Too bad atheists don’t get such deep discounts.
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"Would I rather make mortgage payments and reap the no income tax benefit on the housing allowance funds, or have the housing allowance money in whole, again to invest the otherwise mortgage payment in any way that seems good to me?"
But if they are in a church owned parsonage then they don't have a housing allow so they don't have those funds to otherwise invest.
And BTW, while income taxes are not paid on housing allowance, SS taxes are paid.
And pastors have very strange tax wise. While they are employees and get W-2's they don't have any withholding and have to pay both 1/2 of the SS as though they where self-employeeded.
But if they are in a church owned parsonage then they don't have a housing allow so they don't have those funds to otherwise invest.
Bill, this is the very same argument I remember from 45 yrs ago. "If the pastor invests wisely..." Well it didn't happen then and it ain't likely to happen now. Parsonages are a disservice to the pastor. And to the parent church organization.
Doesn't make any difference what you call money going to the pastor, salary, housing allowance, retirement fund... as long as it's disposable income it'll be treated as such. Churches are employers. They need to stand up and act like responsible employers, especially for a somewhat irresponsible employee. Otherwise, everybody loses.
Take a look a US savings' rates. Pastors are people. Maybe had a calling, but it's a job we're talking about here. Creating dependency is not good, especially for somebody who already has so many dependents of his own.
I listened to txlandlord's argument. Doesn't hold water. The sole benefit I see is that the congregation can feel good about what a nice house the pastor lives in. While totally ignoring their long-term responsibility. A replay of my youth. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"And pastors have very strange tax wise. While they are employees and get W-2's they don't have any withholding and have to pay both 1/2 of the SS as though they where self-employed."actually, i think they are generally treated as self-employed, rather than employees. also, unless the law has changed, pastors can make the election to opt out of the social security system in their very first year of having earnings from the profession, and never have to pay social security (or in their case, self employment tax). if they do not opt out, then they do pay social security/self employment tax on their entire income, including the housing allowance that is exempt from income tax.
You are right they can opt out of SS for a certain period. IIRC it is not a year, but some odd time period such as 13 weeks or 17 months.But no they are EMPLOYEES and get W-2's and don't fill a sch C. But they pay taxes on their church income using sch SE and paying self-employement taxes rather than SS/Medicare which matching employor amounts. And employee expenses that they have would go on sch A and not C.That is clear if you read the circular E and SE instructions.However, a lot of churches do give them 1099's in error.Now this is only for their direct work as religiou leadere of a church.If say they are also manage a church run school or worked at a hospital as a (I can't think of the word, but religious counsler) then for that work they would be treated as an ordinary employee with SS and withholding.And if they did an work outside the church, such as free lance weddings, then that would be self-employement income.BTW, there is another odd ball group of people - statutory employees. Those employees, by law, but allowed to treat their income as self-employement income and fill sch C. However, they get W-2's and taxes and SS is collected on GROSS income and they don't pay SE income. Typcially used by route salesman (bread and the like) and captive insurance salesman.
Hey thanks.
51 in a Church where the average age is around 32, but while Church elders generally have lots of life experience in years, the qualifiers are not always related to physical age.
Too bad atheists don't get such deep discounts.
Is one reason because they are on their own? I do not know.
Do atheist gather together, support one another and the cause?
We're all on our own.
And no, we don't support the cause because the cause is unsupportable. Either do the magic, or summon this deity before me and my peers so we an subject it to a battery of tests and determine if it is real or not. If you can't do that it's all absurdity to me. Faith is a dangerous thing, humans should have higher standards.
The sole benefit I see is that the congregation can feel good about what a nice house the pastor lives in.
Wrong.
Read it again. Your ire is clouding your comprehension. Not wrong. It truly is the only thing I see. Obviously, you would see something else.
Making an argument/ observations... there's little difference. I was simply talking about your stated position. And I think you knew that. Nitpicking doesn't accomplish much.
