close for discussion… bouncy floor?
Sysop …
You’ve got to be kidding me!
closing a discussion on framing?
what the hell are we here for?
if not to argue the finer points of building.
please tell me … what in there warrented closing the discussion?
who ever close it has no clue what this place is about.
one thing for sure … a great way to limit the fights is to get everyone to leave.
btw …
Mr T … I think … I got that same info in class.
blocking/bridging doesn’t do much of anything … aside from inviting squeaks.
To all
How about ignoring code .. the minimums … and actually building a floor that doesn’t need blocking/bridging?
code plus. not a new idea.
and …T and G floor sheathing.
and …
closed for discussion!
This place really sucks lately.
Who’s on the button?
What’s the matter … U never fought with a buddy?
Get a grip dude/chick.
Pretty soon … the forums will go the way of the mag.
down hill.
DIY forever.
Jeff
Edited 10/31/2004 1:21 am ET by Jeff J. Buck
Replies
It's true. I just wrote something dealing the same and somehow I deleted when meaning to post.
On a Saturday night no less sometime after Darcy's 12:41 am post and 1:40am. Couldn't believe it.
Was starting to remind be a bit like the old pre-prospero days when I would lurk and marvel at the guys rapping.
Here we have so ol' framers talking shop on a builder's forum as they have so many times before and hopefully will again and someone decides to close the post.
It wasn't out of control or anywhere's near it. Kind of makes it more of a chitchat room than a builder's forum. Stifles creativity and removes some of the class this place can carry by being real with expression.
They can let polijive threads run rampant to the point where someone recommends the killing of a president and still do nothing, but let a little normal feisty talk show itself and they shiitcan it.
Someone pushed the button too quick on this one and it really sucks. Someone needs to fry for this.
I'm betting Walker's getting too much influence behind the scenes and someone's listening to his prattle.
again ... I agree.
100%.
on both posts.
That "close for discussion" thread ..... is a great example of why the whole "fest" idea started and took off.
a bunch of guys that disagree ... all getting together ... to see what's up.
PeteFest was either gonna be a blast ... or a brawl.
fast forward how ever many years .... ok ... 4.5 because next summer will the the big 5 year anniversary ... and it's all shot to hell.
at least for this weekend.
maybe if I call ya an a$$clown it'll flag down the idgit that close down that thread?
Jeff
sure wish I could have seen it.............
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=49102.1
it's still here.
Jeff
Looks like it was full of good information.
Floor Joist span data from the Canadian Wood Council's "The Span Book", 1995 ed.
This is the span reference in our town's bldg. dept. It is consistent with the span tables in the National Building Code of Canada. I believe this data speaks to the issue in dispute.
All spans below for 2x10 Hem-Fir, No.1&2, with 5/8" subfloor, 16"o.c. :
1. Nailed subfloor, with strapping: 13'8"
2. Nailed subfloor, with bridging: 14'4"
3. Nailed subfloor, with bridging & strapping: 14'10"
4. Nailed & glued subfloor, with strapping:15'1"
5. Nailed & glued subfloor, with bridging: 15'10"
6. Nailed and glued subfloor, with bridging & strapping: 16'4"
Interesting -- thank you.
That's quite an increase in permissible span with nailing, gluing, bridging and strapping. Certainly proves wrong the poster who said bridging offers no benefit.
IanDG
Edited 10/31/2004 7:38 am ET by IanDG
It proves one thing Ian...that a span table exists that shows an increase in spans.
I've been seeking that type of span chart for years...now that I found one..the sysops yanked the thread...before I was able to determine the source and engineering studies. We don't know if that table was created using scientific testing methods or if Gabe simply wrote it.
The Canadiens have a tendency to overbuild. It might be because they have a lot more lumber per capita than us. For instance, they require osb to be horizontally installed and blocked at the seams (or at least they used to...codes sometimes change). That type of sheer wall framing is not needed nor required here in the states.
I stand by my original statement. If the builder is truly concerned about bounciness, he will use 2x12s. ON 2x12s, bridging is required to prevent roll. If the builder is willing to save a few bucks in his building design, I'm not willing to put in any EXTRA labor, which comes out of our "best price". I do put in cross bridging if specifically requested. In fact, we are very accomdating and will do almost anything (once) for a builder and/or homeowner. We don't normally go beyond the minimum code requirements becasue the code actually is substantially correct and delivers a solid residential product.
