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I was just wondering who this book was written for? Why is such a book of any value to a tradesmen? Everything I learned was taught on the job by carpenters that had learned from carpenters that didnt use a book to learn construction! In my opinion a book like this is used most probably by the weenies in college trying to become construction managers. Have you ever gone out to a subdivision and dealt with one of these idiots that has never swung a framing hammer, that has never roofed a house, that has never poured a foundation, etc….? What a joke! What is our trade coming to when these kids out of college are building homes as superintendants and have never done the job? Take the books away from them and make them learn the good old fashioned way! I would love some input as to what others are seeing in the field. Thanks
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Replies
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Gee Whiz Dan, you're not one of those guys who never swung a hammer too? Are you? I understand Mr. Smith's (boy that sounds ficticious) point. I too have worked on job sites where the supervisors were clearly only experienced in the text knowledge of building a home. They may have even taken a few business management courses but all in all, they didn't really know shit about physically building a home. They just liked to be smart-ass pricks.
And another thing....calling jehova witnesses "bastards" is not all too nice a thing now, is it? A guy made a few non-insulting comments on the amish and got a new hole ripped in his rear-end. They are rather annoying though.
I do agree that there may be issues of new technology in products and practice to be gained form books but honestly I have found many construction books to be reprints of age old info. I think periodicals such as FHB do more for exposing such new technologies than most other publications. That's why I subscribe...cuz I'm a cutting edge kinda guy.
Pete Draganic
*Mr Smith,I am one of those "college idiots" with a twist. I grew up working with my hands, building buildings, roofing, putting engines in previously non-powered things, etc. In my career I wish I had workers that could quote most of that book. Some of these guys don't even know waht "R-value" means, if you strat trying to explain "air barrier" to these people their eyes roll and drool starts coming out. They don't see how framing has anything to do with thermal performance because that's the insulators job.It seems to me that any book that can condense a career's worth of data into one handy REFERNCE BOOK is worth keeping around to quell alot of the handed down and degenerated information prevalent in apprenticeship trades. Example - in my day job I work in a union plant. Our plumbers make worse sweat joints than even the poorest do-it-yourself book depicts. When you try to explain why you don't do it that way they always counter with "That's the way I learned from (insert name here) who did this in this plant for 35 years. Does your degree give you more knowledge than he had!!??" No - it didn't, but Popular Mechanics (or FHB)can.-Rob
*Dear Mr. Smith,I'm a college-educated person who left my white-collar field by choice and picked up a hammer about 9 years ago, but that doesn't mean I put down the books. I'm not a supervisor or a construction manager, I'm a jack-of-all-trades one-person company. I don't think I could have gotten up to speed an all phases of construction work as quickly as I did without books like "Complete Building Construction." Also, I'll bet the vocational schools find them quite useful. Some carpenters do actually learn from books.What I have learned from other carpenters and construction workers usually amounts to ways to cut corners or do things badly. I'm glad the books are there to provide a baseline standard. If all I knew was what others told me on jobsites, I would be in big trouble. Steve
*hmmm, yeah, well, um, cgk, ok, I'm Sorry Mr Smith.I was having a bad day.I hadn't pooped in a week and it was starting to bother me...I'm ok now.Pete-- 32oz Vaughn
*Dan,LOL. I suppose that technically you were full of shit when you wrote that.Pete
*Mr. Smith,
Joseph FuscoView Image
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Mr. Smith:
Your words and attitude personifies the type-cast that gives people who work with their hands a bad rap. Just because you build doesn't mean you can't perfect your craft with some additional information. Sure, on the job training is the most valuable way to learn, but to put yourself ahead of the crowd, to be other than average, you need to provide yourself with the edge of knowledge.
Let me share with you a few of the things that I recently learned on the job site (TIC):
1) Adding additional water to concrete to produce a slump of 7" or 8" does not weaken concrete - "me and my daddy proved it to that engineer".
2) Providing a capillary break between masonry and "white wood" is unnecessary. "Been framing for 25 years and never heard of such a thing". This one is covered in the "weenie book".
3) Anchor bolts placed in the foundation so as to land roughly in the middle of the mud sill. "I've been laying brick since before you were born, and that's not the way I build 'em. Anchor bolts are nothing but a bunch of trouble".
4) "A few hard rains will compact that fill enough to provide a stable base for the concrete." - from a builder buddy who I otherwise respect and who is quite quality minded.
Not that everything in print has merit - but when you read the same thing in 3 or 4 places you start to think that it might be true - that adding excessive water to concrete may actually weaken it, for example.
Oh yea - I learned a bunch of good stuff on site too…
As far as "these idiots that has never swung a framing hammer", in order to be truly successful in most professions, you need to hone your people skills to effectively manage the "weenies."