You could have / should have been gracious and displayed better understanding in wanting to reveal your mind, simply suggesting consideration be made for your opinions, observations and related experience.
Pretty sure I did that in my earlier posts, that didn't annoy you. Clearly your church can commit to his longterm well-being, but you apparently haven't. Or I'm quite sure you would have said so. I wasn't suggesting that homeownership was the only option, simply the best one if you aren't planning on at the very least, a life estate for him in the parsonage, or equivalent. Surely you know that homeownership is the primary factor in most people's estates. One that you're effectively denying him.
Could he buy a house, use it for a rental or whatever, and maintain it for his retirement? Of course. Will it happen? Experience says no. And you don't want him distracted with that anyway.
You misunderstood, not my experience, churches, several denominations. For many years and many pastors. I was curious a few yrs ago and started asking questions, as I mentioned. Didn't end with one Methodist minister.
Otherwise, whatever you say, but you've offered nothing new about this subject that I didn't hear years ago in Arizona. I didn't fully understand then. It really is a very old subject that was pretty much resolved. That's why I was very surprised with your original post, and hesitated to ask. As you noted, Methodists, in their peculiar pastor rotation have a peculiar problem. But at times that rotation all but stops.
Regarding responsibilities of home ownership distracting from his duties, y'all could clearly alleviate all of them for him if you chose to. And provide him a chauffeured limo and personal trainer. It's a matter of choices. Still an employer/employee relationship. I'm simply suggesting that the highly valued employee should be treated better, whether he's asking or not. With all those church duties, you would do well to at least provide the investment to take care of him and his so that it doesn't distract from his duties.
This doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything but elevating your blood pressure so I'll bow out.
I'm sure he'll enjoy the new house.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
What a ridiculous example. I can prove that 2+2=4, that's the beauty of math and science. You cannot prove the existence of this thing you call god, that's the ugliness of religion. Faith is a cheap cop out for not being able to do the hard work, the hard work of becoming more intelligent with each passing generation. We used to believe the sun revolves around the earth, that the earth was flat, that bleeding people with leeches was sound medical treatment, that a man named jesus - if he even ever existed - was the son of god. I see no beauty in faith or religion, only disgusting ignorance. I walk through the mountains near my home and see hundreds of millions of years of geology, I see evidence of evolution, I see biology, chemistry and physics at work. I see nothing else. Can you do the magic?
Malachi 3:1-4:3. You do not have to believe it to make it true.
Logic 101: If you can't provide even the slighest of evidence, it probably isn't true.
I think Josh McDowell was an athetist who sought to disprove God.
Have you read his book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict?
Phillipians 4:6-7 Can you see the spiritual math equation here?
In the same way you put two blocks with two blocks in learning 2 + 2 = 4, there is instructions to put something with something else, and the author tells you the results before you know it yourself.
And those instructions are the bible. A nice little piece of fiction. Funny how your whole lot is in a book, such a human-like piece of material to rely on to justify something unprovable. And if you, just for a minute as an intellectual exercise, put aside the bible, then what? Can you do the magic?
Magic? I do not do magic. A good magician recently told me all magic is simply deception. I do not do magic.
Edited 2/15/2006 2:18 am ET by txlandlord
Maybe I should become one of those fake preachers I see on the TV so I can get such gullible people to do my bidding. A pretty good gig really, lying for a living, relying on all you poor saps and your fragile intellect. Sodomize young boy once in a while. It's all a sham, don't you see, a grand conspiracy to get your money and hard earned labor. And you're just falling into line, like a good little christian. You still haven't answered me: Can you do the magic? I have to go, I have a hooker coming over.
If you feel so strongly, and really want proof of sometihing, read Josh McDowell's book, as suggested. He has an atheiest background and you can perhaps relate.
What the he.......
I didnt think I could go in the tav!
I am to blame.
Our Church has been calling a home we built for the pastor and family a Parsonage. I simply wanted to present the home as a construction project and as a side note: the blessing it represents for the members and pastor. I had no idea "parsonage" meant so much to others. Forgive me guys.
