I was in Italy recently and stayed in a hotel that had plastered walls where the plasterers had mixed color into the plaster, not evenly but sort of like a chocolate and vanilla cake where the two are just slightly mixed and then baked. It was beautiful. So smooth it shined but the color was clearly in the plaster. Has anyone ever heard of this being done with mud, especially hot mud? I read the contents of a bag of 90 minute hot mud and it was 40% plaster of Paris. I suppose the swirled effect should be left to the pros but if the color were thoroughly mixed it should leave a consistent color. I suppose I could experiment and if it looked bad just paint over it but I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this technique?
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Replies
I've never seen it but in theory it should be similar to colored concrete.
Do a search for venetian plaster or scagolia. Venetian plaster, even though now called venetian, go back to ancient Egypt and Syria (Asyria, never did understand the A). You can also do this now with the veneer plasters that are available, but they will not have the shine of the decorative plasters. There are also easy to use synthetics for doing this.
This is what I primarily do for a living now, what do you want to know?
Don
Here's a picture from a dining room I'm working on now. Sorry, the quality is not very good.
Don
Nice. I've gotten similar looking walls using structolite mixed with 20% lime.what the heck was I thinking?
Heck,
Strucolite gaged with lime is a good mix. What did you use to color it? The lime makes it tricky depending on how hot it is. The hotter limes will slowly eat away at all but the natural oxides. This kind of limits you to earth tones. Some of the premixed stuff like Texstons marmorino is cool enough that normal uct's can be used, so the color range is almost limitless. The only problem here is the plaster will only take up so much colorant, and then it gets too watery. It dries fine, but doesn't cure worth a darn.
Don
Don,
I am a plastering neophyte, just a contractor that lives in the sticks and has to improvise with the products we have easily available. All the other people that I know do some plaster work around here are plaster amateurs, part-timers like me.
My first try at plaster was with structolite(what the lumber yard said everybody used) 2 coats, and then a finish coat of red top.Quite a learning curve,especially with the really hot red top.My helpers thought they could speed things up and placed two bags of red top finishing plaster mix in the concrete mixer!Took about a minute to realize that was a mistake,and quite a bit longer to clean up the mess.
Since then, I have experimented with the structolite/lime/colorant mixes and have become semi-famous in my little area. The colorant I use is liquid concrete dye. The hard part is keeping the mixes consistent.
Glad to have you on the forum,someone is always asking questions about plaster.
Luck, Jameswhat the heck was I thinking?
My understanding is that if you want a true plaster job with drywall as a base you must use the green board because the plaster is so wet. That makes the job considerably more expensive and requires the use of 8 foot sheets. I assume then that if I want to use white board then I am limited to the hot muds. I realize that these are not as hard or as durable as true plaster but assuming some stupid kid does not play basketball in the room, they should hold up reasonably well. Are there colorants that will work with the hot mud? Do you have some brand names that I could investigate? Another posting here mentioned that the walls should be waxed, I suppose for a sheen. But wouldn't that prevent the coating over of the walls with paint or wallpaper later. Color trends and tastes change and the walls will need to be covered with something.
Wax cancould interfere with future finishes. Some of the new acrylic waxes are fine, the others need to be removed before anything else will stick to the wall. It's not a difficult job, just time consuming. At the price of these finishes, they are generally not changed out that often, and usually are used in conjection with a "theme" like the "olde world" look. Obviously they have their drawbacks, but nothing else looks like them either. Often times what you see in banks and the like that look like marble is acually plaster and not marble at all. Not something you change out a lot! haha
I'm not familar with any colorants for hot muds. I suppose any would do. I know a lot of plasterers that don't use the blue board. Not something I'd try, but there are some who will just put a bonder on the drywall and go for it.
Don
Es:
I've had this colored plaster finish in mind for a while now and have recently recieved a brochure from USG describing their Dorcorative Interior Finish System.
Call them at 800 874-4968 and ask for product information brochures P759 & P761
C.
What USG offers is Diamond that is colored. You need to color it yourself. When seeing this on large jobs it's not unusual to see beau coup 55 gallon drums filled with water that has been colored. Best way to get consistent color. It's a good plaster, but very different then what is being discussed here. Bear in mind, this is a conventional plaster. Timing is very important and you need experience to pull it off safely.
Don
Edited 12/6/2002 12:15:16 PM ET by Don C.
Called Fresco, it is the painting of wet lime plaster with dry pigments mixed with water. The pigments dry and set along with the plaster and the color becomes permanent. An ancient technique, DaVinci was famous for his rendering as well as Michelangelo, The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is a fresco. I once worked with an older fellow from Bosnia who had been trained to repair the walls of churches. He explained the process was extremely complex. Even a slight difference in the plaster mix would change the color completely. He had studied for years under a Master before he was allowed his first attempt. The man had an incredible ability to mix color. I remember an old green kitchen we added several cabinets to. We went to the paint store to find a similar color to match the new cabinets to the old. He asked the Manager if he could mix his own paint. After the job was done you could not tell where the old cabinets ended and the new started. He had not taken a sample to the paint store.