And don't even start talking about doing more....I will always be able to up the ante and ask you why you don't do more...like putting in titanium studs....
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
Blue, think about all the time you have wasted sitting at your PC reading and posting about all this span and bridging BS.
In less that all that time, you could have bridge-blocked a couple of floor sections in something you are building, and done some before and after jumping to get a feel for what happens.
Your right Bob....I'm such a screw up.
I'm going to make a Holloween promise to put extra rows of bridging on all spans over 30 feet!
blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.
END OF ALERT!
now that I found one..the sysops yanked the thread...before I was able to determine the source and engineering studies.
I don't see your problem -- the information on where to find the span tables has been posted by pierre in post 9 in this thread. It was still there 2 minutes ago.
No one can show me a chart which changes the span. No one can show me any technical data that supports the increase in strength.
That was your comment that the span tables address.
Our construction traditionally uses much smaller timber elements -- 2nd floor joists are usually 7" x 2" or 8" x 2" and it is UK code for a row of diagonal bridging or solid blocking every 6' of span to prevent rotation of the joists.
IanDG
I didn't follow the original string of posts Y'all are speaking of but when we get turned off and tuned out, that's when it's time to revolt (at least a little). You guys here should feel happy to have a good place to kick your shoes off with your peers...I went to a site represented by a "code organization" to ask some questions,I got some answers,But I felt like I was in the "wrong church"...The only positive there aside from getting an answer was,if you get answers,there is usually someone there who doesn't get answers and wants to lash out at someone who is sucessfull...Keep this place real,at least if not lively...
Scribe once, cut once!
Quote: "The Canadians have a tendency to overbuild." Oh yeah, well, the Americans... Just kidding.
Blue, I've no idea what climate you build in, and I'd love to hear what the span tables say in American jurisdictions that get a lot of snow.
Anyone here builds houses on ski hills in the East, or in CO, WY, UT, AZ, NV, CA, OR, WA, ID, MT?
The assumption here in Canada is that houses will carry some sort of snowload 6 months of the year. The wind tends to drift the snow onto one side, or in one or two valleys, which results in unevenly loaded structures. Mayby that's why the structural panels are applied horizontally, to increase the shear resistance. Another factor, not so well known, is that most of our population (in Québec, Ontario, British Columbia) live in areas that are siesmically active every now and then.
With respect to snow loads, the real funny in the Canadian Rockies is that architects insist on building complicated roofs with close-set dormers and weird intersecting planes. It is no secret to Breaktime that big city folk with big money like complicated rooflines on their trophy homes. Anyhoo, we get 30' of snowfall in an average year... The snow gets trapped, then slowly transforms into a glacier. Glaciers have tremendous weight and erosive properties. It certainly keeps roofers in the money. The upside is that every now and then a roof unloads on the proud owner's out-of-province SUV. Ouch.
That does explain a lot indeed Pierre! Thank you.
It really isn't overbuilding when you take into account all the facts!
Around here, we don't have any of those worries. I believe we can span 15-5 with 2x10s hem fir and no blocking or bridging.
blue
PS My gramps was called Pierre. My mums was born in Canada too. Thats why I'm so stubborn.Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos!
Hi, that little thin header is ok where it is non bearing in Int const code (ICC)and IRC,a non bearing wall with an opening 8' or less may have a single 2x4 in the flat position...I have called these 'door bucks' And yes these codes even call for 3 2x8's on 2 trimmers on each end for single story to bear only roof and ceilings,in a snow load region, so we have all that too...
Scribe once, cut once!
>> ...now that I found one..the sysops yanked the thread...
The sysops didn't yank the thread. It's still there. Some messages have been deleted, but most of them are still there.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=49102.1
paul.. you're right.. it is still in this folder.. AND they've taken the reply buttons off it so noone can reply to it..
which
means
it
will
slowly
disappear
with no possiblility of bumping it..
darcey and her #### musta done itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
She's just too risque` for this forum, I tell ya!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I used to be such a nice young lady...
that is,
before I started hanging out with yous guys...
I think I know what happened.
A moderator was coming home after stopping for a few LongIsland Teas at the local establishment and on an impulse when driving by the office decided to stop in, check things out and burn a few.
If I remember correctly as it's been 26 years now, he probably had it down to a quarter inch between the extended nails of the thumb and middlefinger while trying to coax the final blast of intensity from that glistening black roach when he burnt his lips and got mad.
