Here’s a classic. I’m taking over the basement finishing job on an architects house because the “contractor” whom he initially hired went out of business. Let me first say I wouldn’t have taken on this disaster if it were not for lucrative referrals upon resurrection. Here’s where I can use the great minds of this forum:
The drywall intersections (ceiling to wall and inside corners) were not taped!!! They were stuffed with globs of joint compound and primed (anyone still wonder why he’s out of business?). This was done 3 months ago and needless to say the joints have all cracked open. Does anyone have any experience with a proven method for “extracting” the compound from the joints so they can be done properly?
While I’m here, I’m open to suggestions from the field on tackling the sagging seams on the ceiling drywall joints which appear to be the result of the drywall being hung parallel to the ceiling joists rather than perpendicular thus creating 8′ long seams between joists. Again, the job is to the primer stage already and the client would rather not have tear everything out and start over. Any insight would greatly appreciated.
Replies
Welcome to the forum, where everybody has an opinion on something, and everybody is an expert on your project.
For the ceiling-wall joints, how about covering up the problem with crown or another trim? Are you saying that the ceiling joints do not fall on rafters? Did he at least use 5/8 rock? What about layering on some 1/4" or 3/8" rock turned perpendicular?
if it were not for lucrative referrals upon resurrection. Are you counting your chickens before they hatch? What kind of relationship do you have with the architect before this came up?
I didn't know him. He 's designing a showroom for one of comm'l customers whom I just completed a ton of work for. He saw the work and hired me before even discussing price. In fact, he's already come through with 1 referral. Nothings guaranteed, but my odds certainly go up if I walk out of there with a game-saver.
Thanks for the suggestions and the welcome.
that's just my 2 cents...you're probably well advised to wait for an opinion from a better expurt, like The Mighty Piff.
Hired before discussing price...in other words he knew it was screwed up badly, and he needed a sucker...oops, I mean a skilled craftsman...to try to wave a magic wand :)
Edited 2/6/2003 12:02:32 AM ET by ELCID72
i'd overlay the ceiling with 3/8 and then retape all of the joints and intersections... don't even try to scrape the ceiling / wall intersections...
in the corners try wetting and scraping .. unless he used a setting compound , in which case you are thoroughly scr*wed....
I think he said that the rock had ben primed. Wouldn't that pretty much seal the the mud so it couldn't be wetted and cleaned?
.........Pretty much. Thats why I referred to the final results as a "game-saver". If you must know, his exact words on his expectations are as follows "speaking in scholastic terms, what I'm HOPING for here at this point, is a passing grade. When I first set out on this I was expecting a B+ or better, now I'm praying for a D-". This from an accomplished architect. Maybe now you have the full scope of the status of things.
take a 4" angle grinder with a fistfull of 80 grit disks and hog out enough mud in the corners to tape and finish properly - -the ceiling sounds tough - are there lights in it? you could fur and re-rock, altho it would probably be just as easy to remove the ceiling rock and do it properly
Edited 2/6/2003 9:39:17 AM ET by David Doud
Your suggestions are similar to my assumptions as to how to proceed with the inside corners. I simply cannot think of another way to go about it. As for the ceiling, the high hat pots are already in (not trimmed). Tell me what you (and anyone else whose willing to chime in here) think of this re: the ceiling: I cut out the rock right down the middle of the 2 joists (precision cut of course) that flank each side of where the bad joints are sagging. Then put in a solid piece glued and screwed joist to joist.
The house is 15 yrs old so the dramatic settling of the house should be done to the extent that the joints on the joists won't crack?????????
Any thoughts??????????
Uh oh.
I smell money burning. Do you guys smell that?
I smell it but the fire was kindled way back when the archy client first selected the out-of-business guy to do the work, probably based on cheap price. That updraft created a vacumn that is now sucking other money into it..
Excellence is its own reward!
The smolder may turn into an open flame when he sees what is under the wallboard.
Yeah, "Ooops, Maybe we should've covered this up deeper"
;)
I'll shoot a newer picture than this next week showing with crown. I replaced a sagging plaster with beaded board here. I don't know car siding..
Excellence is its own reward!
Seems to me there's no way to fix the ceiling drywall if it was hung incorrectly. Adding another layer will just complicate things. I'd say it has to come out.
If you were going to shoot a mime, would you use a silencer?
