The ceiling is should be up shortly and before I send back the scaffolding I should finish it off. I refuse to do a typical popcorn/ spackeled ceiling for three reasons.
1 Light.
I need to “throw” light up now over 20 feet from the top plate and I’m afraid that popcorn ceilings would absorb too much light so that by the time it reaches into the peak it will no-longer be light (or even dim) it will be dark.
2. Cleaning!
Cob webs and dust would be much more visable on a textured ceiling then on a smoother ceiling. From the peak to the floor it’s like 28 feet so I would like to make it as easy as possible to avoid the long ladder and dust mop problem…..
3. Design consideration..
It seems a shame to do something so differant only to use the typical to finish it off with.
I originally thought about using wood but the light problem has me baffled.
Any suggestions?
Replies
I have had great luck with T & G aspen. Sealed with a water based poly or sprayed with lacquer it darkens very little and makes for a very impressive vaulted ceiling. It goes up quick with a finish gun and is not very expensive. you can even pre-seal it.
Ditto the T&G aspen, though as opposed to a clear finish, we use a very pale grey transparent stain. It's a nice rich look (clear is fine, but somerimes a bit too rustic), and it reflects light quite well.
The biilard room is done in Eastern white pine and already it's starting to yellow.
It went up very white and seemed very nice yet less than ayear later it's like old knotty pine. To lighten it I've decided to "pickle" it. Still not quite formal enough for a great room.
I considered Aspen, basswood and evan Birch but choose not to for several reasons.
First is the problem of light. When you wash the ceiling with a spot light any unevan boards just glare at you so the natural tendancy is to bevel the edge of them. That leaves a dark strip at each board that gets progressively darker as you go up. (remember I've got to "throw" light 20 feet from the top plate and I'd rather not use giant bulbs to do it)
Second is any wood will darken with age. Basswood seems to stay the lightest and Yet after one year in a mostly darkened room there is definate yellowing on that. Aspen was a full shade darker, actually darker than the Eastern white pine I selected for the billard room.
I found some Norway pine that seems a shade or two lighter but the test strip I put up still gets too dark by the time it reaches the peak 28 feet above the floor.
FWIW, I've been wrestling with this same problem. I've come to the conclusion that the design of the lighting has as much to do with "brightness" of the room as does the surfaces it reflects off of.
I'd strongly suggest that you arrange lights that strike the ceiling from a variety of angles. This will all but eliminate the shadow problems you alluded to.
Also, if you don't like the yellow look of wood, you could de-emphasize that by choosing a "cool" light source. (maybe halogen?) Most lights are designed to make human skin look healthy. These "warm" lights accomplish that by emphasizing the lower end of the light spectrum - red/orange/yellow. Cooler light sources are more blue. This might make a wood ceiling look brighter and more formal.
The sponge-painting idea sounds interesting, but labor-intensive. My wife and I sponge-painted one wall, maybe 18' long and 9' high, that took us most of a Saturday to complete. Of course, we were complete rookies at this. Still, I would think that it would take quite a while to do an entire ceiling. I can imagine the effect could be very pleasing though.
How are the SIP's going?"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Progress on the sips (or lack of) is the reason I'm askin' about this. A little distraction to the fact that the snow last night was still around at noon and it's gettin' cold!
As for lighting, that is a ton harder on a timber frame then a stick built. part of it is because while it's no big deal to run romex thru a 2x4 and cut a hole into some sheetrock. When you need to run a wire into a timber you are talking about a whole 'nuther problem. The wire chases in the sips never seem to be where I want them, and while I have this really cool grove cutter that will run a chase for a wire in a timber as fast as you can push a skil saw, I still want to consider the long term affects of everything.
For example while the local code requires all electrical wire to be in armored cable or conduit, I need to use aluminum armored cable rather than steel so there isn't a reaction between the acid in the Oak and the steel cables.
That limits the number of wires that I can put into the tube....
Each "bent" is 4 foot wide so I can only wash the wall from a 42 inch area on the top plate which really cuts down on the angles available. Since the truss timbers are 6"x9" There will be heavy shadowing. I orginally was going to hang lights from the roof peak but the electrical box took up too much space. In addition I couldn't see how to avoid glare from a light shining down. As it is I'll use a 60 watt halogen spot pointed up to wash the ceiling and one pointed across the great room.