Try Plaster of Paris mixed with lime, you can adjust the set time from 1hr to 15sec and it will give you a pure white canvas to play with instead of the shades of gray in mud.
Gordsco
Gordsco,
This isn't fresco, and you're right that fresco is tricky work. Fresco is the painting on wet plaster. You can only plaster enough at a time to match what you can paint. There are many different types of fresco also. Mike did a Buon-Fresco in the chapel. These plasters here are tinted before going on the wall and the entire wall is done at once. There is also a large percentage of marble dust in these plaster which allows for some intensive polishing, and then the walls are still waxed ususally. Fresco's do not use calcium carbonate from marble.
It's funny, but the Italians have about as many names for plasters as the Eskimo's have for snow. There's a long, long history to this stuff. Stucco is plain old plaster in Italian. Here it's a portland cement mix.
Don
I thought plastering en' fresco was a naturist version of plastering ;-)
I've got a contractor I used that goes by the name Dick's Plastering. He never left anything but a smooth surface. Pretty talented guy. I wonder how he does ceilings?
Booch,
There's no question that smooth plaster is the most difficult finish to achieve. The floated finishes are much easier. At 47 I've had two hip replacements so ceilings done conventionally are out of my line of work now. Pretty much the reason I do strictly the decorative stuff now also. Heres a pic of a ceiling I did with mud in a Victorian cottage style.
Don
Awesome!
I would have guessed metal except no seams are visible. Do you use forms for the rosettes? Not that I'd ever go there.
Booch,
No forms, it's all hand work. I wrote this job up for walls and ceilings mag. if you'd like a link to how it was done?
Don
Save the effort, the work is beautiful but I'd never get near that. It is beautiful, but would never hold on a ceiling in my house. Too many kids thumping around. Remember I had plastering done 3 times? Well two were remodeling projects where doorways and bulkheads disappeared with the bayonette saw. The third trip was due to kids getting a rebound off of the kingsize bed and sticking the landing over my living room ceiling.
If it isn't nailed down or plastic it doesn't survive for long in my house.
This cold weather must be a treat for your bionic hips. I had a femur break with a plate and for almost 10 years I could tell the barometric changes.
That ceiling is incredible. I would like the link just to see how its done although I would never attempt anything close to it. Maybe I can learn something that will help me in the future.
Eschew,
Here's the link. If you have any questions feel free to ask. Depite it's appearance, this is an easy tecnique to pull off. Like I said, this isn't plaster, it's just mud.
Ooops, forgot the link:
http://www.wconline.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/coverstory/BNPCoverStoryItem/0,3296,81255,00.html
Don
Edited 12/5/2002 11:17:35 AM ET by Don C.
Don,
Wow! Very nice. Good article also but too short. How about writing one for FHB. Where can I buy the book and video. Hint , hint.
We use to tint our second coat of mud when finishing to make sure everything was hit. Made for some nice effects. Learned not to use yellow cuz it looked like baby poop on the walls.
KK
KK,
Colored mud from manufacturers has had an on and off again history for the reason you mentioned. Lot of guysgals do it themselves like you did. It can help keep track of where you're at on a job.
Hey, you don't need a book or video. Follow the article, and practice on the garage walls. Next weekend try it in a bedroom or bath. By that time you'll be saying, "Geeesh, ain't nothing to this!"
Don
Don, the ceiling is incredible. When you were talking about Venetian plaster in that dining room, were you talking about the modern day Venetian plaster, e.g. Stuccoantiquo? How would the finish stand up in a powder room? I am worrying about the wall behind the pedestal sink. Any idea what to use to seal the finish so it doesn't get stain marks from the water? Thanks.
Tom
Tom,
Your question really opens up a can of worms when it comes to these plasters. This particular plaster, Adicolor's Stucco Antico, is a synthtic and I would not use it in a bathroom that has a shower or tub unless I was guarenteed that the room would not be used until the job was done. So yes, it is a modern version of venetian plaster. There are wax's and impregnatorssealers that can be used over it which allow it to be used in bathrooms. The benefit of this particular plaster is that it is easy to learn and very user friendly. There are some lime venetian plasters available that can be used on exteriors so baths would be no problem at all. But then again, there are some lime plasters that still need to be sealed, interior or exterior. Needless to say, there are a lot issues involved that are plaster specific so there is no direct answer to your question. I know that doesn't help much, so if you can be more specific with a plan, I'm more then happy to share what I can.
Don
Yes, Adicolor's Stucco Antico, that's what I meant. If I use it in a powder room, what kind of wax/sealer would you recommend in order to prevent water marks and at the same time preserve the look of the unsealed finish, or can it be done?