I AM NOT A DRYWALLER.
In fact the closes that I have come is to cut a couple of holes for some access and then replacing the pieces using some backing. And then a friend of mine that does commercial DW did the mud and taping.
But what do you thing of this. for the long unsupported ceiling joints treat them like a repair patch. Cut some strips of 1/2 plywood say 3" wide. Then cut enough holes in the ceiling to get the strips up behind the joints and then scew the two sides into the strips.
Thanks for the input Bill. There's a backing device used on walls to strengthen and pull in butt joints which you can make yourself (shown in Myron Fergusons book "Drywall" 2nd edition) or they can be purchased. That device and your suggestion both require me to start hacking away at the existing problem to slide the backing behind the rock. That dilemma is what has me leaning towards just cutting the bad joints out all together from the flanking joists. It creates double the joints but at least they'll be properly done in the end.
If I understand your thought of cutting back the rock to the next available joist it seems you would be cutting out 50% of the ceiling plus a lot of trouble for the straigt cuts. I would take it out and start over before I cut back to the joists.
who's next?
Just a few thoughts:
1. D- work should never be a goal/ acceptable product you give to anyone. Everyone else who sees this work won't factor-in that this is what was agreed to.
2. HO and Archs have different perspectives than a Tradesperson does as to what is the method for properly "fixing"/ addressing a condition. Don't let a HO/ Arch's dictate yours.
3. Don't even think of using a grinder to remove the excess compound at the corners. You will create so much dust - not healthy - and it will get everywhere in the house and your tools. It will also weaken the GWB's fastening to the ceiling. The GWB's paper face is required to fasten properly. Otherwise the GWB WILL eventually sag/ fall.
4. My first knee jerk solution was to resheath the ceiling using 1/4" or 3/8" GWB applied perpendicular to the joists/ current sheathing. Pretty easy except for the FACT that you will be constantly searching for the joists. Even if you snap lines before hand - think of the Time and What you will be using as a referance - you will be wrong 25% of the time. That's a lot - time and frustration. The taping will always include some fudging/ feathering and before you know it you will be skimming the whole ceiling.
5. Rip the $hit down. It will take about 2 - 3 hrs to do the demo and remove it in bags or cans. Resheath properly and then tape as usual. I find that whenever I stick to my SYSTEM - the way I usually work - I am faster and better at whatever I do. This method will give your best results but most importantly to the Arch/ HO, you will be in and out in record time. Plus, though the material cost will be greater, the labor cost/ time will be less.
F
WHOA! I haven't read all of your response but I couldn't get past your misunderstanding of the D- work comment. Let me make perfectly clear I don't consider ANY job complete to my standards until its A or better. Stating what the client said was strictly for the purpose of showing his observation, as a professional, of the how bad his current situation is.
My range of work is pretty small, C- in emergecy rental applications to at best B+ on my best days of high end work.
Either I'm to self critical or just realistic.
Clay GJLC.
I'm just maddeningly anal about every little detail.
If the original joints are pretty gobberedup you could take and sand the rough gobber areas with say 60 or 80 d grit on a porter cable pad sandera(333/334) I use that all the time with PC rt angle sanders hose system to the shop vac and it can be done with not to much dust escaping, plus with the corser grit you get less powder.
Clay
Speaking of powder I gotta get, to finish sanding a 65 sheet job thats almost there.
How about 4 x 6 GWB? You should be able to get this down any stairway. It's easier to install on ceilings due to size and butt joints are in between the joists. Perfect for one person jobs in tight quarters. More taping, but not much.
Any other way and you're always playing catch-up or patch-up. Drives me crazy, but maybe your more tolerant.
Interesting. At the risk of sounding uninformed, I wasn't aware of 4x6 rock off the rack. Maybe its my local market but here in Westchester/Putnam County NY you have to travel almost an hour to track down someone who sells 1/4" thick rock.
Even if you had to buy 12's, just cut it down the middle and fold it back. To keep it as a single sheet by just unfolding it though would require 2 people to do the install. It might just be better to cut it all the way through.
Good suggestion. I'll keep that in my quiver. I've got 3 weeks before I start so I can mull over every alternative.
get a plasterer in... cover the rock with one of the mesh binders, and skim coat everything...
Ya, that's good.
A basement ceiling? Moving drywall down the stairs complexes things?