The problem of sponge painting being labor intensive doesn't seem overwhelming compared to building a timber frame from scratch... (besides my wife knows better than to trust me with a paint brush)
From what I've read, SIP joints that occur over a timber are not joined with a spline. Each SIP is attached to the timber and a 1/2 - 3/4" gap is left between the panels. Rough wiring is run in these gaps. (Actually, the rough wiring is run along the timbers before the panels are installed.) When you're ready to seal it all up, you use expanding foam to close all the gaps. Since you haven't finished your roof SIP's, there's still time to do this type of wiring. This would allow you to run wiring up the side of the bent with minimal removal of wood.
Even if you light only from the top plate, you could help yourself by directing some lights across the room to the far side. Assuming you don't have hammerbeam trusses, you could also put some lights in the midspan of the main beams.
Everyone has their own ideas about things. It's just my opinion that big, dark shadows in such a tall ceiling would look a little creepy. I think it'll look more inviting if you can eliminate most of the shadows with some additional lights further up the frame, provided you can get the wiring worked out.
I agree with you concerning lights at the roof peak. Lights reflecting off the timbers/ceiling would be far more pleasent than light shooting straight down.
Are all of your bents on 4-foot centers? My current design has some posts within the bents that are 6 feet apart. I've been concerned that this might be too tight in areas where people walk between those posts. I'd be curious how your frame "feels"."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
please reread about that method of joining SIPs. I'm certain that it would be doomed to failure.
Think about the SIPs as a Giant ballon, filled with hot moist air. The natural pressure will tend to force warm moist air up between any gap in the SIP inducing a decaying mechanism.
It is very important that the SIPs be vapor tight. In addition to a 6 mil poly barrier, AFM requires that the joint be sealed with an adhesive (they call it Do-all we call it elephant snot) Splines are inserted and Do-alled then nailed together. Then they are screwed to the timbers. The reason for the Care is the great pressure a house heated to 70 degrees is under when it's 40 below outside.
Perhaps that is one of the reasons that homes built with SIPs show such great thermal effiency.
As for the wiring, It is far easier to run the wire on top of the timber using the grove cutter I bought. It kinda looks like a Skil saw with a wierd Dado head on it and I can cut a wire chase just about as fast as you can cut a piece of 3/4 inch plywood.
As far as spacing goes, any place I want traffic I use 8foot centers and just use a 6"x12" header between them (my top plate is 11' 6" off the floor) so I wind up with a little 1'6" post at mid point to maintain the currant spacing.
Regarding using mid point lites I considered them and wound up rejecting them for two reasons.
First
Since all I need to do is illuminate the ceiling, there will be no task lighting up there, It was over kill and I felt (IMHO) that it would tend to be too busy looking.
The only task lighting I need in that room will be served by the chandeller and a few wall picture lights. I will put plenty of outlets in the floor to provide any tempory seasonal lighting needs, etc.
Second.
As it is I will need 40 lights to properly illuminate the room, adding another 20 is getting very close to foolish...;-)
As far as feel goes, it's somewhat hard to really determine with all the construction debris lying around. However, The room gives me a solid almost church like feeling that is far over the top when it comes to strength image.
Why is it that no matter how much I finish up there is still a real need for more space? I used to have both cars parked in the garage and now not only do they have to sit outside, but I need to pick my way carefully (evan after a full day of cleaning up) or I'll trip over some timbers, tools, or stuff.
How will I ever regain the use of the garage?
Frenchy
I lost the use of my garage many years ago. I think the only answer is to move, for thats the only way I think I'll ever get rid of the junk stored in there.
Well, I'm not sure what pressure you're talking about. It'd be damned hard to open the front door with any substantial positive pressure inside. Maybe we're just not communicating effectively here.
Half of my books are at work, but both of my Ted Benson books are here and they each give a thorough description of prewiring a timber frame. Please see the attachment. (page 144 of Benson's "The Timber frame Home")
I'm also puzzled by the 6 mil poly you're using. Are you applying this to the SIP's? I've never heard of that. The Do-All you mention is the same as the expanding foam I refered to. I certainly agree that all joints must be sealed tight with this foam.
Anyway, you can definitely string the electrical wires on the exterior face of the timbers and tuck them into the SIP joints, if you want to. As far as the lights, that's just a matter of individual taste I guess.