*
I've been at this trade for ywenty years [no college unfortunatly ] and I learn somthing nearly every day alot of it from books . I've been lucky to have worked with quite a few different guys ,most of which I considered good craftsmen but I've learned more from reading than anywhere else .When someone condenses several years of experience from several tradesmen into one easy to use scorce it seems foolish to me not to take advantage of it . I will say that I dont think any one without any construction experience can just read a book and go out and build a quality house but the guy who read and understood the book has it all over his peers who didnt. Just my thoughts Chuck
*Any avenue of learning is worth taking. Be it book learning or experience. Not everyone has the privlege of learning by example. I have no patience with someone who claims to "know it all". I also have no patience with anyone not willing to listen. Books are a great source of information. So is the school of hard knocks. However, neither by itself is a complete education. Anyone who stops learning had better get out of this business. You will never learn it all even if you live to be a hundred. Isn't that why we subscribe to FHB? To learn?
*Mr. Smith. Too many of us know the what of building but not the why.The 1977 Leger house--arguably the first double wall super insulated house in the USA--was the butt of criticism and "it won't fly"from the building, electrical and plumbing experts. Had they done a little book reading they might have thought otherwise. GeneL.
*
Gene, What is a 1977 Leger House? It sounds like an edsel! If you had been trained properly in the field maybe then you would know the why. All I am saying is that a weenie going to school should have to go out and learn on the job for a couple of years before they are turned loose to cause havoc in my trade. You sound a little full of yourself when you refer to homes that you built as "Leger House" this or that. Frank Loyd Wright was very full of himself and even he didn't have the audacity to call his creations "Wright house Arizona" or "Wright house Oak Park". You sir are not a Frank Loyd Wright! Come down off your high horse and start living with the rest of us!
Respectfully, Mr. Smith
*Mr. Smith. If you were a regular on this site you would know that I did not decide to call the 1977 Leger House, the Leger House. This is the name given to it by Dr. Gautam Dutt then of Princeton University's Environmental Science and Engineering Division.All the many many houses that followed were named after the owners.My term for these houses was and is MESH houses: Micro Energy System Houses.The 1977 Leger House, which I designed and built, was arguably the first double wall super insulated house in the USA and one of the first in the world.Bentley patented and built probably the first super insulated house in the early 1970s, but did not use a double wall. He also is probably the first to use an air-to-air-heat exchanger(AAHE) in a residence. The Leger House's annual heating bill was $38.50. Its "heating system" was a 46K Btu--the ssmallest we could find-- instantaneous Japanese natural gas hot water heater. You may read about it in my paper "Än Affordable Solar House" published in the 1979 Proceedings of the 4th National Passive Solar Conference, and in too may other publications to list here.It is neither a passive nor an active solar house. The title of our paper was not ours. It was forced on us by the American Section of the International Solar Energy Society(ASISES). Search the BT archieves for details of the ioinnovative framing and wiring techniques in the Leger House. Oh yes, another "Edsel"of mine is the Fredette House in Burlington, Massachusetts, whose annual heating bill for electric heating is $30.00.By the bye.Mrs. Fredette, now deceased, provided the information on her annual electrric heating bill.GeneL.
*
Dear Mr. Smith and Genne
Stop it both of you, I'm splitting my sides here. Mr. Smith, you've got Gene so mad he's mispelling his own name and bringing back the dead to prove a point.
Out of the line of fire,
Gabe
*
I've been a book-fed, hammerless Construction Managing weenie for about thirty years and I know my strengths and weaknesses.
I find that I can design and co-ordinate quite well though; so as long as I have respect for them that's been frame-hammering, pipe-strangling or muck-pouring and have developed all the other site skills for thirty years, and we all work together we generally produce a fine building.
Never had one named after me though! Ah well - back to the drawing board.
*
Gabe,
Joseph Fusco
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*Hi Joe,It's not an accomplishment, it's a miracle, praise the Lord. Inuits have been building igloos for centuries and have been heating them for less than $30.00 and not one honorable mention in The Complete Building Construction. Where's the justice?Two things really amaze me Joe, the first is the number of people who have tried to take credit for inventing the wheel. The second is why is it that all the people who claim to be reincarnated were famous people in their other lives. Can't tell you the number of people that claim to have been Napoleon."I think I was a sewer worker in my other life" probably wouldn't get you to first base on a date.Oh wellGabe
*Gabe,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Good evening Joe,2 plus 2 doesn't add up to 22.Openning the door to bring in the groceries in minus 30 weather would blow the $38.00 budget to hell and back in any home, "Leger" home included. When's the last time somebody hired you to build them a custom home that you could heat for $38.00 bucks? Custom and economy don't belong on the same house plans. Build an ugly house without windows and add a double entry system with an air lock and heating would be cheap. But the big question is "who would want it".We live in a wasteful society and we have some of the most beautiful homes in the world.Both of us would stave to death if this wasn't a fact.GabeBy the way, how's the building action in the big city. I'm looking at some artic projects right now, just in time for the black fly season.Catch you laterGene has a lot of knowledge, but most of it is in marketing, not construction.
