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Sir,
I have been reading breaktime for about 6 months, and this is the first time I have felt a need to make a reply. I recently started my own sub-contracting bussiness (interior trim and laminate fabrication). I have been a carpenter for eight years, I am definately undercapitalized, and dont pretend to be a master carpenter. However, I am smart enough to know that there is no future working for companies like yours that treat employees with so little respect. Has it ever occured to you that with a little professionaism towards your employees, you might attract better help?
Trying like hell in Ohio
Rob
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Pete,
I never claimed to know much about running a bussiness, or that I know everything. I am not nearly as smart as you, but I hope that I can, with time, learn to run a sucessful bussiness. As to knowing everything, I am careful not to get in over my head on the jobs I take. I am about three weeks into my startup, and am working every day. Probably not as hard as you, but I am working. I am truly sorry that you have had such rotten luck finding suitable employees-the vast majority of us carpenters are lazy, shiftless, and too dumb to find the jobsite without a detailed map. I southern Ohio, the labor pool is also very tight, and there are a lot of hacks out there, but they tend weed themselves out. If we can agree to disagree, I would like to discuss how you have made your bussiness such a sucess.
P.S.
I dont post on Breaktime because I would rather read what others have to say. Also, generaly I am a nonconfrontational person, and dont need the hassle of protracted arguements.
Thanks,
Rob
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Always enjoy your input Patty...
sign me fiyo to(o), near the stream,
J
*Rob and Scott,Nice to have polite posters with respectful attitudes included in discussions here...Keep it up.Ross, I too would like a to see your code of work if you're willing to email and share.Patrick, the guys here are right...if you have bad employees it's your problem, not theirs...Respect people here and that you hire...You need to be such a great guy to work with that you attract employed people with bad bosses to switch and go to work for you...If you are only hiring unemployed people with no transportation, what are you getting? Exactly what you hired!Near the stream,J
*Jack, I wouldn't mind sharing my employee manual with the folks here, but I'm afraid I'm not very computer literate and am too busy (or lazy?) to figure out how to do an attachment to this message. Either someone can explain to me how it's done, or you could wait a couple more weeks until the old web page is updated, there will be a section that includes the employee manual in it. Briefly, though, a booklet of company policies and procedures not only lets people know what's expected of them, it also spells out what they get in return. I've heard so many stories of employers who nickle and dime their employees, and pay as little in wages and benefits as they can legally get away with, and the guys notice that. If you give just a little respect and pay them in a reasonable way, they'll move heaven and earth for your company. I found that paying high wages is counter-productive, give a guy top dollar and he sometimes gets lazy, self-important, and can afford to take time off whenever he wants.... pay the going rate with the promise of a bonus at the end of the year if the company makes a profit, and you'll see productivity take off... just be sure you give them that bonus if things go well! Anyhow, if you go to http://www.elliott.on.ca , and register with the Netminder thing, it will let you know by e-mail when the new page is up, and you can read the employee manual there. As always, suggestions on the web page are always welcome, both the old and new ones - Thanks!Ross
*Well this thread is finally getting interesting. Welcome newcomers, and I second jacks's motion about sticking with the facts.I've used an employees manual. It worked like a charm. I currently don't have one, but probalby will if I expand.There is some obvious frustation aimed at the multitudee of poor employees. I can sympathize, but will include a warning. Somttimes, your anger permeates your spirit and bleeds through, destroying any chance of keeping quality workers.There are very good emplyees out there, none perfect. A contractor's job is to find them, and match them with a task, and a Builder, that needs the service. It's a fulltime job, until you have the people in place.Once they are there, you now have a nother fulltime task; teaching. Once the lessons are over, continue you trade. Don't bitch about it in the meantime however!If you simply want to do the craft, don't hire!My ex partner and I worked two years without any fulltime employees, and did well. The problem came when he took off his two-three months per year, in the winter/spring to go sailing in the Caribbean, and left me framing those 3000 ft'ers alone!we split, and now I have employees.And I worship the ground that they walk on!No bitchin' if they goof, I goof too! No