Good luck with the rest of the panels. "Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I bet if we were here pointing at things we'd probably be in agreement on most matters.. One of the weaknesses of the internet is the lack of clear images and pictures etc. (esp. for a luddite like myself)
The method that I choose to use to wire the timberframe is to use a grove cutter. It's a timberframing tool that Mikita makes. (check on the timberwolf tools site for a picture of it) I looked at the wire chases that AFM offers and choos not to use them since that would limit the place I can use the panels. As it is I have two standard panel sizes and simple cut each to fit into it's location. While there is a tiny bit more waste with this system, it allows me the flexibity to make changes as I go.
One of the things I discovered when I had the walls up and the bridge in over the kitchen was the wonderful lake view that I simply didn't know was there. In addition the tower that I had origanally planned for the driveway side of the west wing simply didn't work. I planned an elevator to assist me should I need it in my old age but intrusions prevented it from being a usefull size. Once the bridge was up and I saw the view I was able to incorporate the tower In a location totally differant from the origanal plans.
I designed it on the fly so to speak. and since I could use any panel any place I choose, I didn't waste anything!
As for the need for poly in addition to the sips, To a certain degree it's a belt and suspenders approach. In the event that there should be an unseen airway at some joint the poly provides additional sealing. I put the poly on and hold it in place with the sheet rock providing an overlapping flap to seal between each panel.
Regarding the pressure I spoke of, it helps to realize that warm air rises and as such it provides a certain amount of "lift" (it's how a hot air ballon works) That warm air imparts a certain level of pressure and while it's not about to slam a door open, like the air in a bicycle tire it will do it's level best to find a way out.....
I brought home several lights and will temp. wire them up to how how they look, I'll let you know.
It's a real issue since I think that lights should provide illumination and not be seen. Other considerations come into play as well, for example how difficult are they to clean and change bulbs? How durable and do they fit the decor of the room? Cost is definately an element and electric consumstion come into play..
Revisiting the splines for a second - The purpose of the SIP splines is to reinforce unsupported panel joints. This isn’t necessary when the joint occurs over a timber. As far as sealing the joint, that’s what the expanding foam is for. That foam works much better when no spline is used. First, it allows you to run a continuous “bead” of foam (splines require access holes every foot or so, which could result in voids where you couldn’t, or forgot to, reach.) Second, the open gap allows the foam to easily flow into every nook and cranny. Finally, with no spline, it’s easy to see if you didn’t apply enough foam.
I couldn’t find an online installation manual for AFM, but here’s the one for WinterPanel..
4. Panel Joints
There are two types of panel joints commonly used with stresskin panels on timber-frame houses: butt joints, and dual 5/8 x 3" spline joints. A 2x4 spline may also be used as reinforcement for a particularly long unsupported wall span (over 9'). The simplest is the butt joint. When two panels meet at a framing member, the edges of both panels are secured to it as shown in Figure 5. This is the best type of joint in terms of thermal performance and ease of interior finishing.
<Picture wouldn't post. You can see it at http://www.winterpanel.com/manuals/stresskin/manual.html#WD >
Figure 5. Butt Joints Over Framing Members. Try to have panel joints align with framing members whenever possible. This produces the best joint in terms of energy-efficiency and ease of interior finishing. At least 1½" of the panel must rest on the timber for adequate attachment.
For the most energy-efficient seal with butt joints, leave a ¼" gap between the panels. After all panels have been installed, go back and fill these gaps with foam sealant (see Section 19). All panel joints that do not align with framing members must be reinforced with inset splines.
The interior finishing benefit doesn't apply to you, since you're applying drywall to the panels after they're in place. But the thermal effenciency benefit does apply.
Also, I’d say that you’re grossly overestimating the force with which warm air tries to escape your house.
I’ll skip the details, but the air inside a hot air balloon exerts something like .005 lbs per square inch. (A 55-foot diameter balloon carries about 500-1000 lbs of payload) That’s with one or more 15-million btu burners throwing 20-foot flames into the balloon. I doubt your furnace is going to heat your house that aggressively. Warm air will drift out an open hole in your roof, but it’s not fighting that hard to get out.
Still, there’s nothing wrong with sealing your home as tightly as possible. That’s why you might re-consider your panel joints. A foam-filled gap will seal much more reliably than a splined joint.
As far as the groove cutter, that’s a personal choice. The timbers are the sole structural support for your house. As such, you’d like to remove as little wood as possible – especially along the top or bottom of a timber in bending. That’s one reason why guys run the wires in the open panel joints. But, the safety margins on these timbers are usually very, very conservative. So cutting grooves probably isn’t a big deal. Groove cutters are used a lot on floor decks, where there isn’t any easy way to run the wires.
