I was in a Chinese drywall house today, before any rehab was done.
The pictures are on my FTP site, (use your back button to get back to index)
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Chinese%20Drywall/
I will make up some HTML when I get a chance but these are the pictures if you want to browse.
Basically anything covered was OK (including under screws). Brass and copper was affected, steel and aluminum didn’t seem to be. You could get the black stuff off the wire with your fingernail. Note the bus bars and lugs in the panel look brand new. (aluminum alloy)
Plumbing fixtures took a hit as did a set of brass keys hanging on the wall.
This house was abandoned at final trim and sat empty for well over a year. The smell can best be described as musty with a hint of sewer gas.
Replies
Nice neat panel wiring. That's exactly what I strive for. Did you do that?
Scott.
Nice pictures...well, if bad stuff can be nice.
I am still trying to figure this out...I know its outgassing but if the house was vacant and presumably no AC on, is it just strong enough to permiate through the house on its own??? I guess with the high humidity we have here it obviously can.
Wild stuff.
Is this going to be a complete gut and redo or are they going to try one of the tenting methods?
One more thing...if you can get some pieces of the drwyall on that job, I would be interested in:
1. Seeing if the labeling on the back does indeed indicate it was made in China. I know that seems pretty obvious but if it doesn't and there is still a problem, thats kinda scary as how do you really ID it in other homes.
2. Does it look, feel, smell like any other drywall.
The drywall itself in small pieces does not have any discernible smell. It looks like regular drywall. You really don't smell anything until you close up the house for a while.They are about done with this house's twin. The drywall was removed, the block sealed and it was rocked back up.
Interesting....thanks for the info. I know there are some in my area (Tampa) but haven't done any work in any of them yet.
The thing that really struck me is all the aluminum and steel looks brand new. In the panel the lugs and bus bars are shiny. That garage door opener spring bracket looks pristine, yet the keys, hanging right next to it were black. It does appear I was wrong about the water. Things in dry areas took a hit as bad as in wet areas.
It does only seem to be getting copper and brass (copper/zinc alloy).
It doesn't even bother zinc. Galvanized metal was shiny too.The wire under the screw was also shiny so I doubt there was a hazard there. The black stuff just flakes off with your finger nail. The Cape AHJ only wants exposed wires cleaned. I think they are using a scotch brite.
I couldn't get any devices to break open but when he does the twin he says he will try to get me some. The power was on in the "bad" house and all the switches seemed to turn the lights on OK. I tried to get one to flicker or something.
One ironic thing is the cheap builder model door hardware (steel with some kind of varnished finish) look brand new. A good brass set would be pitted.
Are you in charge of straighting the house out?
So the one time that having cheap metal fixtures as opposed to brass paid off!
Its amazing how it coats everything yet just flakes off. I wonder how its causes so much damage then as it would seem its not eating into the finish, wire, etc. Maybe it does after more than a year or so? And only certain metals?
Definitely more chemisty involved than I understand but still very interesting.
Frammer
I am just a bystander on this but I know the guy who is doing it. He is going to be a real estate tycoon when this market opens up. Right now he is buying, fixing and renting although he plans on selling the drywall houses. Mike
I agree there has to be some metal coming off with that black stuff but it is really a very thin coating. I tried to get a piece of the wire as a sample but simply handling it makes all the black stuff fall off and you end up with clean copper wire in a few seconds.
I have actually seen similar coating on old wiring that wasn't in a chinese drywall house but that was 20-30 years old, not 2.These houses were originally abandoned because the market blew up and the buyers backed out ... then they found the drywall problem.
I am wondering if the houses were left open, allowing the off gasing to disapate, if this would not occur?
Frammer,
Darn good question! The cases everyone is complaining about were lived in with the AC and such on. And here in FL it usually never nice enough to just open the windows...well maybe for one month out of the year.
I wonder what the time frame would be for venting the gasses out of it.
A smiliar thought is how folks like "new car smell" when they get a new car when really all it is is the plastic, carpet and such outgassing. A year later and its just about gone...