*Well, that's well said. It all comes down to the individuals, right? generalisations are generally worthless.
*Dear Mr Smith. I find it hard to believe that you think people that read and learn from books are weeenies.I attended a formal carpenter apprentice program, one that included reading books. One of the most striking memories of my classmates was that they too had attitudes like yours. They continually asked "why do we need to know this? Blah, blah, blah.?"Well, I got sick and tired of sitting through a re-explanation of the Pythagorean theory, as we learned to figure basic math, stair geometry, roof geometry, etc. These young men thought they knew it all, because they were swinging hammers.Swinging hammers is learned in five seconds, somtimes quicker. After that, some professionals decide to learn a little more about their craft, their trade. The wise ones read books, magazines, newspapers, cereal boxes, and anything else that will give them a clue about how to gain an edge in the field.I don't mind people like you who refuse to learn from books. That's because you are the competition. And I like whupping the competition's butt's. I do it with experience, and technical knowledge. I am totally comfortable, when I am politely conversing with the "weenie" type superintendents that you despise, because I can relate to them on their level, having read the same books that they did. Guess who has the inside track when it gets down to the last house? And guess who gets paid more?Oh yeah, I can also relate to the rough and tumble cowboy type that you prefer, but I am not about to call either a weenie, simply because he took his life's work seriously enough to read!I am going to suggest that you thoroughly read a couple of construction books. You will be surprised to find out that you don't know it all. Most people don't know, what they don't know, and the only way to learn more is to expand your knowledge base. Lerning it all from your Uncle Henry, might not be enough. It is just one piece of the puzzle.Try it, you might be pleasantly surprised!well read, especially early in my career,Blue
* Hi Gabe,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*
The weenies that I refer to are the ones that come out of school reading a book like Genes and think they know it all. They dont know it all, all they know is what they read. I have read books on diferent construction topics and have learned, but until i took the knowledge out into the field and applied it did I really learn. There is a big difference between reading about it and doing it! I have read books about climbing Mt. Everest, that doesnt mean i could go out tommorow and climb it, I would end up dead in two days! Just because you read a book about construction doesnt mean you can do that either. You have to go out and put your time in the field and sweat! I to have built energy efficient homes and have been on the leading edge of home construction, I read the books on how to put a structural insulated panel(sip's)home together, but until i got out there and actually laid my hands on them and started to put one together did i realize that the pamphlets were full of sh*t! I read in the info sent from the manufacturer about how easy they were to get together and how easy it is to use the electrical chases, etc... they werent easy, and i know that because i built with them. I know how to put a sip home together properly and time efficiently because I have worked with them and not just read a book about them! Contd.....
*I know about air to air heat exchangers, because i ahve read about them and installed them! I have been using a vapor barrier out of sweden for about 10 years. I read about the stuff in FHB, looked pretty neat and easy to use, not until i applied it to the bottom of my raiesd heel trusses did i really learn about what a pain in the neck the stuff was, it comes with its own adhesive that smells and sticks like wrigleys, after doing it a couple of times i learned better ways of getting it up there on those trusses! No weenie reading a book is ever going to have the knowledge that I have! Or at least not unil he gets off his weenie ass and does the work and really learns! Thats all i am saying. MR.Smith
*And another thing, I am sure Mr. Leger is a knowledgable man. And it does seem as though he has an answer to everything, I guess if i had a book to sell I would refer everyone that had a question about construction to read it! They might get some technical knowledge and I would certainly get mo money in my pocket. Not a bad deal!Hey Gene could you give me your publishers name? Mr. Smith
*
Good Morning Joe,
The project manager part of me has to deal with subs on multi million dollar projects. In that role,I often get tired of having to re-educate trades men to innovation.
One of the most successful developers, is a Montreal based company. He build's office structures and leases them out, which means he builds them to own and maintain himself.
The success of this company is based on simplicity in the structural design and asthetics added to the outside. The rationale is by building the main structure in the standard format, the emphasis is on quality. The cost savings realized over the years by not having roof failures etc. is tremendous.
They still put together some of the most attractive buildings in the world. They just last longer.