Leave the drywall as is and cover it with the 8 ft 1/4inch cedar t&g stuff they sell in wrapped plastic packages of 6 to a pack and be done with it. Quick and might even look good.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
The other...proper application of risk.
Tjhe actuall dimension of that stuff is 3/16" and I would never use it again, especialy if it needs to hold up the sagging ceiling SR.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Then what about adding furring strips to gap the beadboard from the gwb? And/or get better quality beadboard. Is that the same as car siding?
I had a lessen in this today,
Piffin could probably answer better, Car siding is not the same as beadboard
Car siding was used on rail road cars, it has a grove down the center instead of bead detail or "beadborard"
at least thats whats the boss told me today when I called car siding "ugly beadborard"
Oh yes, I forgot about sagging drywall. Definitely no strength to the things.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
The other...proper application of risk.
taylorsdad,
I see a grid of routed edged 1x4's. Kinda like a coffered ceiling. Maybe an archiwreck could design something.
KK
There was one thing I failed to mention as far as the option to rip it out and do it over. In order to get the 4x8 sheets to the basement, a wall has to be knocked down. Its below ground level and he has no other access other than from the inside stairway. His stairs turn 180 degrees and they're too narrow to make the turn with rock. Before the other fella went out of business, he replaced the wall he knocked down to get the original material down there. So the client would have to ante up for new material for the ceiling, the wall, and my labor in tearing down and replacing the wall and studs.
Now you know why I've come to the all knowledgable forum for brainstorming. I respect every opinion that comes across the wire here and for this job, I need to hear them!
As far as the ceiling/ wall joints that are not taped I would tape em and mud emm, float the finish coat out and big deal you've got very minor fat corners and joints, not worse then any you look at in many cases. If you take the time when you float it out I'd say you could get to B grade with out to much extra work. And as far as the cieling joints that arn't supported? wavy. I gotta go back to your original post. If there not taped tape em and again float out a nice finish. as long as there supported on both sides with the joist, there not going any ware. Use the big finishg mud knives to float out and if your pretty good mudding you can get at least a B. More float more sanding B+. The eye tells the story not the history of the mechanics.
Clay GJLC.
Read all the other posts and I have to agree with the idea of removing the ceiling and starting over. You'll waste a tremendous amount of time trying to fix it and in the end it still won't be "right". 4x6 sheets if you have to, hang it right, tape it and be done with it. It'll be faster, cheaper, and everyone will be happier in the end. Now for the inside wall corners, I've had the same problem before. Took a 2 1/2 " wide Sandvik brand carbide scraper (the one with the extra knob on the top) and ran it down each side of the corner with some light pressure. Because your scraping and not sanding the dust isn't bad. With the paint off, spray the compound with water, wait a minute and wait for the mud to soften, then just scrape it all off with a stiff 3" knife, and sponge the corner clean. Worked very well for me on a 12 x 18 living room. Hope this helps! BUIC
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I appreciate every idea that everyone takes the time to submit, but this is what I was hoping to ferret out - someone whose actually had to do it before - I knew I couldn't be the only guy in the country whose ever had to deal with this. There's no substitute for hands-on experience! I may e-mail you again for clarification.
Anytime, you can reach me at pfcarp@aol - feel free to drop me your phone # if that would be better for you. BUIC
Just a thought, how about covering the joints with crown molding? This may work if the joints don't exend to far out from the corner. Client may like the look
I'm actually going to run that thought by the client on monday (job isn't starting for another 2 weeks). Thing is, the more I think about this, the more I want to just rip out the existing ceiling due to the sagging from the rock being put up the wrong direction. If I do that, then I'll be re-doing the ceiling-wall joints anyway. Hard to believe that almost sounds like a bonus at this point!
40 watt bulbs......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
"While I'm here, I'm open to suggestions from the field on tackling the sagging seams on the ceiling drywall joints which appear to be the result of the drywall being hung parallel to the ceiling joists rather than perpendicular thus creating 8' long seams between joists."
The ceiling has to come down . How else would you fix it other than beams? Sanding the mud down to flat is no big deal, but it will be butt finishing after that and needs a pro. A pro can make short work of the job on the finishing aspect. I dont like the ceiling problem well enough to keep it .
Tim Mooney
Hmmmm, I wonder if a nice drop ceiling would work in this situation?
Just a thought....
Redo-it