I also wonder if there is a mix of chemicals causing the problem.
Did you see the posting where the science is out yet on the cause?
No I didn't.... I know there is SOME issue but I wonder if its really what everyone is thinking?
I wish I knew more chemistry to know for sure...
I read a piece posted on JLC and posted it here. It basically said there is nothing that is proven yet that it is the drywall causing the problem.
Lots of guesses, I like several over at JLC think it might be a combination of some kind.
From what I am reading, it doesn't happen in every house.
Yeah, definitely curious about it. Wouldn't it be something if it was found to be something else other than the drywall???
I have wondered if people were jumping the gun and assigning blame before the science confirms what the cause is. It would not be unheard of for the initial thought to be wrong. Look at the lawsuits in reguards to silicone breast implants, that turned out to not be the cause of the suffering these women went through.
Look at the outlawing of DDT, a substance which still has not been scientifically certain that the problems assigned to it were caused by it.
We in the US tend to jump to conclusions, for whatever the reason it seems to be ingrained in us!>G<
Florida is ground zero on this problem and there are guys here with a lot of experience fixing it.http://factoidz.com/images/user/us-map-chinese-drywall.JPGThere is no doubt it is sulfur dioxide from the drywall.
There is no doubt it is sulfur dioxide from the drywall.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am not disagreeing with you, it is just there is no scientific proof as of yet.
Please read the small print, self reporting.
There are a lot of people working on the proof but they are government people so they have to get the politics right before they can release a report
Yeah and by the time they are done, the guys in the field (us) will have it all repaired.
I don't know how anyone could have politics involved here. It either is the problem or it isn't.
It appears from an outsider with absolutly nothing at stake, that there might be a rush to judgement on this. Either way, the builders risk insurance should pay, to fix the problem.
I thought about that risk insurance thing to (E&O or something) but I sure haven't heard anyone say it was true. A lot of these houses were abandoned in construction and the builder is out of business too.
Lennar is the only one I have heard of that is actually making good on them but there may be others.For some reason, we are not holding chinese companies or even the German company Knapf responsible for any of this. That really seems political to me. Essentially I think US consumer laws stop at the border. That is not very comforting when you consider how much we import.
I do think part of the problem is that this stuff finally outgasses all the sulfur and if they stall long enough the drywall drops to an acceptable level. I know when I finally got my hands on some loose, I couldn't smell a thing but I had been walking around in the house a while.
This stuff affects different people differently tho. For me it was just a slight musty smell, like the smell you get from a kitchen drain, along with being closed up a while. My friend complained about a sore throat, sinus problems and said the smell was overpowering.
The insurance companies will not cover it nor will they write or continue to cover any houses with Chinese drywall.
Yeah thats what I had heard too. When I aksed my carrier if the BR would cover it if I ever had that problem they said they weren't sure but thought probably not as it didn't airse as a problem DURING construction but after the house had been C.O.ed. They said one a house has the C.O., BR is no longer in effect and the Homeowners policy is responsible
Exactly what I heard. I also read the other day that the Feds are already stepping in with more of our tax money.
Typical. How about the Fed sue the Chinese or Knauf?! Oh wait a minute don't we owe China a bunch of money so maybe thats why we won't?
Sorry, retarct that last statement...don't want to hijack this thread as a political statement!
Homeowners or liability?
I had heard it had to be claimed against the Homeowners insurance.
Mike, What is liability insurance for? Liability a builder runs into while running his business.
If they are telling you to go to the HO ins., it is because they don't want their ins co. to pay!
Homeowners. They don't want to get caught in the middle any more than anyone else.
http://www.chinesedrywall.com/Another site to chew onThey have some interesting theories about the problem too. The "water damage on the ship" is interesting since the drywall I saw had evidence of traces of black mold on the back. Maybe that is part of the health problems reported.
We wrote it off at the time as just getting wet in the construction.
Please refer us to a site that is scientific.
I really am sorry for whatever is causing this to happen. It does appear from my reading there is something wrong, but site like this are not really helpful in moving to find the cause.