crying when the gun drops oft the roof, I drop them too. etc.!I won't babysit however! My young men are men, that are self motivated. No one lasts with me if they need coddling, and have to be watched. My guys work the same, if I'm there, ofr not, because they are interested in geting the house done! We are always in a self imposed race to whip the other crews in the sub.Most of the construction type laborers, did not have good work habits in high school. They then cannot qualify for good jobs, and look to the trades as a last resort, to land a good paying job. The problem is, they bring their poor work habits with them, and think that the pay will be automatic!NOT!!!!!!!!!!You earn according to what you know and can accomplish. Some earn more because contractors foolishly think they need laborers. I know that is no true. You can build a large home alone!If they come on my job with poor work habits, they won't see their first coffee break!I refuse to teach young people how to work. However, I will teach young workers how to do carpentry! And pay them well too!Hunger will teach young nonworlers to work. Let them starve!Blue
*DITTOjust sign me Blue
*There was another post where a guy was asking whether he should run his own business or keep working where he was. It seems the advise there would be the same here: 1. Can you make the transition from tradesman to manager. 2. Can you keep the money you make. If you can't do both then do everyone a favor and don't try to run a business. It will just make everyone miserable.The sad fact is that today an employer must be able and willing to teach new employees. Sometimes that even goes to the point of being able to add and subtract. But if you are willing to do that and to treat them decently the workers are there. What is hard is to find good workers who already have the knowledge. Mostly they have already figured out that the only way to make it is to leverage someone else's labor and they are out starting their own businesses.From these posts I have a good idea who I would and would not like to work for, or even be in business with. Attitude is just as important as skill.
*Sounds trite, but I think a good secretary could do a world of good. I was a "secretary" for a contractor for about a year - picked up "emergency" supplies and took them to the site; worked out complaints with customers; even glazed some windows on a job that was behind schedule. Of course, I use the term "secretary"i verybroadly here! There's probably some new-fangled name for what I'm talking about - or maybe not - "customer relations," "handy-person," "wife..." ; )Patty
*Patty,Is this personal's-resume?Near the stream,J
*Jack, huh? Is thisi myresume, is that what you mean? I have a few resumes - in which one are you interested?1. Carpenter's Helper: will stand i quietlyon board so that it may be sawn; will run, through mud, to truck, for tools; willing to play role of extra-bitchy owner for end-of-day punch list; will pick up lunch in a timely manner; will use all power tools except circular saw; specialty is hacking through old walls with crowbar and sawzall (will even look for pipes and wiring beforehand, and remember to turn off electricity); well-versed in phrases such as, "Looks good to me, boss!" and "Man, that is ai nicepiece of work!"(with attendant loud whistle); best of all, no advice and no lip! References: 3 contractors, all husbands, 1 boyfriend2. Webmistress (I love the way that sounds, heh): still learning - "Can We Experiment on a Site fori YOU?"3. Gilder: will make cheap furniture look expensive; will re-gild that flea market frame you found, so your in-laws will think that you have taste; will add that touch of gold to anything for which you have the mon, hon! Choice of real gold or cheesey schlag.4. Photographer: Gimme money, I take pitchers. Is it real Art? Do I care? Published.5. Interior Design Consultant: No degree but a modicum of taste. Keeps up with latest tacky trends. Will do an expensive ageing finish with paint, glazes, and specialty tools, or, a cheap ageing finish, by having a large party in your house, where fried foods will be burned and people will chain smoke for an entire weekend. Also will tell you what to do with that sofa (give it away), that lamp (recover the lampshade withi mysilk fabric), that dying plant (I'll take it), and your husband, if needed. Will wallpaper anything for cheap, except bathrooms with fixtures all ready in place and/or wire shelving everywhere. Bathrooms with "toilet towers" cost extra; added charge is for exhibiting an extreme lack of good taste. Will not do bubble-spewing pink angelfish.6. Fabric Dyeing and Embellishing: Will dye silk, cotton, or linen yardage for use in home decorating: upholstery; pillows; lampshades; curtains and drapery; quilts, duvets, and throws. Exhaust dyeing, printing, shibori dyeing, stamping, beading, drawing, resist dyeing (Do these terms frighten you? That is what they are there for. Can you say "esoteric?") Will do a signed, completely original, never-to-be-used-by-me-again design for lots of extra money. Willi notdye bridesmaid's shoes or their dresses. i Willtell you how to clean your expensive silk for cheap (throw it in the washer).7. Writer/"Riters 'R' Us": Will write anything from an overblown resume to a note of apology to your wife (your personal misspellings included at no charge; poor syntax extra). We also do poetry for those special occasions; some sample titles: "It Was Not Good For Me" "My Phone's Not Broken, Is Your Dialing Finger?" "Darling, To U On Our Very First 24-Hour Anniversary" "I Bought That Truck and Now Yer Engine's Overheatin." Let us show you the power of wordage! Verbosity our Specialty!8. Violin for Hire: Will take teens' allowances and lunch money to come into your parents home and give a vioin "practice session." (So how badly do youi notwant to take those lessons, huh?)Sorry you asked, Jack? ; )