Saw the post on the board and one excuse was as good as another, thought he might feel better by extending a bit of control over something and did the deed.
That's all. You're off the hook so no need to sweat it.
By the way, I understand Taunton's coming out with a Breaktime Lite site more suited to your individual taste.
Do you suppose that thread was reported to the moderator by someone?
Do you care to speculate who that might have been?
Does anyone think that the moderator just stumbled across that thread?
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I didn't want to go there again and cause more trouble.
Who knows what's going to happen when they open up for shop tomorrow?
Now who could be such a self appointed moderator?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
don't know.......................................................................................
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........................................................
tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap..................................................
(thinkthinkthinkthinkthinkthinkthink)................................................
it's not like it ever happened before.................................................
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
B.W. maybe?
Naw I doubt that. Thread didn't have anything to blame Bush for.
There wasn't anything in there political.
I think it was just a software glitch.
blueBe cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos!
Blue,
I said that with tongue firmly in cheek.
BTW I have enjoyed your thread on ways to speed things up. The biggest thing I can see in it is your idea of training and depending on your eye instead of relying totally on speed squares etc. They have their place but it is definitely worth developing your eyes to eliminate using those tools for every little thing.
As you pointed out (correctly) ten seconds here and twenty there when multiplied over the course of a whole job adds up.
The other critical point is knowing when it matters and when it doesn't. Not everything has to be perfect. And a lot of times taking the extra time to make something perfect or close to it will not make the house any better. Knowing what is and is not permissible means a lot in terms of time savings.
Professor, you are hitting the nail on the head!
Once you enter this strange realm of lineless cuts, you'll be amazed at how perceptive you become while cutting sheet stock and dimension lumber. For instance, I am fanatical about squaring the foundation sill plates. I then fanatically make sure that the snapped lines of the first floor deck are true to the plates. Why? becasue an out of square line on the end rims causes every one of my cuts to be whacky...it confuse my brain...I cease to have the ability to cut square and clean by eye!
Keeping everything square to the eye becomes automatic. It's like a second nature.
Don't get me wrong..I'm not some kind of super being...occasionally my circuits are all miswired and I either cut everything goofy or I succumb and snap lines and use my square till the sunspots depart. You might know the type of day I'm talking bout...on those days, I can't even figure out where the coffee pot is, or which cupboard the cups are in.
blueBe cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos!
It has a lot to do wirth inborn skills and also with experience. I know this because I can lay a whole roof with no lines straighter than some guys with lines, and I can draw two parralleel lines five inches apart dozwens of times with no more than a sixteen of an ich deviation.
Why? Because I have laid so many shingles at five inches exposure.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I agree with your experience theory.
One reason that I can cut square and straight without lines is because I tried to. I'm willing to bet that 99% of the framers have NOT tried to. I'm also willing to bet that if everyone tried, 90% would be satisfied with their results after a relatively brief training period.
Incidently, I'm horrible on roofs...keeping the shingles lined up..TERRIBLE.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Try snapping a line!
Nope.
Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Blue - you are promoting a valuable skill - lineless cutting. You've made the point that with determination and practice, a guy learns to cut straight without the hindrance of aids. With nothing but his eye and saw. You are a proponent of smart, efficient, fast framing. Your experience has taught you where to save the seconds that add up to days, without compromising the frame's performance and integrity. Drywall and paint cover the rest. Point well made. I need to continue working on applying the concept, to be more adventurous with it.
But isn't roofing another matter? Shingles are to a roof deck what drywall and paint are to a house frame. People expect straight corners in a room. I think they also expect crisp, straight valleys on a roof.
That's why lines are snapped in valleys. Snapped valleys assure the quickest and staightest shingle job possible. They help keep nails where they can go, above the high flow line. Same applies to the shingle caps on a hip. I'd consider making an exception for capping the tallest ridge, where it can not be eye-sighted readily from below or above.
Setting unitary-sized pieces (i.e. cut shingle tabs) to a line is such a breeze though. No time at all is spent sighting up and down the ridge to make sure things are straight...when you're setting to a chalkline. It's so easy to wander as each incremental placement error adds up to an inch you must then correct for. I dunno, Blue, it doesn't take long to snap a valley.
IMVHO, your lineless frame cutting techniques are worth learning and applying. But not to roofing.
Respectfully submitted.