The average government owned building is another matter. The architects that design them what to either make a statement or leave a monument as a legacy. This ego in the industry is why their buildings are now classified sick. This complication of designs is why maintaining these buildings is so expensive.
With house building, (I'm generalizing here, Joe) we have been unable to ensure a level of quality in construction in North America that is equal to the consumers expectations.
I have nothing against marketing persay, but you have to agree in as much as we both have to read a lot, there is absolutely nothing new in Gene's book that can't be found in most construction texbooks.
I have one by William R. G. Sutton that is easier for the average beginner to read and comprehend than Gene's. What is does is explain basic residential construction.
Gene's book is not a "How to Book", it's a "Me Book".
There's a lot of facts in his book but they are not new to us in the industry. They can be found in libraries all over the country.
I'll give him good marks for gathering and compiling, but will fail him for trying to take credit for inventing the wheel.
The second house I ever built, 34 years ago, was a double wall, 2x4 stud construction with a 1 inch air space because I had read about one in Northern Quebec.
The more experience you have is that you learn that experience is knowing that you have seen it before.
Gabe
*Hello Gabe,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Good Evening JoeYa enough said on this subject. It's good to disagree on something once in a while. I'd be scared if everyone agreed all the time about everything, not to mention boring.Looks like we are going to have an excellent year out here and wishing the same to you.Gabe
*Gabe,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*or you could say,"2 + 2 is 11 if your base is 3."
*Mr. Smith, et al. The publisher is Macmillan Publishing Company. The book is called mine because my name only appears. The book is part of the many volumes in the Audel Library. If you were regulars on this page you would know that I posted on this site a complete breakdown of what I did to the book. When I was given the book to evaluate I was told that it needed a 20% revision.After reading some 700 page I said it needs a complete revision. Because of a disagreement between the publisher and his agent I was not allowed to do a complete revision. I wrote chapters 1,2,3,8,9,10,11,17,23,24. All the remaining chapters are original except for the changes, deletions, or additions I added.Had I been given a free hand the book would have exceeded 1000 pages, and contained lots of the material being discusses here.As it was I had to delete much material and many illustrations. When I suggest that a poster consult Complete Building Construction (CBC)it's not because I think my book is the best and nothing can be learned from books by Koel, Muller, Reed,Wagner, Lee, and too many others to list here.If you want to learn about 11th commandment framing, I'm not being pejorative,read these books.I've often recommended Joe Lstiburek's books as well as ASHRAE and other publications. But if you want an in-depth explanation of attic ventilation you'll not find it in Koel, et al., or even in Lstiburek's books.Thus it makes more sense to recommend CBC for in-depth information on attic ventilation(with illuistrations) as well as other areas,than to attempt posting 19 pages of explanation. For example the revised chapter on attic ventilation is some now exceeds 50 pages and may end up 75 pages long.How long a response would you tolerate or Sean permit?Yes, much of what is in CBC is not new, and is also found in other publications.But some of the information is not to be found in many other publications.Indeed, it is almost impossible to find information on the Arkansas House.The information on the reduction of FG's R-value--in attics-as temperatures drop is usually found only in $300.00 per year news letters.I hope this helps to clarify things a bit. GeneL.
*
You have to be one of those people who can read and learn to be better at what you do.I actually started in the trades and went back to school to get my construction management degree. Iagree that you have to learn on the job, but to think you couldnt pick up new info and put it to work is lame. Try some of the FH how to books and you may be suprised.
*
Gabe. You wrote, " Openning the door to bring in the groceries in minus 30 weather would blow the $38.00 budget to hell and back in any home, "Leger" home included."
Because we did not have an AAHE in the 1977 Leger house--we added one just before we sold the house--we made a number of important discoveries.We discovered for example, that air locks and vestibules do not wotrk on tight houses.How did we find this out? We were running very high humidity(unintentional) 80-90%. We tried a dehumidifier but the free heat was too expensive. One bright sunny February morning--20 below out--I told my wife to open the windows on the south side. I left for work and returned about 1700 hours. The hygrometer showed 40% RH. and the interior temperature 68 degrees F. The south windows were opened for 6 to 8 hours. The house did not cool off and even if it had we would not have noticed. Why? Because of no drafts, high humidity, and the mean rasdiant temperature (MRT) of the walls was the same as ambient temperature.
Independent confirmation of this unbelievable fact was furnished in David Robinson's(of Robinson Rules fame) Ivanhoe House, by the Lawrence Berkely Laboratory (LBL). LBL monitored just about every thing going on in the Ivanhoe house. No matter how many times the front door was opened or left opened, neither the occupants nor the instruments showed anything happening.I won't mention the Ivanhoe House heating costs because you would claim it fraudulent. Would you like to hear about another occupied house in the snow belt that had no heating bill. I was a consultant on this one. GeneL.