*... it would be hard to add to that ... :)
*fiyo...you're a true renaisance woman!Do you dye cats or rugs...how bout fiddlin, dyin and drinkin near the stream...gonna have to send you My Stony Creek Band CD...Near the stream lining up projects a plenty,J
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I have had an idea that has been brewing in my head from reading the posts here. A code of ethics governing the quality of the work that we do. If we all were to live up to this code of quality and advertise the fact, would we not keep the lousy and poor contractors out of the game thus increasing our business?
Your thoughts.
*The lousy carpenters keep themselves out of the game all on their own. Those who have talent will always succeed if they work smart. If you are talking an association of premium contractors, it could be a good thing...or bad. A small group will work, a large group would simply be another beurocracy or union. A small group can pool their marketting resources etc, group insurance. Lofty ideas but with the typical lack of professionalism in the trade presently...probably wouldn't work. Are you aware that Architects have a code of conduct. Included in it, if an architect cannot come to terms for whatever reason with his client(he has already commenced working on the job), no other architect can or will, knowingly, take the job over. Interesting. You mean like that? I'm not sure. I think,"it all works out in the end"L
*There will always be the big bell curve of quality in this industry. A few hacks, a few high-end, the remainder hovering near average.Any profession that requires the upfront costs of only a hammer and toolbelt, where homeowners can be persuaded to put up big bucks in the workers pocket before the first nail has been hammered is prone to bottom-feeders.I started on a list of how to minimize problems, and what I wrote turned my stomach...fees, regulations, paperwork etc, intended to weed out some, but would simply drive up costs for the "good guys" and still be skirted by the "bad guys".The ultimate quality assurance program is an informed consumer who qualifies prospective contractors and doesn't immediately latch on to the lowest price. The lowest price can still be quality work, which is where contractor qualification comes in...references, lumberyard financials, etc.
*On the old TOH threads, we had a running debate about what contractors could do to help homeowners distinguish the good from the bad. The bottom line eventually ended up with everybody complaining about homeowners and homeowners complaining about contractors, so it never developed any real way to help the situation.I think that industry groups with standards for admission would at least be able to provide homeowners with some indication that the contractor has minimum qualifications. But contractors are lone wolves, and don't like having to agree with one another. Sometimes, they don't even want to agree with themselves.But the problem remains: You can't tell the good from the bad by price. Recommendations can help, but one job doesn't necessarily relate to another. So, what can be done?SHG
*I believe in the importance of references and other background research, but from what I hear these days a homeowner feels lucky if a contractor even returns a call. The one thing I always look for the hardest is integrity. Ask enough careful questions and most of the bozos will reveal themselves. An average but honest tradesman will by his very nature make good on his screw-ups.So a medium-length interview with the person is crucial (if I'm good, and i'm learning, they don't realize they're being interviewed). I would never agree to hand over the full price at the outset -- if bargaining power is lacking at the front end (because the economy is keeping everyone busy) reserve it for the back. Don't let either side have all the cards unless you already have a bulletproof relationship based on trust (and I envy the ones that do!).
*I Think what I was thinking was more like the Bavarian Purity Law in brewing what it says is that you can only use hopps barley malt and yeast while not all brewers go by this I always look for a referance to this when I buy beer so that even though I may not know the brand I know that it will be quailty. It seems to me that the public does not know how to find a quality person without some sort of guide. Am i making any scince?