Tom
Tom,
That would really depend on what type of finish you were after. If you highly burnish the plaster because that's the look you want, and then put on a flat acrylic wax, you're going to be dissapointed. And then again, the color of the plaster, and what you use to color it can have an impact.
I have yet to see any wax or sealer that doesn't effect the plaster some, and at best it usually darkens the finish slightly. Others though can have a drastic effect. It really depends on the plaster and the finish you're after. If you want the matte old world finish, Watco's satin floor wax does a good job. As a floor wax it's tough stuff also. Again, there are also plasters available that don't need to be sealed or protected.
Have you used any of the decorative plasters? Might give me a starting place on what you're going for. Unfortunately these plasters are not like going to a paint store with a fan deck and picking out what you want. That's just the starting place. Some of the plasters are high in translucent qualities, so the primer used to prep the wall can effect the outcome. The same is true for primers and paint though and paint is fairly opaque. No hard and fast rules here. Alot comes down to experience and practice but the learning curve does not have to be overwhelming at all. BTW, I have a lot friends who are manufacturers and importers but I don't represent anyone nor do I owe anyone in the business. My suggestions are based on experience and not because of some other benefit to me.
Don
Edited 12/6/2002 2:10:57 AM ET by Don C.
Don,
The only experience I have with decorative plasters is limited to Adicolor's Stucco Antico, I don't think I have enough talent to tackle any of the old world plaster techniques, I am willing to learn though. What I am after is the three coat Stucco Antico with a highly burnished final coat which has patches of different reflective areas. What I worry about is with the wax/sealer, the finish may become more uniform in reflecting light which would then take away the unsealed look. I am going to make up some boards and see the combination of technique/material. It is so true that the primer has quite an effect on the finish even when the finish is opaque such as paint. That's the reason why the Old Masters always use a white primer and start from there.
Tom
Tom,
I understand your concern, but for the most part, what is under the wax is what is going to come through. I quick quide just to see how that is, take a flat and gloss paint and lay them down on anything. When dry, wax both. You will see what effect the wax has, but you will also get an idea of how the flat is flat and the gloss is gloss. A good comparison would also be a car that is sun faded from lack of a protective wax on the finish. If you wax it without rubbing it out first, the car is not going to shine waxed or not.
Don
Don,
For practising, I am going to rub out my car first. I second the idea of a FHB article. Care to post some more photos of your work?
Tom
KK,
If you don't mind, I will email you about this.
Tom,
I'm getting ready to go to LA to work this week. Much of what I have I won'tcan't post as a courtesy to the customers. I'm sure there is still alot I can dig out and post when I return.
Don
Wow! Verrry Impressive! I've seen alot of plasterers create or repair cornice and smooth coat walls, but I've never seen ceiling detail like that in anything but metal.
Also: Thank you for your clarification of fresco
Gordsco
Thank you for the kind words. Really, that particular technique anyone can do.
Fresco's are interesting. Unlike paintings, The paint is absorbed into the plaster as it dries, so it basically becomes a 3D painting. All other paintings and the paint sits on top of the surface. It's this quality that separates your friend from a traditonal restorationist. Fresco repair is a small field of people very revered in the artsy community for very unique talents in both art and plaster.
Don
Don, You clearly are a wealth of knowledge on this subject. I wouldn't even know what kind of store or which manufacturers make these kinds of products. Please write and article for FHB and include a list of web sites and manufacturers of plasters, colorants, coatings, etc. What about matte polyurethane as a sealant? Or Shellac? I am not a professional and would never even think about working on someone else's house unless it was someone close to me that agreed to do it right with no shortcuts and did not have a wife to complain every day about how slowly it was going. (I don't know anyone like that.) I realize that you only get good at this kind of work with experience but I like to know what is possible. This is truly fine home building.
Eschew,
This writing something for FHB has come up a couple of times. How does one go about it? I'm not familar with the policies or politics of Taunton.
Don
Don,
Call 800-283-7252 ext409
Fax 203-426-3434
E-mail [email protected]
Looking forward to the article.
KK
Don,
Can't pass up the opportunity to say how beautiful your work is.
I've been meaning to try some colored plaster here when I redo some of the rooms (it's time again) and you've just provided the inspiration. I''ll be checking that article link soon.
Thanks much for posting those pics and all the info.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Goldhiller,
Thanks you for the kind words. There are some very difficult plastering methods, processes and techniques, but what is here is not one of those. A little patience and a few hours of practice and you'll be doing this in no time.
Don
I have used regular drywall mud with a little bit of artist's acrylic pigment stirred in (but not totally mixed). Our family room is done this way, with a little yellow ochre and burnt sienna in the mix. We then used faux glaze to seal the walls and give them a little shine. Looks pretty nice if I do say so myself.
Good choice on the artists acrylics. You can do a lot with them, and they have great color. When not totally mixed in you can get spots of straight color which can hilight a finish. Great color combo you choose also. Golden's arcylics are a bit expensive, but they work great for this.
Don