incusion, so find that problem! i also don't worry about being generous w/ the caulk around the brickwork. when i prime i cut my paint line TO the brickwork.... the little bit of unpainted clear caulk [1/4 inch] that is worked into the brick texture beyond the paint line may appear reflective, BUT it picks up atmospheric dirt quickly and just disappears in its transition to raw brick. remember to cut the caulk tube nozzle to an angle that gives you good controll...i have a couple of size cuts going and just switch tubes as needed. a old face cloth w/ a small bucket of warm clear water helps keep the nozzles clean, putty knives clean, and fingers wet to smooth out a bead[always done before the caulk skins] careful work will produce a sharp, sealed barrier to the elements for many years. good luckEdited 9/1/2008 8:34 pm by Jim_Allen
Edited 9/1/2008 8:34 pm by Jim_Allen
Jim,
I have found the MultiMaster with a carbide rasp useful for removing the neutral cure silicone that I am using from concrete block. It would probably work well with brick, too. (I'll find out soon.) If you can make a kerf for minimum 1/4" backer rod, that would be ideal.
Steve
thanx to you both, it is obvious that you put in a lot of work to generate the posts. some one else recommended Lexel & i have tried that, & it seems to be the answer to the problem. i cut away as much as i could from the brick & then all of it from the wood trim & then applied the Lexel, it seems to stick to the silicone remnants on the brick, i am letting it cure according to the instructions 2 weeks & then will paint. I have experimented with 2 windows, i have a lot more to go & once all are done, i hope it is the last time i have to deal with it for a longgggg time...