*I have tossed this very issue around in my head for a long time. While I think I always come up short of the ideal, I think the best answer to this is a contractor's reputation. This automatically weeds out the butchers because those type either have a bad rep or they don't last long enough to gain a rep.Coupled with a contractor's reputation for good work is the informed consumer. Mongo mentioned the value of the knowledgable buyer. I don't mind sharing the information and informing the consumer, to a point, but I expect they should have some knowledge up front, before they contact me. I'm losing money when I have to spend time to bring a client up to speed.This speaks of the second half of the equation: how do consumers know they are getting the quality they want? They must know what it is they want and they should have some idea of how to get there from here. A silver tongued contractor could take the shirt off the back of an uninformed client and have him thanking him for it.To directly answer the question of the original post, the answer is to be found in the character of the individual(s) of the const. company. It begins to sound like the Boy Scout oath, I know, but it is really the individual you are hiring.My chief product is really a service. The service is my performance. My performance dictates what kind of reputation I have. How you know is by word-of-mouth. In fact, I don't even advertise any longer. For the money paid out, the results were dismal and most of my work is w-o-m anyway.One last thing: we all screw up, it's how one addressess the problem that makes or breaks a contractor.
*What I find peculiar about most homeowners/buyers is their lack of interest in doing the research about the product they are buying or the person/company they are hiring. Most people in my experience will spend more time buying a car or truck than a house even though the house is probably the biggest investment of their lives. Buyers seem to be more concerned with curb appeal, paint colours and floor coverings than quality workmanship. As long as this is the case, the hackers and fly by nighter's will flourish. It's all based on supply and demand. If consumers would do a little research, ask the right questions they would see the garbage for what it really is, and not buy it. But what do you expect from an industry where the builder or general contractor doesn't even have to be licensed. Plumbers and electricians have to be licensed and even post bonds in my area. They screw up they lose their license and the bond goes to the project to fix the problem. No license no permit!I always offer references to my clients. It always surprises me when they never check them.Taking pride in what I do!
*Stubby. Moralists need codes of ethics. A moral person does not.GeneL.
*But Gene, morality is in the eyes of the beholder. Not too many people think that they're screwing people, but reasonable people may still disagree. The only way a moral person, a person who truly believes that they do the right thing (and when they don't, they truly believe the other guy is wrong) can judge and be judged is by some quantifiable standard.So the quesiton remains, what is the standard by which we are to be judged, and how to relate that standard to the rest of the world.SHG
*Unfortunately most home buyers really don't know enough to make good quality decisions about what they are buying. Couple that with the "I'm the builder and you are just an ignorant homeowner" attitude that too many contractors have and the result is that the homebuyer just gives up.I have seen efforts at enforcing quality control in several trades and professions. Most of the time the result is protectionism for those who are approved over the newcomers who want in, or higher prices to the consumer without an apparent correlation in value.If you can solve that nut I'll put you in for a Nobel, or maybe just a Noble, prize.