Edit: Thank you for your earlier reply about the Canadian's overbuild bias. Like you, we are a product of our environment. Try eating salt-dried beavertails as your first baby solids and you'd be stubborn too. ;)
Edited 11/1/2004 10:14 pm ET by Pierre1
Edited 11/1/2004 10:30 pm ET by Pierre1
Yes Pierre, I agree with you. Thats why I don't install shingles...I suck at it.
I am pretty good at dimensional ones though....I just overlap them when I get all screwed up!
I just haven't ever developed the "touch" for it.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
always enjoyed beaver
Just in case no one noticed - they have re-instated the original bouncy floor thread with reply buttons.
Does anyone think that the moderator just stumbled across that thread?
yes, I believe that - this is common problem - they moniter the board for mag material -
they have been setting on this board a lot more heavily since the recent outbreak of passion and the point has been made about newby's being scared off, 'misunderstanding' the high regard every poster holds for the other, disguised by that thin veneer of hostility -
not to mention penises....
"there's enough for everyone"
Wha???
There's a peanuts thread zippered up too?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Are you saying BW has a little weewee?
dunno. Doesn't BW stand for big wampum?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
'...depends on what your definition of wampum is.'
Anatomical differences aside, I find it curious that the Moderator has not felt a need to reply to this thread, which was started to protest the closing of that other thread.
Could it be that our fine hosts have decided to take a harder line when technical questions posted in the construction folders devolve into ad hominem attacks of the kind that infest the Tavern?
I am not defending the move, only thinking aloud that it fits with what some here have already inferred about the reasons why Taunton created this forum in the first place. If Taunton consistently enforced a higher standard of courtesy in the construction folders, then one result might be that the posters who want to get personal will head off to the Tavern, which was created for that purpose in the first place.
Performing the job of moderator seems like an overwhelming task for a single person to do. This forum works as well as it does primarily because so many of the regulars make a real effort to be professional and courteous, even while disagreeing passionately. I really respect that self-governance, and it is one of the things that makes this my favorite site.
Politely yours, Bill
Bill no body works on the weekend. Those guys are off.
blueBe cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos!
This thread just goes to show that you can't stop everything you don't agree with, short of ending the whole forum.
They could have stopped this.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Edited 11/2/2004 2:36 am ET by Luka
they did
everyone just thinks they're posting to it._____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Well, you could copy/paste each post into this thread....
"there's enough for everyone"
Jeff,
I take full responsibility, since I made the last post.
It all had to do with pen!s comparing, and nancy-boys in a pissing match, as far as I am concerned.
If these guys were truely interested in having an educational conversation, heck, we might all learn something.
Okay, guys, time to think with your big heads now! <g>
(see mye poust inthe outha threade...)
(and sorry for my very course language here)
well ...
I did notice U were the last poster ...
so it is yer fault.
that aside ...
"If these guys were truely interested in having an educational conversation, heck, we might all learn something."
That's just how the learning aour here happens .... just like in the real world.
listen to a coupla old guys fighting and when ya think U know enough ... join in and prove them both wrong. Some of the most heated conversations can be the most educational.
If threads like that are gonna be pulled ..
we may as well all go over to JLC and seek out the facts, mam, just the facts.
Jeff
You and all your talk of egos and eggos and eros... They couldn't stand the porn in the thread after you showed up!
count me as one absolutely astounded by the missing reply buttons there.
I can't figure it out. Was it because I spoke to blue about a factual comparison of charts and tables? Was it because Mike Smith makes good cod for breakfast? was it because we had a good laugh at Blue cutting Molten off at the knees?
There really was some dang good info being compared there and no boby getting hurt. Somebody is really out to lunch on that call.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Did I really cut molten off at the knees?!
I'm sorry molten...I'll booger you a pair of wooden legs.....where did that old stool go...?
blueBe cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos!
No, you probably didn't but he ended up with a post that had an unfinished sentence at the end of it, making it appear to mischievious minds that he got short cutted before finishing. It was the post where he mentioned this table that demonstrated that bridging, blocking, or strapping does increase allowable spans, so I made a joke that you might have been able to cut him off in mid sentence...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Jeff, I agree.
that thread finally was getting good...technically speaking.
Darcy wasn't rude enough to pull a thread...I saw her post and didn't respond...it just commented on our egos...whoopdeedooo...what else is new?
blue
FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.