One word of caution if you’re considering using the groove cutter – you’re going to have to be extremely careful not to drive a panel fastener into the wiring. You obviously can’t see either the timber or the wire once the panel is in place. You want to stay an inch or two from the edge to avoid splitting the side out of the timber. For an 8-inch wide timber, that leaves 4 inches or so of fastening space. With an electrical wire somewhere in that space, there isn’t a wide margin for error. That’s probably another reason why people run the wires in the panel joints.
As I said, I couldn't find an AFM installation manual. Maybe they have a different opinion on this. As far as I can tell, leaving a gap between panels where they meet over a timber allows for a much better seal. Running the wires in this gap provides less chance of damaging a wire. Plus, it's probably much easier than trying to spline together panels 30 feet up in the air.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
There is a real differance between winters panels and AFM panels. which is better probably depends more on where you are than which you've selected. The reason I chose AFM is because I could pick up the panels myself rather than pay someone to truck them. I know that alone saved me several thousand dollars plus I could order as I needed rather than all at once.
AFM says very forcefully in their manual how critical the panel joint is. The perfect panel will make the house like a vacum bottle fully sealed all around. Fighting colder than40 below weather really teaches you a thing about heating costs. (for example my heating bill last January was over $450.00 And already this year I had to pay $250 for the month of Oct. (tarps don't insulate worth a darn!)
With the cost of energy going steadily higher I feel that attention to detail will pay off in a more efficent durable home.
I understand how to leave a gap and use sprayed in insulation but I'm not convinced that the resultant seal will be as complete as the butted and glued and nailed and screwed system that AFM uses.
As for the wire chases, I have only three in the roof deck all of the rest of the wiring is coming from below or walls that are more like traditional since those three are in the middle of each timber that leaves me with a comfortable margine for error (besides I use armoured cable)
I do like using the groove cutter for runing wire under timbers and cutting slots for wirsbo heating tube in flooring. (I use actual 2 inch thick flooring so sutting a 1/2x1/2 groove doesn't weaken it very much)... I can't imagine a better system and now they want to take it away from me. There is a recall and they want to refund the full price I paid plus shipping which means my use of it would be free. Wow, is it a slick tool! I really hate to give it up. In there defence I suspect that since it doesn't meet UL or any other standard they are looking at some major liablitity. They did say they won't have parts or any other support so I guess I have no choice... Sometimes safety suxs!!!!
This thread was a solicitation for suggestions and I've presented mine. Defending them any further would amount to me arguing how you should build your house. That would be way out of line, and likely not well-received.
I would love to see a reference where AFM specifically recommends splining joints over timbers - just for my own education and to satisfy an engineer's curiousity.
Best of luck with the panels, lighting and the coming weather."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Since I'm deep into building my dream house, I tend to get too vocal about my views. for that I apologize. Others have valid views on subjects and I respect them.....
Timothy I am constructing a vaulted ceiling cabin. Would like to use 1x6 tongue and groove paneling. I have found only one supplier in the Houston area. price he gave me was $1.12 per board foot. I need 1750 square feet. If I figured right that is $1.57 per square foot. Can you tell me what a fair price is for 1x6 tongue and groove Aspen. He has Delta Timber Company, Delta Best.
What does your supplier charge? What area of the country are you located in?
Hey Judge, sounds freakily similar to my project. Did you get your plans from Landmark in Oregon? "Clematis" is the original design I picked. Doesn't look much like the original though. Lots of creeping elegance in this design.
As for the $/bd ft issue. Cheapest is carsiding at about 78 cents a board foot here in WI. The Pine is at about 1.10 and Cedar is 1.25 per bd ft in all cases. It really depends on when you buy it & where. At that quantity you are looking at a "Unit" which is 2000 bd ft. It'll be trucked from somewhere so... look a little further away from home. The price might improve. Just give your local guy the "last look". That is the neighborly thing to do.
The market for the material fluctuates based on the supply & demand. When you are ready to buy check again for prices. Slow building gets the yard a bit hungry. The prefinished version from Michigan Prefinished sounds great til you price it. I went there 2 times thinking this is the easy answer. I guess you'd have to be a federal judge to afford it prefinished. Then again, I may go back to test their prices against my time.
Thanks Booch. We just started adding on to an existing cabin. It was a 14x40. Gonna be a 40x40 when completed. Converting from a cabin to a home.