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Joseph FuscoView Image
*Uh-oh ... sliding into the metaphysical again ...Gene, surely some moralists are inadvertantly moral? I doubt it, but there must be a few? If so, none is working in DC right now. :)
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Joseph FuscoView Image
*Joe,You've said it for me here word for word and dollar for dollar.Near the stream, J
*There is little that can be done. Most problems arise from greed, so to speak, with homeowners trying to save a buck by strictly price shopping. Another primary factor is that most homeowners are not experienced in the area of home improvement shopping. It is not something they need to do on a regular basis so they don't know what to look for, ask for or expect.I am hardly the lowest price that homeowners usually get but I sell myself over the job. I come across as very straight forward and honest. I give a lot of ideas and provide photos of other jobs (which is a great sales tool) where I show them the difference between the quality of my work and the next guys. I never pressure a customer to sign now or call them everyday to see if they are ready to sign a contract. I simply give them my honest assesment and a price and tehn let them make the next move. I do however send a follow-up to each estimate on the very next day. this is a card thanking them for the opportunity to bid their project and assuring them of the quality I produce. It also seems to yield great results.There is still no escape from the price shoppers who usually get what they deserve... a cheap price and nothing more. The only thing I hate worse are DIY hacks.Pete Draganic
*I think there is a natural progression to these things.A young person enters this business and he is probably under-capitalized,under-experienced,under-pricing established tradesmen&maybe over optomistic.If he is good,he often can provide some real bargains for homeowners as he tries to make a name for himself.If he is not so good he can turn out some real botch jobs. Buyer beware.But fast forward 10-20 years.Now this guy is not so young.He has some working capital,proper equipment(maybe even a tool addiction),lots of experience and much higher prices based on realistic conditions.He is even beginning to complain a little about fly-by nighters and johnny-come lateleys under cutting his reputatable and established business.(or he has fallen on his face and is out of business)I think it is mostly a matter of survival of the fittest.We all had to start somewhere.This could also be why some older guys have "out-sized egos" and some of the younger guys seem like "cocky punks".Huge amounts of self confidence is a tool of the tradeGood Luck,Stephen
*Gene, I think you and I have found some common ground!Blue
*Joe! Sign me blue too, on that one!Blue
*Good point Stephen. One of the ways to keep the rookies from starting their own business is to pay them well enough so that they stay employees! That might scare some of you, but think about it. Do you treat your employees the way you wanted to be treated?Blue
*You're forgetting all the griping about employees making more than the employer!
*Most of my employees, past and present, are hardly smart enough to remain employees, let alone start their own business.Pete Draganic
*Sir,I have been reading breaktime for about 6 months, and this is the first time I have felt a need to make a reply. I recently started my own sub-contracting bussiness (interior trim and laminate fabrication). I have been a carpenter for eight years, I am definately undercapitalized, and dont pretend to be a master carpenter. However, I am smart enough to know that there is no future working for companies like yours that treat employees with so little respect. Has it ever occured to you that with a little professionaism towards your employees, you might attract better help?Trying like hell in OhioRob
*Whoa, Rob. While Pete's comment (12.0) seems somewhat askew, he does make two valid points. One, he speaks of his employees not staying with the company because they don't realize how good they have it. Perhaps they think they could go out on their own and make all that money the employer is making, after all, they have all the tools... Two, what does the average employee know about running a business? Just thinking you know how is by far not enough.Been there, ...
*Rob,You remind me of one fella in particular (his name was Rob too) that I fired last summer that, in his words, "could build a house from the ground up". He couldn't even resheath a roof. Real cocky know-it-all know-nothing who now works at a hardware store.If you've been reading breaktime for 6 months, why havn't you responded until now? Don't know enough to give some advice, exchange some ideas? If you knew much about running a business, particularly a construction business and in northern Ohio, You would also know that the poole of potential employees in the trades is not that vast or valuable. Some days it seems I'm just happy that they show up. These are guys that take home 500 on friday and are bumming lunch money on monday morning. Can't hold onto a driver's license or keep insurance (if they even have a car). Half the time I should be back charging them for the babysitting service I provide to them.Hardly anyone knows what an honest day's work is anymore. These people can't even think for themselves and apply a little ingenuity to a situation. Most employees are nearly worthless although I have had a few gems. I mean real jewels. Guys that would have what I needed ready before I asked for it. But believe you me, they are hard to come by.Thriving in Ohio,(Cuz I know how to work!)Pete Draganic
*Pete, My life has been so much better since I gave up babysitting. I don't care how good someone is, if they show up reeking of booze or homegrown, can't say a sentence without swearing, or whine about how they can't get by on $25 G's a year as they borrow all my tools because they "can't afford" to buy a hammer, I get rid of them, just like that. It took me 6 years to figure out I don't owe anyone a job. Got a fantastic crew now, and I don't pay people twice anymore to screw things up and then fix them... making money finally too! I also get rid of anyone who bitches and complains constantly, bad for morale for the guys who like their job. If employees want respect, then they'd best be respectable :)Ross
*Oh, and by the way, I finally put that employee manual together, talk about a Code of Work, now everyone knows exactly what this company is all about and what is expected of them. If you don't make it clear from the outset what you expect of your people, they think you're picking on them personally when you call something to their attention. If they had any doubts about the quality of work expected and the code of conduct they are to follow before they first set foot on my jobsite, the employee manual sets them straight. Should have done it long ago!