In the future I am sticking with boards and nails type post. I took out my previous posts to prevent further trouble.
Parsonage? What is a parsonage? We just built a home for a good friend who has loved and served us well. We are considering giving it to him and his family for his lifelong service. He is not alone.
Tx
No No, it wasnt you. Its all the anti God stuff that makes me think of the tav.
Hell let Rickie go over to the tav and start a thread on the subject, or the lack of a subject!
I had reservations about the size of the house your building but never have I questioned your intent. You made a good argument as to why the house was to be the size that it is, thats good enough for me.
Doug
Is this your hooker?
Woman May Have Exposed 100 Sex Partners To HIV
http://www.local6.com/news/7050466/detail.html
Is that the hard work you were talking about?When you said:
" the hard work of becoming more intelligent with each passing generation"
Boy thats deep!
Edited 2/15/2006 1:38 pm ET by prosecho
Off to the Tavern we go...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Oh man, can't we just do something simple..like discuss weather sheathing should go sideways (wrong) or up-n -down?
Religion and politics, perhaps something I should avoid on Breaktime.
Hey, we just finished a nice home for a friend. He has worked hard over the years always loving and serving others. A bunch of his friends (people he has helped) got togerther and built a very nice home for him becasue of the love and service he has displayed in his actions toward all of us. He gets to live in the home just becasue he has been so good and worked hard for us, and we will all get together and pay the bills, maintain the home, cut his grass and tend his flower beds.
He is loving and serving everyday, so in addition to paying him money every week, we also provide him with vacations and money to spend on vacations, health benefits, vehicles, meals and entertainment, all as appreciation for his love and service. There are also tremendous retirement benefits offered to him and his family by all of his friends.
Be nice to someone today.
He would like for me to refinish his desk as a compliment to his new home office.
What type of finish do you think I should spray on the restained desk?
I am a busy custom homebuilder. My personal contribution to the build out of the home is considerable. Do you think we have done enough or should I get into the shop and start to work?
Ha, silly question. If you knew how I used to be, you would probably tell me that I could never repay the debt I owe to my friend. I know that already, so it is easy for me to do the desk. I am going back to the shop after this post. Being a busy homebuilder I need to burn the midnight oil to redo the desk, but my friend and his life changing work in my life makes it easy.
Also, I have had some great success in investing in real estate, do you think I should tell him of some of my ideas or keep them to myself?
It has been suggested we give him the home for his love and service to others. What do you think? Many of us do not want to stop with the home, and in fact are planning to install a swimming pool with spa, Summer Kitchen, three car Garage with guest quarters above and a tennis court.
I know him and he will have us over for steaks, a game or two of tennis and a romp in the pool. He will welcome guest in the guest quarters from all over the world, and we will get to meet them. Some of the international guest he met on international vacations that we gave him becasue of his love and service to us.
Truthfully, I do not care if we give the home to him or not. I am so blessed that it is no skin off my nose.
We are truly gratful to have a friend that loves and serves us on a daily basis, and have taken steps to show it.
Loving and serving others seems to reap benefits. Why don't we all give it a try and test the princilples of giving. It may be a good way to prove some of the things I have read about giving.
Hey Rickie who pooped in your cheerios?
I am not deffending the "Parsonage" I wouldn't.If you want to talk about it from the aspect of a building fine with me.Its a nice house.
But when you talk about faith ,now that is a horse of a different color.
I guess you come to this site because you have a love or at least an honest respect for the building trades.On that I hope we can at least agree.
Have you ever in your life ran into anyone who really wasn't the best example of a carpenter ,someone who you really didn't want your work to be associated with?
Maybe some really hack painter comes in after your done and trashes your work.
I can relate to that too.
you said :
Faith is a cheap cop out for not being able to do the hard work, the hard work of becoming more intelligent with each passing generation.