This is still an evolving story, you have to take what they are finding from day to day.
I agree there is a lot of mythology and if you don't live in Florida or Louisiana it probably does not affect you at all, according to the map of confirmed cases. Florida is by far #1 on the list.http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Chinese%20Drywall/Map%20of%20cases.jpgIt is basically Florida and the Gulf coast states hit by Katrina. The other states, with the exception of Virginia have so few reported cases (<10) it may just be lost in the noise. Most report none at all.I have seen it and I believe it is real. At a certain point it may not even be important exactly what is wrong with the Chinese drywall but we know that Chinese drywall was what caused the problem.
seen it and I believe it is real. At a certain point it may not even be important exactly what is wrong with the Chinese drywall but we know that Chinese drywall was what caused the problem.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I believe that you do.
The problem is that science is not backing it up so far. That being said, it may eventually, but it isn't now. That is the point I am making. There appears to be a lot of jumpiming of the gun in reguards to this, and it needs to be sorted out.
What part don't you think is *not* proven?
1. That the drywall is the problem?
2. That it is only Chinese drywall?
3. That we don't know the exact chemistry of what is going on inside the drywall?
There has been no definative scientific studies on what the problem is. In fact the one study shows that it is not the drywall.
Expand your mind, what if it is not the drywall? You do know there are a lot of chemicals in a house. Who knows maybe the proportion with the humidity or lack of air in the new houses is causing the problem.
I am saying until we know what it is, don't jump the gun and say definitive statements. It might not be the drywall. At this point no one knows for sure. We have an idea, but it may be wrong.
Relax, it will work itself out. In the meantime, contact the company that built the house or find out the insurance company that sold them liability insurance and put claim in.
Trust me, this is a liability issue which people in Florida need to be compensated for by the company that built the home. Let them sue whomever they wish to get their money back.
They have not suggested that any other product in the house might have caused this. Everyone who has looked at this agrees it is some kind of sulfur coming out of the drywall. The only real open question is why the drywall out gasses sulfur and what was the cause. It also only seems to be drywall from China that is confirmed as being bad.
I am not talking to lawyers, homeowners or scientists, just a guy who is fixing the problems. He says when you have all the drywall in a dumpster and smell it, there is no question where the sulfur came from. Because of our recycling program the drywall goes in a separate dumpster.I can attest the gutted house doesn't smell bad anymore and the one next door with the original drywall does.
I am not sure how much more scientific you have to be.As for the builders. If they are still in business you could sue them but a lot of these guys are bankrupt and a lot of the houses in question were abandoned before they were finished.
Add to that the number that were walked away from by the upside down owner, abandoned by the bank and just sitting in limbo and you see this is not as simple as a homeowner and a builder duking it out over a warranty claim.
I bet, before it is over, the government will own a significant number of these houses. If the owner walks away and the bank doesn't foreclose, it goes over on a tax/code enforcement lien. Those liens can quickly gobble up the residual value of a house. In places like Cape Coral, code enforcement fines can only be described as draconian.
As for the builders. If they are still in business you could sue them but a lot of these guys are bankrupt and a lot of the houses in question were abandoned before they were finished. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree with most of you post. But here is where we have problems.
Florida has one of the US most stringent licensing system. I suspect with very little effort the insurance companies of these builders can be found out. Either at the licensing board or at the permit office.
These are the entities that shouldbe made to pay, if the builder is unable. This is the reason I and others have perchased the insurance in the first place.
Defective drywall or whatever, would be covered.
Why are they not being asked to step up to the plate?
If they are dragging their feet, where is the Florida dept of insurance?
The builders were required to have $75,000 in bond but that went away very fast. Insurance companies simply have better lawyers and stronger contracts than homeowners.
I have not heard of any of them stepping up. They all say this is not in the scope of their policy.
They all say this is not in the scope of their policy.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bad materials sure is in their contracts. To say not is just begging why your dept of ins has not stepped in.
All I know is what I read in the papers.