*I would like to hear about it. But I know if Gabe jabs you you'll come with lots of facts, so wait for the jabs.-Rob
*You won't have to wait long Rob.Dearest GeneYou must think that the entire construction industry would falter and die if you weren't there to save it.I know you don't actually believe your wild claims and only the experience challenged would fall for them as well.It's unfortunate that we never crossed paths when you were a building inspector, I would have given you cause to find another calling.I think you wife lied to you and only openned the windows when you were leaving and again when you were coming back.Gene, put your book down and join the real world. The worst part about writting or editing a book is actually believing, what you have written, is fact, because after all, there it is in black and white.You live in a strange world where you need to know people who need to know people.The energy cost of a house for any given year in most parts of the world is more than $38.00 IF a reasonable level of comfort is expected.You can quote Ludwik Van Duck for all I care, but you can't make it rain and I won't let you take credit for it.Gabe
*Steve, I am much like you. BA in accounting and an executive Masters in Real Estate development yet I do my own projects and want most of all "carpenter, extraordinary" to be listed on my gravesite. I believe a man is oftentimes measured by the size of his library. I have seen many carpenters espose have ass tricks in remodeling and building it is not funny. the solution to the probem is book knowledge and practical expereince.
*
Just to add my .02 cents worth... to this heated topic....
As a new home owner (and college weenie) of a 1910 house I ordered the book in discussion last week.
I had to because I don't have enough money to hire trained/skilled tradesmen to fix my: Foundation, rotted sill plate, etc....
And even if I could afford the craftsmen/tradesmen, I need to know enough about the subject to make an intelligent selection of which tradesmen to go with (i.e. is this guy full of crap and is going to screw up my house and take my money).
So, I sit down, read the book and see if I can do it myself, or try and find someone who will do it the "right way".
Heck... I posted a question on whether or not to vent/insulate my basement cripple walls and got NO responses here. So where am I suppose to turn? What I have learned is that building solutions often depend on the region and bulletin board such as these are only slightly helpful.
*
Rob, et al. Let me tell you about another of my phantasies: The Magar House. I met John Magar, an experienced builder, at a super insulation workshop I was in in Chicogo in April 1982.If memory serves Harold Orr-of Saskatchewan Conservation House fame-and I were the presenters.After two days of presentations, Magar approached me and said he would like to pick my brains for which he would gladly pay me. I don't recall how many hourse we spent togehter.A short time later he left for his home in Livonia--near Rochester, New York, to design and build what he called the "Zero Hesat Concept"house.
The Magar house is a 1276 square foot house with double 2x4 stud walls containing 14-inches of cellulose insulation--R-50. The ceiling is insulated with 16 or more inches of cellulose for an R-60.The floor over the preserved wood foundation (PWF)is insulated with R-19 fiberglass batts.The exterior of the PWF has 1-inch of Extruded XPS insulation. The house is equipped with an AAHE that supplies a continuous 0.5 ACH
Oh yes, the house neither needs nor has a heating system. The house was designed to be totally heated by waste heat from lights, appliances, people and incidental solar hear.
This will make absoluterly no difference to Gabe, but the performance of the house was analyzed by John DeFrees, a staff engineer st the Rochester Institute of Technology. According to DeFrees's report the house's total heat load was 3429 Btu/hr at an average winter temperature of 35.4 degrees F. Internal heat gain from appliances, lights, people was 4212 Btu/hr. Ergo, the house's heat load under average conditions is Zilch, NIL. NADA. Interestingly enough the house has almost no solar gain due to shading and improper citing The measured air leakage at 50 pascals was 0.43 air changes per hour.
When John sold this house to Helen Chichester, who occupies the house with her husband and two children, he showed them a section of electric baseboard that can only be plugged into special separately wired and metered outlets.He told them it was for emergencies in case something goes wrong.
During the night of December 26, 1983 the outside temperature dropped to 8 degrees F, and the Chichesters turned on the baseboard heater.The total measured annual electric consumption during the 1982-1983 winter was 9kWh costing $.64.
Magar is no longer in the building business, but the Chichesters still occupy the Zero Heat Concept house. If any of you want more information let me know. Now on to the Saunders houses. GeneL..
*Greg (new homeowner). Don't give up so easily. I can only speculate why your post remains unanswered. Notwithstanding the often nonsense found here, there is much gold to be had.GeneL
*With all due respect Gabe, the results were measured by a lab. I believe them. You can't blow smoke into a bottle. Not to imply that you smoke...Dan
*
Sorry Joe, but it would still be 2 + 2 = 4 in base 11 number system.