I would say you got some bad imformation
God says:
Faith "comes from hearing"
John 8:3030 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him. (from New International Version)
You know what Rickie you may be a nice guy well intentioned and all ,but I am not going to let the rookie on the job tell me what it takes to be a carpenter.I think I will trust what the master said.
1 Cor 2:14-1614 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
Prov 19:2-32 It is not good to have zeal without knowledge,nor to be hasty and miss the way.
3 A man's own folly ruins his life,yet his heart rages against the LORD. (from New International Version)
Ps 53:1The fool says in his heart,"There is no God."(from New International Version)
Mark 6:3
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.KJV
I think your so called way of becoming "more inteligent,and passing it on to future generations" is noble but missguided.
Nobody is perfect,but Jesus and his Father
How would you feel if some new guy showed up on the job after you were done and started telling everyone what a lousy carpenter you were. especialy after that painter got done trashing what you took so much care to do right?
I hope you might reconsider
Sincerley
Rick Sheehan
Cool. I hope your post bears immediate fruit, but it may be shoe dusting time.
While not a real active member of our church I can appreciate the leadership and management brought to your organization by the pastor. He's already given more than the cost of the parsonage, that's for sure.
However, I'd be more in favor of rallying the church membership and using church funds to build a house at cost and finance it through the church, much like Habitat does. This isn't to provide a financial benefit to either the church or paster, but to simplify the eventual transition of his eventual replacement.
Maybe next week he gets hit by a bus--what happens to his family? Are they now forced out or do they become tenants? If she remarrys does she have to move then? What about the new pastor? No, those things probably won't happen, but they happen every week and allowing the family to benefit from home ownership seems to be the most equitable since they can then manage what happens to the home when bad things happen.
If he can't be trusted then I'd vote for a parsonage.
Beer was created to give ugly girls a chance.
Edited 2/14/2006 7:30 pm ET by IdahoDon
Wow, I really did rub you the wrong way didn't I? Now personal attack? Nice Christian attitude... WWJD?
Clearly, the only things I know about your church situation are what you posted. Conclusions are solely based on that. Couldn't be anything else. Improper care of your pastor is exactly what you posted. You didn't see it as such, I disagreed. That's a problem? Apparently. You say you want input, but your post belies that. Particularly your personal attack.
I'd given you more credit. But I've been wrong before.
Now, finally, you're saying that you can/will manage investments for him which will enrich his portfolio without detracting from his ministerial duties. My last post clearly said that was an option, but not one that you'd previously embraced. Or perhaps you're changing your position based on that. I don't know. You really should read more carefully before you determine intent. Or, if in doubt, ask. Apparently my last correction of your comprehension didn't make an impression. I'm not attacking you or your church, merely suggesting that your highly esteemed pastor could use more consideration than you'd previously posted. Surely that's not offensive.
I do respect your views, but when they are directed at me as absolutes, refering to my arguments as not holding water they are a problem, and you are wrong.
Seems I need to explain my euphemism. Not holding water means it has holes. Does not mean falsehood. It's not right or wrong, just incomplete. So you accuse me of being wrong? No holes? Reread your posts, my questions, you'll find holes.
You either need to get a grip on reality, or the language. As for respecting my views, you clearly do not. Nor are you welcoming any idea contrary to your preconceived one of exemplary pastor care. Your own quotations from my post clearly state that I was not making absolutes. Read them again. But try it with an open mind this time, which you accuse me of not having. I wrote there were viable alternatives to homeownership by the pastor if your congregation will undertake the effort.
We are not most and should not be compared with your Church experience.
That could be, but you have yet to explain how you are different. I notice you keep referring to my church experience even after I pointed out that it wasn't only that I was writing about, but a broad example, multi-denominational. Unfortunately, you still have not given a reasonable explanation for building a parsonage, leaving my assumption of your congregation feeling good intact. Clearly it's none of my business, but you were responsible for this thread and chose to address my admittedly off topic subject. I sincerely hope it's not simply a huge ego on your part. But you're making me wonder...
Vaya con dios.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!