Hi guys,
I’m a new member. It seems like a great site. I’m looking at a job where the condo owner is getting a lot of sound coming through the floor of the unit above her. Has anyone had positive results with a problem like this? If so could you let me know how you delt with it.
Thanks
Dave
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Welcome aboard - it IS a great forum!
There have been several threads discussing this that you could search for under "Sound transmission" plus Ceiling or floor, or similar terms. Use the advanced search.
Anyway - to the basics of sound insulation - solids carry those vibrations better than air spaces, so isolation is one technique that helps. Here in New England, we often run strapping ( furring strips perpendicular to the joists at 16" OC. Then the sheetrock. This strengthens a floor system and isolates the ceiling surface material from the solid joists and floor above. Others do the same with metal hat track to hang the ceiling SR from.
Mass will absorb sound waves also. It is common to see a double layer of 5/8" SR to absorb some of the sound.
Needless to say - but this adds to the load the joists bear which should be considered. Some fire codes have an opinion on the hat track or strapping to consider.
There is also a decoupling membrane used in a floor system. A special rubber mat is applied in conjunction with a floor above the joists. I am not familiar enough with it to comment on its effectiveness, but the first two do help.
Another consideration is foam insulation. Every house I have had insulated with sprayed in place foam insulation has earned praise for being extremely quiet. I see no reason why it would not help also - to spray to the underside of the floor while the ceiling is openned up.
But a word of caution - make no promises to the landlord re effectiveness. This is a very subjective area to try and please please in.
And if he is looking for cheap or non-invasive, he needs to look elsewhere. Soundproofing is not cheap even when planned into a new building.
Good luck and don't be a stranger.
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I see no one has mentioned resilient channel. Its very similar to hat channel but with only one attaching point and with openings punched in the projecting leg. Works well.
Hadn't heard of it before.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
check this link http://truesoundcontrol.com/products/RC824.html?gclid=CIqZhaXT3ZACFQ2nGgodTCH8Wg
Piffin has really covered all the bases. I would just add:
Try and find out what the existing floor / ceiling assembly is - perhaps by getting the building plans. What sound mitigation features are there already will help you determine what to add to improve things.
To improve the assembly in any meaningful way, it is very likely you will have to remove the drywall on the ceiling. The client needs to know this will cause a significant disruption of their living space.
Don't forget the ceiling forms part of a fire separation and any changes you make must maintain the required fire rating.
I doubt I covered everything. This is a wide open field AS LONG AS THE CLIENT OPENS HIS POCKETBOOK."What sound mitigation features are there already"I assumed nothing there already. I could be wrong"it is very likely you will have to remove the drywall on the ceiling."The simplest and cheapest would be to run strapping over the existing sheetrock ceiling, then a double ply of rock on that, but that makes for quite a load that would require some engineering calcs re the joists above and fastening schedule. Otherwise one might be reaading in the newspaper about a ceiling that collapsed on some kid opening presents near his Christmas tree next yeaar this time
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There is no sound mitigation. The space is a 12' x 16' bedroom. Hardwood floors above without carpet.
as many have posted you need to "decouple" from the floor above or add mass to absorb the sound...
i didn't see the construction type... but if they have hardwood above... i'm going to guess it's some type wood joist system...
so some things to look for...
sound leaks just like air or water... so look for holes... light fixtures... hvac duct work... any penitrations in the ceiling... will leak...
now... if you have a full flat 12x16ft ceiling with zero holes... no junction boxes... no air registers ect... you basicly have the bottom side of a drum...
the most cost effective and maybe the best you can do... is to float another ceiling below the current one... the sr channel (one legged with holes) is an ok choice but... i think someone posted a system that allows you to hang a SR ceiling... i don't know how much ceiling height you have... but it's pretty easy to lose 3-4" with some systems... with the channel you will give up about an inch total... but what you don't want to do is connect or let the new sheet rock touch the walls... you need to use a 1/2" foam gasket all the way around to seal the gap... you can then run trim to hide this gasket... but again... the trim needs to attach to the walls and NOT touch the ceiling... the best choice if you have the ceiling height is to use the system where the ceiling is hanging and free floating vs use'n the channel which still will transmit some...
p
The problem with leaving the existing ceiling and applying res. bar and more drywall, is that the air space between the two acts as a drum. Tests show it is less effective than another layer of drywall without the space. I don't think you can do much to decouple the ceiling without removing the existing drywall.
On the hanging system I used, we did just that, the perimeter gasket detail. When you opened the door fast, the air pressure would make the whole ceiling move like a big diaphragm, was pretty cool actually.
TrimTek sells a gasketed SR trim that would work in that application. Takes paint, too.
Considering the stacks of drywall set flat in the center of the largest rooms during that phase of construction, I doubt an extra 2 layers spread over the entire under surface would cause much deflection.
Gord
In genral I would agree, but when a 'condo' is built with no consideration for sound whatsoever, I know they were not trying to spend much doing it right - just the minimum to get inspected.