2 + 2 could = 11 in base 3 tho.
*Sounds lIke sour grapes To me.Go And write your own Book.EverYOne , even yoU, is entitled to An opinion; youRS just sEems to alWays be negatIe. Perhaps thErapy would help you?
*
Good afternoon Dan,
One of the most common statements that I share with all my adult ed. students is "question everything you read and half of what you see."
We have for hire labs here and I don't think it's any different where you are, that will report on any part of the story and leave out the part that they weren't paid to report on.
I'm not saying that anything is bogus with the lab reports that Gene quote's constantly, what I am saying is that sometimes you have to put aside that trust in the written word and go with your instincts.
I want you to think for a moment, "If you had not heard of Gene Leger or the famous Leger House studies and I was to approach you and say that my heating bill for my house was $38.00 per year and I lived in a cold climate region" would you believe me and why not.
Gabe
*
I think Mr. Smith sounds pompous. I will admit that a majority of carpentry is learned on the job BUT it does not hurt to read and try to improve yourself. As for college kids wanting to be super's tell me one kid that wants or is willing to start at the bottom and work their way up. I think D-I-Y books have to be taken in context and not be thought of as a cure all. Whether its the trades or profession, experience is still the best policy.
*would you believe me and why notYou assume that no one would believe you. Why is that?Many non-confrontational, normal people would ask HOW that is accomplished. We'd want to hear (or see) the details of the construction.If you stated that you had a perpetual-motion heat engine, then I would not believe you.Why is it, Gabe, that you've taken it upon yourself to criticize Gene and his book? How is it that you are the self-appointed energy-construction police? You've got some definite personal "issues"; GET HELP.Benny
*
Phil,
Joseph Fusco
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*Hi Rick S.That's the basic difference between us Rick.You beat around the bush and try to be clever with your wit. I'm only direct and you're nuts. Gabe
*
It is those kids that I refer to as weenies. How can you come into the this field with nothing but booksmarts? Those kids are going to have to start at the bottom and work there way up like the rest of us! That is really all I am saying. Not trying to be pompous, just want to try and save the profession I love.
*
Benny,
Obviously, you're an expert in psychiatry and you're able to diagnose on the internet and determine who is normal and who needs help. Why waste your time on this post, when you're needed in government.
The difference between us is that I never attended sheep 101. I always learned to think for myself.
In one breath you say, "If you stated that you had a perpetual-motion heat engine, then I would not believe you."
I NEVER DID.
GENE HAS CLAIMED THIS AND YOU DO BELIEVE HIM.
GET A LIFE, ONE OF YOUR OWN.
You remind me of those chumps that send $20.00 dollars to an ad in Popular Mechanics for an attachment for your gas line that will give you 150 miles to the gallon. After all, if it wasn't true, Popular Mechanics wouldn't print the ad, right?
I don't have to prove anything. There are 100 million homes in this hemisphere that were built by competent builders who never heard of Gene Leger and the Leger House and they'er still doing fine.
All the national building science programs support the traditional concept of building, insulation, ventilation, heating and cooling.
So you, my learned friend, spend your money, buy Gene's book, (make him happy) build your new 1,500 sq. ft. home with his advice and then next year, let me know about your $38.00 heating bill and don't forget to mention how much capital expenditures it required.
Gabe
*This may be alittle off topic from the original post but....I gotta tell you folks-I'm with Gabe on this. Gabe's skepticism as to these claims of zero or practically zero energy costs is, in my opinion, right on. There has to be more to these stories than is being mentioned.(By the way-studies by someone with a PhD after their name are no guaranty of accuracy. Even PhDs can have hidden agendas-remember cold fusion?) I have a few questions for Gene: Do you live in a home that can be heated for $38.00 a year?(Maybe you live in a warm climate) If not why not? Why haven't we seen a revolution in home construction using these techniques? Are these homes practical and marketable? As an analogy I would point out that there are automobiles that have zero fuel expences. They even race them-solar powered cars. But they are not practical or marketable. I have to believe that for some reason not mentioned, these homes are either not practical or marketable. Otherwise, after all these years we would have seen thousands of these homes everywhere. As to the original topic, I love books. They are an invaluable source of information, entertainment and pleasure to me. But I do try to maintain a healthy skepticism (not cynisism) about what I read. John
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This is so kewl! I just push a button, and Gabe starts dancin' and spewin' trash.
Hmmm...what's this button do?
I don't have to prove anything. Neither does Gene!
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JRS.Don't confuse Gabe's cynicism(what he calls common sense and instinct) with skepticism. Focus your skepticism: calling for evidence to prove or disprove,on the Magar House.The Magar house's $0.64 annual heating bill makes the first Leger House $38.50 annual heating bill look expensive.