Does the car siding have a groove when installed? And is the cut standard from most suppliers? I want to be sure I am not paying too much for the aspen. So far I have only found one supplier in the Houston area. Previous post on here sounded like aspen was an economical way to go. It sure gives the effect we are looking for. I keep thinking it may be more economical to find the product closer to the source and pay the freight. I can use a unit. Can be used on other jobs. Know what you mean about the prefinished.
The Carsiding is essentially what most people use for Wainscoating. Hit any lumber yard and it will be a stocked profile. Mostly in southern yellow pine which should be available in spades in your area. Thickness is 3/8ths with a set of beads on one face and the other side has 45 degree bevels at the mating surfaces. Width (from memory) is about 3-1/2" It is extremely cheap per foot. I was citing the bd foot at sub $1.00.
It will yellow unless you stain/pickle/paint it.
The 1750 sq foot you described hit me at home. If I precisely figure the main room and 2 bedroom lofted ceilings in the cottage I have underway, it comes to 1750 sq ft.
Interesting suggestion if you use the T&G cedar or pine in the 6" width. If you cut the boards in 2,4,6,8,10 foot lengths (assuming rafters are on 24 " centers) you can stagger them over the ceiling in a random pattern pretty easily. This is a consideration If you bevel the ends of each of the pieces then the joints look like they are part of the pattern rather than just part of a project where you couldn't find wood long enough.
Judge, Believe it or not I am in Cedaredge, Colorado about 20 miles from Delta, Home of Delta Timber Company, the aspen your looking at comes off of Grand Mesa, right out my back door. The really funny part is that our local lumber yard wants $1.17 per board foot for "delta best" ( not a big surprise, because they are always a rip off!) It is possible for me to purchase a full unit direct from delta, last time I checked I think it was about .85 per bd.ft. However, they recently had a fire and are 6 months out! They also sell cabin grade for about a third less (that's always available) for much less. But it is cabin grade, and lots of extra work. Now on the bright side, Home Depot carries Aspen T&G, (usually Delta Timber) here for about $1.02 per. and you can probably special order it from any H.D. in the U.S. if they dont stock it. I am in luck, however, in my search for prices, another local mill has a run of aspen for, only .58 a bd.ft. ...well, its a long drive from Houston. T.B.
Timothy, I will check my Home Depot. The $1.12 may not be that bad of a price. My supplier said he was expecting a shipment from Delta. Wonder if the fire will delay that. We started the job with some material another contractor had left over from another job. It was Delta Best. Works real good. How does the lumber from the other suppliers in the area compare to Delta Best? If it was comparable might be worth getting a unit if the freight was not too bad. We hope to start using a good bit of Aspen. Thanks for your help. JA
The lumber from the other suppliers is generally not very consistent, I would stick with the Delta. Best, T.B.
Where did you find T&G aspen? I've searched quite a bit in SE Wisconsin to find any varieties other than Cedar or Pine. The next closest alternative is SY pine carsiding. I think I'd be looking at a pinstripe suit with all of those lines.
I need 1900 Sq Ft and would love to find it at a reasonable price. Aspen is probably popular in the mountain states but not much available around here.
Did you finish it yourself? Or was it a Michigan prefinish?
I saw a pretty cool vaulted ceiling in a timber frame last summer that was done with sheetrock and then had a beautiful job of light pastel sponge painting...looked like soft clouds on a pale blue sky. Against some old hand-hewn barn timbers, it was very striking....and reflected a reasonable amount of light.
Hey! that's a great idea! wow, thanks!
I know the problem you're talking about, one of my friends built a log house with tongue and groove decking under the SIPs on the roof, and he lights it with upward floods. That ceiling just sucks up the light.
If you're going slightly rustic, you might try the treatment I used on a couple of "problem" walls in my house. These had uneven drywall on them, and instead of trying to skim coat then to make them perfect, I went the other way.
By randomly laying on "patches" of mud on in an overlapping fashion, I was able to get a wall finish that looks like Old World plaster. I finished it by lightly sanding to remove some of the crisp tool marks and primed with USG First Coat, which has lots of joint compound solids in it.
Everyone who's seen comments on how great it looks.
With a couple of coats of one of the ultra white satins, you'll have a surface that kicks back a lot of light, is easy to clean, and will look "interesting" when lit by uplights.
K
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"The dubious privilege of a freelance writer is he's given the freedom to starve anywhere." -- S.J. Perelman