*Pete, unfortunately, it is not just Ohio that has the corner on substandard workers. Everytime I talk business with anyone I always throw in my question. "What kind of labor pool do you have?" From North Carolina to Montana to New Mexico and Arizona, Washington to south California, the answer is always the same: there is a serious shortage of skilled workers.Standards? What standards, we don't need no stinking standards!
*It's the same everywhere, and in most professions: most people entering the job market are unprepared for "real life." I like the idea that one high school here in New Orleans implemented: mini-courses on applying for a job, going for an interview, buying a house, opening a checking account, buying a used car, renting an apartment, legal rights, medical care, etc. Of course, it was one of those "experimental" schools, and I'm not sure it was done in any other school, but my daughters who took the courses even taught me a thing or two!We can bitch and moan about the state of the country, but, the truth is, single parent households, both parents working, money worries - all these things put some of the basics in an "I'll talk to them later about it..." category. Many, many young people are unaware of the basics of living - and I'm talking college grads, too.I definitely believe that the most important things should be learned at home, but if they aren't, then we, as a community, should see that the schools, ideally with the help of volunteer professionals, teach those things to the kids. It will, ultimately, affect all of us in some way.Patty, who is now getting ready to volunteer, since typing this has made her feel guilty
*... and with record low unemployment, people can move up the ladder a bit (though perhaps not for much more money) leaving the real hardcore dregs openings to apply for. Like when you pour too much wine out of an old bottle. Americans work much harder than people in most countries, and harder than they did in the last few decades. You don't want to hear what a standard vacation is in Europe, where they have to reduce hours to keep enough people employed.
*Andrew: "Americans are working harder..." Couldn't agree with you more. Funny thing, all through school, they were telling me that, with the advent of new technologies, we will be able to devout more and more time to leisure. So, here we are, in the future, and what do we have but more and more work to keep the income stream from running dry. But the economy is booming. Sheez!
*Working harder because it is tougher to make a living. Lots of well paying jobs being replaced with low paying one's. The folks at the top are getting fewer in number but have more money. NOT a complaint, just an observation.It seems to me the folks who lurk here are in very good shape to benefit. Most have skills, work for themselves or own the business and are bright enough to realize that if a person wants to eat in old age they must plan ahead.
*Pete, As long as there are guys like you around that know it all, we can rest assured that whenever the need for some information arises (or doesn't) you will step forward and share your boundless wisdom with us. If you have been in this business as long as you claim and still have not been able to put together a group of quality employees you may want to take a little closer look at the way you treat your help. Your lack of respect for others is glaringly apparent in not only your most recent posts, but also in many of your others. Babysitting service...nobody knows what a good days work is...can't think for themselves... Wow Pete I haven't heard whining like that since the bearings went on one of my routers.In this business, like most others, lousy employers seem to be plagued with lousy employees.I worked for a guy like you once,for about four hours... Now that I have my own business I treat my employees and the sub-contractors that I use with respect.Amazingly, I don't have any of the same problems that you seem so prone to.HAVE A NICE DAY UNLESS YOU'VE MADE OTHER PLANS. Scott
*Fred, yeah, my Dad asked, "How's bidness?" a couple of years ago. This was when I was in escrow on a house, trying to sell the other house, buying a new truck, and had 8 employees. I said I couldn't afford any days off. He then wondered outloud why I couldn't run a business the right way. He figured if I was short of cash on hand and putting a miniscule amount in savings, I must be slacking. Hahaha, I was working 6, 12-15 hour days/week.
*I'll Have to agree with Pete the poole of labor is not their. I am an employee and have had to put up with alot of shi* workers. My last foreman Drank a 60 a week at work with the boss. The other two dog f#$ked (their words)all day and distryeed tools because they weren't theirs,ect.ect. I finally got out of there to start on a new crew on Monday. Ross If you can Email or fax me a copy of your code I would like to see it.