Guys, a bad idea can sometimes take on a life of it's own.
I believe I am the one responsible here. AFAIK, I was the one who first speculated that the 'chinese drywall' had been made with incompletely refined waste recovered from power plant emissions.
It was a nice theory - offered at a time when absolutely no one else was offering any explanations as to what the problem really was, or the cause. It has also been proven to be wrong.
The bad drywall originates from one mine, one drywall plant. The impruities are not the result power plant emissions, but rather contamination that came out of the ground with the gypsum ore. While -supposedly- mining had been stopped at that end of the mine years ago, it appears that someone has been getting clever, passing off some of this contaminated ore.
In a twisted way, this makes sense. Anyone who has been to Peking will be willing to accept that there are no emission controls anywhere, on any plant, in China.
As I see it, this is the legal picture:
Knauf, as the supplier, is responsible. If you look at manufacturer warranties, however, they are responsible only for replacing the defective product. If you want to make a claim for more, to overturn the limitations of the warranty, you will have to make a case for fraud. That's not easy to do.
The developers, and their contractors, are on the hook for making the repairs. In most cases, this responsibility is limited to one year - but I think we can still make the claims stick.
The real problem is that many of the businesses involved are no longer in existance. It was precisely because of these sorts of claims that tract developments are now the exclusive province of 'instant' contracting firms; as soon as the job is finished, they dissolve, then re-open across the street as a different entity.
Even if you could hold the firms to account, they are still not responsible for anything but replacing the defective work. You are still stuck with moving costs, paying for housing in the interim, etc. Askinf for 'contingent' or 'consequential' damages is hard in the best of times; in this instance, it isn't going to happen.
To be realistic, I predict that a lot of these affected homes will just happen to catch fire, or be blown down in the next hurricane. Then the attempts will be made to collect on either the fire insurance or the disaster relief monies.
The more I read about this, and I read a lot, the more I am starting to think this is all a few ship loads of drywall that landed in New Orleans and Miami right after Katrina and radiated out from there.
There is even some indication that it sat at anchor a while waiting for a favorable market.
I also think there are at least 2 mechanisms at work here. I think the "copper" problem is caused by the sulfur but the health problems may have more to do with mold. I know the drywall I saw in the Cape had black mold on the back. There are three possibilities there. 1. The drywall was moldy when they put it up, (shame on the builder)2. They let the house sit without stuccoing the outside after they put up the drywall. Again shame on the builder. You really shouldn't drywall until after stucco.3. The drywall was wet and caused the mold after it was hung.I will say the symptoms people report sure sound like mold to me. Since the mitigation is the same, (tear out the drywall and seal the block) it is really a distinction without a difference.I am still waiting for the next few houses my buddy is tearing chinese drywall out of, If there is significant mold in them my theory may be true. I wish I could find the original builder to ask about question #1 and 2.
I might be able to see 2 in the permit/inspection record. How long was it between the FEPAC, windows and the final? Was it rainy season?
Greg, in the interest of remaining objective ... the more the press hypes this issue, the greater will be the contribution of mass hysteria to the problem.
You know ... like the room of perfectly happy folks who all get sick just because some ONE person does. 5 minutes after the paramedics arrive, everyone is feeling 'ill' and 'faint.'
In this market, there's no shortage of folks with financial reasons to pass off their bad investments to any boogeyman they can find. Nor is there any shortage of folks - be they politicians or lawyers - looking for some camera time to proclaim their passion for 'hope' and 'change.' Indeed, both of these groups have a powerful incentive to see that the issue is never resolved.
Peter Huber, in his book "Galileo's Revenge: Junk Science in the Courtroom," went into the dynamics of this type of situation in great detail. It's really quite sobering. For example, were you aware that the "authorities" were suddenly unable to find any more witches, once they were no longer able to seize the property of the accused? Pure coincidence? I think not.
Here at Fine Homebuilding, there is no shortage of "eco-friendly" folks who extoll the virtues of tightly sealed homes for energy efficiency. Perhaps if the construction had been a little less meticulous, natural forces would have prevented this problem from ever arising. We saw this with the original 'mold panic,' which followed the Carter-era mania for making 'tight' houses.
