I’ve been sub-contracting as a trim carpenter for about four years. My previous carpentry experience was in furniture making and theatrical set building so I was used to doing fine work but I had a lot to learn about dealing with the reality of jobsite conditions and dealing with the general contractor. I’ve become quite good at the work but I’m still not charging enough and continue to struggle financially. I sure would love to hear what other people charge and how they charge – by the square foot? by the opening? how about stairways and kitchens? I’ve been charging by the door, window etc. $50.00 a door w/o casing applied, $24/window under 6′, $30 over 6′, and estimating base from blueprint. Just wondering what people consider the “going rate” . Of course what part of the country one is in makes a big difference. I’ve been working in smaller college towns on houses ranging from 250-500k. An hour or so from major metropolitan area of Mpls/St. Paul.
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John,
I think the labor price for installing trim is a function of the style and size of the trim, so I try to shy away from linear foot pricing. For example, putting paint-grade MDF 1/2x4 mitered casings around a modern window is a heck of a lot different than using stain-grade wood on a traditional window, where you'll have a 3-element head with mitered cap, 1x5 casings, 5/4 stool, and returned apron, along with a number of stops.
A slightly easier way to get a handle on this variability is to just charge by the hour. If you've been doing this for a few years, I think it's safe to assume that you're probably as fast as the average guy. In my part of the country, $40 - $60 per hour is the approximate going rate for finish work (Seattle).
Of course, setting your hourly rate is also a function of supply and demand. Figure out what's reasonable in your area (ask a few general contractors) and start charging accordingly. After that, you can adjust your rate as need be to meet "market conditions".
Hope that helps.
Ragnar
I'm ging to have to move to your part of the country because you are making quite a bit more then in my neck of the woods. I bid per opening, per window, per cut of crown mould and per room of base. I give allowances of stairs, jacuzzi frames, trey ceilings, etc. With all this said, on average home (for me 3000-5000 sq. ft) I can get between $1.50 to $3.00 per square foot when averaged out. The problem in our area(western Kentucky) is that we still have a lot of carpenters(poor ones-quality and financially) who will work for beer money. Although my quality is hands down better, the price comparison is allways there. I learned to work extremely efficient. I have stream lined every part of the job, from set up and tear down to cutting door casing and crown mould. Think productivity.
Please excuse the spelling. I spent my time in shop, not english.
John, I know you want hard numbers but I take a lot of things into consideration when pricing out trim work or anything else for that matter. Elements such as location, type of material, how much involved, client disposition etc. etc. determine what I charge. IF I'm interpreting your numbers correctly they seem in the ballpark BUT that is before mark up. I markup material and labor anywhere from 25% up to 75%, once again depending on a multitude of elements.
If you have enough work that keeps you scheduled a couple weeks out, start raising your rates slowly with each job. You'll know to stop raising rates when your lead time shrinks or disappears.
That sounds low, but your gut and experience are better guides than any of our ideas about "going rates". Theres really almost no such animal. You have to charge what you have to charge. Historically, I think I've been the one around here always going "geez, that's expensive" whenever anyone starts talking prices, but if you're hanging and trimming a door for $50 and you're worth a hoot, you should get more.
"There is always inequity in life. Some men are killed in war and some men are wounded, and some men never leave the country. Life is unfair" J.F.Kennedy
The most important thing is getting your name around. If you have to compete with poor tradesmen than you haven't built your name up yet. Even if you're working for contractors, if you're on time and do what you said you're going to do, you can charge a more appropriate rate. "Carpenters" working for beer money are not reliable and if late or don't show up, they cost the contractor a lot of money. Honesty, which is hard to find in this profession, is worth it's weight in gold. If the person you're working for can't appreciate your work (and that you do good work) go somewhere else, or work for a company that will. I get so many calls to finish or fix work that was left behind from incompetent contractors, it makes me sick what is out there.
John,
SWDD has a point here, and I'd like to add something to it.
I know that sometimes things might get slow, and at times like that you just might have to take whatever comes your way, but in normal times, realize that the price you charge is part of marketing in itself. That is, many people will pay more for something because they think that it will be a better product. They'll think this just because it costs more! On the other hand, even if you do great work, if you're bidding at the low end of the spectrum, clients (who aren't educated enough in carpentry to tell the difference sometimes) might just assume that your work is low end, too.
Ragnar
Trim carpenters working for beer money? Come on. You should be making twice that oftherwise you won't be able to afford the shot to go with it.
That phenomenon repeats itself in every market. Around here I'd be lucky to get 1.50 a foot on simple houses. But I can gross 2500 or so in an easy week if I hustle. That's why I do it piece rate. Hourly the same guy would pay me 30/hr. I got a guy with probably 25 years experience, best trim carp I have seen, can do anything, who will work for less than me. I use him on my own work.
I guess the point is you have to find the niche that makes you enough to not struggle financially. You might have to get faster, work harder, or adjust your finances.
I have never struggled financially since I've been in the trades (three kids, wife at home). But then I have never spent money I didn't earn yet. That has allowed me to seek out they most profitable work, and I ain't picky. I have made lawyers rates with 50 bucks in tools doing mindless work that a sixth grader could do, and I have paid to do work that requires many years of experience, 30k in tools, a tremendous amount of skill.
It does seem to me somewhat that trim subs buy there work in a way. Most carps consider it the cream of the work, and it can be fun to do. Call me shallow, but making wheelbarrows full of money is more fun. Plus I like variety.
I try to be efficient and skilled enough that I could specialize in a number of trades. But I stay flexible enough to diversify into anything profitable.
Tom
John,
When all is said and done, YOUR time is money. You have to make a living at what you do, or else why bother. If you feel you are worth X amount of dollars, stick to your guns. If they turn you down then no harm done. You can never go wrong with going hourly. If you have been in the trades for a while, just use your best judgement on time and multiply your rate. If it takes longer in the end, lesson learned.
Have fun most of all!
We usually make out charging 15% of the window price for installation and casing, if we are talking about simple picture frame. Jamb extensions, plinth blocks, etc. are extra. Our customers also get a break if we are installing in a house we've built ourselves. There is another consideration, too, which is traveling. We are the sole importer to Israel for a major window company, and often wind up travelling to different parts of the country. Is this a factor for you? Will you be spending time purchasing special trim or making different items? Sills and aprons you make yourself? Are the r.o.'s the right size? We charge, and our clients pay, since there aren't too many guys in this part of the world who do it our way.