While you're at it consider the Saunders houses. They too has no heating system: no boilers, furnaces, hot water heaters as a source of heat,.No they are not located in the south, but in the snow-belt.
And what about the Saskatchewan Conservation House with an HI of 0.22, in a 10,000 degree day year?
You ask, "Why haven't we seen a revolution in home construction using these techniques?" How can there be a revolution when 70% of bulders are still locked into 16-inch oc 11th commandment framing?: 3 and 4 stud exterior corners,nailers, backers, flats, tees, and stud pockets at the junction of interior/exterior walls, headers in non-load bearing walls, or,gable end walls, and so on.How can there be a revolution when builders indiscrimately make a wholesale changoever to 2x6 studs without considering the cost consequences, and in the mistaken belief that the R-19 2x6 stud wall is significantly better than the R-11 2x4 wall. Yes, I know, what common sense says.. This can't be.
You ask, "Are these homes practical and marketable?" Are you familiar with the Arkansas House? Probably not.Its designer was concerned not only with energy conservation, but with a house that cost less to build than its Federal Housing Administration(FHA)Minimum Property Standards (MPS) brother, one that cost less to operate and was thus affordable for a greater number of people. Using Value Engineering (VE)(what the NAHB calls Optimum Value Engineering (OVE))the designer, Frank Holtzclaw, eliminated everything that added cost, but did not contribute to the structural integrity, safety, comfort and energy performance of the structure.Even though the Arkansas house (AH) contains 41% less framing lumber in exterior walls than the same sized MPS house, it has a safety factor in excess of 2 to1. for load and racking.
The AH achievbes its cost effectiveness and energy efficiency without the use of complicated technology or unusual framing techniques.It is sophisticated because of the utter simplicity of the methods used.It is a lovely example of what is called Occam's Razor which in modern jargon is called KISS: keep it simple stupid.All energy efficient houses that use what is called Advanced Framing or Advanced Structural Techniques are based of the AK techniques where this framing originated. The two-stud corner of course dates back to 1832.
Decide then, for yourself if the AH and similar houses are practical. Thnere has never been any trouble marketing and selling AH houses.
The 1977 Leger house even with the double walll, increased insulation and foundation insulation cost no more to built that if it were the FHA MPS house of the same size.Because of the different framing techniques and rescheduling we use, the $500,00 to $1000,00 air sealing package was eliminated.Venting the natural gas instantaneous hot water heater directely through the foundation eliminated an expensive masonry chimney. Using 46 feet of baseboard eliminated hundreds of dollars in plunbing labor and materilas.The use of electrostrip surface mounted wiring(SMW)also eliminated hundreds of dollars of electrical labor and materials.
The first Leger House is 22 years old, still stnads, still performs beautifully, has no rot or moisture problems. the heating bill is now about $76.00 because the cost of natural gas has doubles.The totl cost of gas for 1980: gas heat, hot water, gas dryer, gas stove, was $222.00. the 1998 cost was $400.00. the $400.00 number was furnished byn the present owner of the house who has occupied it for 19 years.GeneL.
*The truth comes out slow with you Gene old buddy.ALL THOSE THINGS PRODUCE HEAT, GENE.So it wasn't $38.00 dollars after all. NOW you say it was $222.00 and the modern day cost is $400.00 per year.Now what was the yearly total electrical bill for the house Gene, and don't give it to me one lightbulb at a time?Exposing the truth,Gabe
*Gabe. There is a difference between a total gas bill and the gas consumed for heating. There is no inconsistency in my statements. The instantsaneous water heater was connected to a separate gas meter. The only bills I have are the gas bills. We never kept the electric bills.GeneL.