In cleaning up after a minor flood at home, we're finding all manner of advanced rot and mold, in areas that were not touched by the flooding. The stuff has been quietly falling apart for 15 years - and this in a home that has been maintained as if Better Homes was sending a team over at any minute, to take pictures for the January issue.
With hindsight, it's easy to see how a few tiny construction details can be changed to eliminate the return of the problem. Perhaps the same is true of construction in general - we're doing it all wrong - and the "Chinese drywall" controversy is only the first warning sign.
Thank you for putting into words what I was unable to do .
My neighbor was in the dry wall house with me and the effect on him was obvious. His eyes were red and his nose was running.
That is the same reaction he has to certain pollen and high mold counts in the weather. I know that may be a strange concept out there in Tahoe but it is common here in Florida. I am not sure why someone with mold allergies would move here ;)I am willing to agree with Frammer on the "health" issues to some extent but if the amount of mold I saw in that drywall is indicative of a significant number of them, it could really be a problem for people who are sensitive to mold.
Responsible builders here follow the mold regulations and avoid it at all costs.
The company my wife built for was fanatical about it. All of the wood was treated for mold, need it or not and most of the framing was steel. If you had any kind of leak, the wall was opened up to verify that none got in and if it did you did a total mold mitigation protocol. She said it was frustrating to watch a mold mitigation company guy rip up your new kitchen but rulz is rulz.
They ended up with a certification that it was OK from a licensed tech before they could proceed. That is why I really question anyone who would put up moldy drywall.
Edited 11/9/2009 7:54 pm ET by gfretwell
It occurs to me that in New York where there have been less than 10 cases reported in the whole state, you have a reason to be skeptical but there are plenty of examples here in Florida that they are studying. I really think it is the lawyers who are holding up the research but in the foreclosures, the flippers are just fixing it and moving on.
Lennar seems convinced it is true and they built a lot of the affected houses. They are accepting responsibility and fixing them at their expense.
Lennar seems convinced it is true and they built a lot of the affected houses. They are accepting responsibility and fixing them at their expense>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually they are doing what any responsible company should do. They may have installed a defective product, and they are replacing it.
They are probably going to be reimbursed by their liability carrier.
Facts:The problems involve homes with Chinese drywall.Sulfur compounds are interacting with copper in wiring, A/C condensers, etc.The Chinese drywall contains sulfur, most likely due to the practice of using fly ash waste as a source material for the drywall (from high sulfur coal from power plants in China).Why do you think this is such a huge mystery?
The Chinese drywall contains sulfur, most likely due to the practice of using fly ash waste as a source material for the drywall (from high sulfur coal from power plants in China).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Huge mystery is because that was suspected and even the source that gretwall gave us have ackowledged that is not the case.
Why do you think this is such a huge mystery?>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Go over to JLC and read what Dick has found out.
The biggest is that the gov has done one study already and it has come back negative.
Please don't tell me that you are a conspiracy believer like others that have posted here and at web sites like was referrenced.
One more thing.
This si starting to sound more and more like the silicone breast implants that were proven after the lawyers all got rich suing manufactorors of silicone, was not the cause of the problem these women had.
Too much of this has popped up on websites advertising by lawyers!
Edited 11/7/2009 8:52 pm ET by frammer52
The information I provided is from the March 2009 issue of JLC.
I realize tat. Look at the forums.
It may be underreported. Your map indicates about 1800 cases when there may be 60,000. Still, while 60,000 may sound like a lot, it needs to be thought of in the context of roughly 120,000 starts per month during the 2004-2006 range.
Runnerguy
I have seen the same thing on some exposed copper wire before too. In my grandfathers basement after about 40 years of being exposed and in a pool house in a condo complex. I wonder if the pool house was something from the chlorine in the air???
Thanks for the pictures.
I am still wondering what causes this.
Anyone know what the Chinese are doing with this sruff in Chinese houses?