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Read this;
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/education/index.asp
http://www.soundproofing101.com/index.htm
http://www.soundproofing.org/index.html
you should separate the hat track from the joists with pieces of homeosote plus
insulate the open bays with fiberglass batts. nobodys going to come in and spray
foam in such a small space.be real
How do you know how small the space is?True, there are insualtors who don't want to or who have a minimum fee, but there are plenty who will do it.
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RH Foam will also sell you a kit using small cannisters of foam just for such small jobs. DIY for general contractors!
fiberglass insulation doesnt help with noise control, especially when it comes to foot trafic from above..
ravz
If some conditions are met, fiberglass insulation can help a lot to reduce sound transmission through a wall or floor.
The conditions all have to do with reducing sound transmission through solidly coupled materials. If you can do that, using some of the techniques already mentioned here, then sound transmitted through the air space is more significant. Then, added glass insulation will absorb quite a lot of sound. Think of how the sound in a space is more muffled after you insulate before the drywall goes on.
It doesn't have to be continuous or installed with very much care, either.
Ron
Thanks for all your input I'll let you know how things go.
Here's something that migh be of interest.
http://quietsolution.com/
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See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Thanks Ted I sent an e-mail out to them and am waiting to here back.
I heard back from quite solutions. They have a product called quite rock 530 which seems like it might do th job combined with RC channel. I gave the client the price. I'll see what happens. Thanks
Hi SplitOak,
I haven't had need for any sound control, so no opportunity to try out their products. However, I'd really be interested in how this turns out. My make-shift basement work shop is below an apartment and I'm considering doing some sound proofing so I can run machines at night. So whatever solution you end up using, I for one would be really interested in how it works out. So make sure and let us know, okay?
Thanks in advance, Ted--------------------------------------------------------
For a good time, visit MyToolbox.net See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
I have just been looking for sound board, and I ran across this particular brand:
http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=1071
It is Georgia-Pacific Hushboard.
The specs say it can be used on ceilings and walls.
I was looking for something to use on a double studded wall for between two office suites.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
I have done a few jobs that had acoustic isolation criteria and from my experience, insulation does very little, especially for footfall noise from above. The ceiling construction also dictates what method you can employ. Is it a concrete slab or wood frame floor.
One product and technique I used with fairly good success(for a rather neurotic musician in a New York loft) was suspending a SR ceiling using hangers made by this company: http://www.kineticsnoise.com/products.html).
We had tried a few different attempts and none satisfied the client until this one. This was in a bedroom of similar dimensions to your project.
Also on a large commercial project I am presently working on, we have employed an acoustical consultant. The recommendations to mitigate IIC noise (Impact isolation class, read: footfalls) is by utilizing an isolation mat beneath the finish floor in the unit above. This probably won't help your situation though. Good luck.
You can have a retro install of blown in cellulose. Circular holes cut into drywall to blow in the cellulose then close in the holes and refinish the patches. average room shouldn't run more than a thousand or less inclusive all steps start to completion.
Virginbuild
that is pretty minimal for the cost. I know somebody who did that and later had a terrible problem when they tore the ceilings down to do this right. Working under cellulose is no fun as it comes down.cellulose or FG only absorbs sound waves passing through the open air space, but most sound waves moving through a floor assembly do so via the solid materials, so isolation does far more than insulation.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi Piffin,
You are correct! I presumed that it would be understood that not all the sound would be attenuated. I had an experience a few months back, without and with, cellulose worked into the joist bays and there was a really significant reduction in transmission however it certainly did not eliminate it. Most significant was the reduction in reverberations, or drumming effect of created sound in the living space above. It is the best way I can think of to make the extraneous sounds more tolerable without totally ripping out the ceiling and going for isolation engineering and BIG bucks. I always say everything is a compromise of some sort in this imperfect world.
Anyway, Happy New Year to all.
Regards,
Virginbuild
Cellulose or fiberglass batts will not help in reducing noise transmission.
Maybe if you only install an inch or two. I used 10 inches and it does a lot of reduction.
Virginbuild
You did not indicate what kind of noise that it is.
Noise/voicce or impact (footsteps).
There is a rating system, STC (sound transmission control) to conpare different amounts of sound attenuation.
But because of condo's they have found that that does not cover impact noise.
So they came up with a separate impact ratings, IIC.
A google on - ceiling assemblies STC IIC- will give you lots of information.
But if the problem is impact noise you might want to check the condo documents. It is not unknow that they limit the type of floor covering that can be used and/or require isolation to be installed if a hard floor is used to replace carpeting.
So it might be that the upstair neighbor needs to do the fix.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I had the enlightening opportunity to work on a world-class (spare no expenses) recording studio. A couple of the design goals were to decouple the sound source from the studio and to make every element so heavy that it's resonant frequency was so low it made no difference. This is the same as has been described here before. The ceiling can be decoupled several different ways. By using the spray foam on the ceiling ST it is effectively made more massive This won't be easy unless you have a foam installer in your area that will do retro cavity-fills. If you do, it may be the cheapest and easiest thing to do. I would. We have a couple guys in this area that can get foam anywhere. One claims he can get foam between the IRS and my money. I'm waiting for April on that one.