*Gene are you saying that a gas hot water tank and a gas stove don't give off any heat therefore do not contribute to the heating of the house?Was there a fireplace in this house by any chance?Gabe
*As someone who lives in a climate without the extremes you blokes are talking about, I find this an interesting subject.This question is asked from ignorance and not to antagonize.Doesn't the laws of Thermodynamics come into play in all this?If you leave windows open in a warm house, and it is colder outside, dosen't the laws of Thermodynamics say the heat will travel untill it's equall temperature.respectfullyMark
*Good evening Mark,When it's minus 38 degrees C outside and plus 22 inside, you open the windows and it averages out to minus 38.The only time we open the windows in the dead of winter, is to escape the house fire started by the burning bush commonly known as the Christmas tree.Unless of course you live in the 30 year old, world famous "Leger House" then you heat with a candle and ventilate with a fart. If you ever ventilate over the candle, you blow the house up.Gabe
*Good question Mark , I'm beginning to wonder if I even need a door on my refrigerator or oven . Chuck
*Gabe,Are we allowed to say "fart" on this show?A word on OVE.I've worked in N.Z. where they use similar systems to yourselves ( 2x4 studs).We have been using for years 2 stud corners. Our studs are 2x3 if not 1.5x3 at 450 centres ( 18") and yet our overall design has to withstand windspeeds ( cyclonic ) of up to 65metres per second.To top this off we have to warrant structurally for 6 years. There is no doubt in my mind that many buildings are overengineered, is that because our grandaddys built it that way?However back to the heating topic.Please clarify a " degree day"
*Hi Mark,Ya, fart is okay.Is there a site you can recommend for me to check out the wall assembly in NZ.Check out our cmhc site for our construction.Gabe
*FreddyL,I see you had to come to the aid of your buddy again with more camoflaged drivel.Everytime one of the chosen few is caught with his pants down or in a lie, out pops another nose to divert attention. Put your nose back FreddyL and pray that Gene doesn't fart, you're out of your league here.We're trying to have a civilized discussion about building.Gabe
*Gabe. I fear oh nomad that you will never reach Mecca because the road you follow leads to Turkestan. There is neither fireplace nor chimney in the Leger house. Based om Harold Orr's advice(of Saskatchewan Conservation House fame)I placed it outside and about ten feet from the house. No chimney, you say, how in hell did we venmt the instantaneous hot water heater? Doesn't the fact that we placed between 80 to 100 sq. ft of glasss in the south wall tell you anything? The profound difference between a MESH house and active/passive solar houses is :In a solar house the ONLY thing that matters is the solar system.In a MESH house the ONLY thing that natters is the house. Remember what I said about the Magar House--which your lack of response to suggests that you dismiss it as another one of my phantasies--the design intent was a house whose sole source of haat was from occupants and appliances.They didn't quite achieve their goal. They spent SIXTY-FOUR cents for electric heat. Ah, well Gabe, as one door shuts another door closes. GeneL.
*Hi Gene old buddy,Save the words, I'm an atheist.In a solar house the ONLY thing that matters is the solar system. So you're saying that it wouldn't matter if the house leaked like a sieve, the ONLY thing that would matter would be the solar system.In a MESH house the ONLY thing that natters (sic) is the house. So you're saying that it't wouldn't require any heating system at all as long as the house was well built.Now Gene, you know that even Dickey wouldn't be able to generate enough heat to keep a house warm, even if he used both hands.Ah, well Gene, as one door shuts, Gabe blows a hole in it.Gabe
*Mark. The standard practice in the heating business is that 65 degrees F (DF)is the base. It is assumed that buildings do not need heat until the outdoor temperature is between 60 and 65 degrees Fahrenheit.Suppose that for the entire day the outdoor temperature was 40 DF.How manuy degree day are there? 65-40= 25. There are 25 degree days for that day. If during a 24 hour day the maximum outdoor temperature was 50 DF and the minimum temperature was 20DF, the average temperature was 1/2 (50+20)= 35. 65-35=30. There were 30 degree days (DD) for that day. Interesting to hear about your experience with 2x3s. I've been using 2x3s 24 -inches oc for 20 years now in exterior walls.GeneL.
*Gabe. As previously noted you'll never reach Mecca.The active solar system industry nearly destroyed itself because of its obsession with mass and glass. The tightness and insulation levels were ignored and all the emphasis was on solar systems.Solar Age magazine ignored super insulation almost to the end of its existence. When Dr. Dutt and I submitted our paper to the 4th National Passive Conference, ASISES was so upset by a non solar house whose performance surpassed just about all solar houses in the country, they rejected our title "An Unsolar House"(with appologies to 7 UP)and forced on us the title "An Affordable Solar House."I respect you to the extent that I don't use 5th grade language with you. Ergo, you should find the statement "In a MESH house the house is the ONLY thinhg that matters,"crystal clear. Note too that I previously defined a number of times the acronym MESH. The Saskatchewan Conservation House (10,000 DD) required no heat other than that supplied by occupantds and appliances until outside temperature went down to -5 degress..more fiction of course.GeneL.
*Sorry Gene,There's no mecca to reach or get to, it's a figment of your imagination, like houses in cold weather that don't require heat.In Saskatchewan, the temperature goes down to minus 40 on a regular basis, which means the furnace was on half the year. You would have to have wall to wall bodies to generate enough heat to make a significant effect on the heating cost, but it would blow the clean air budget to hell.I'm not a fan of acronyms, say what you mean and mean what you say. Drop the catch phrases, I'm not impressed.Gabe
*Gabe. Why do you persist in claiming that I say, "... houses in cold weather...don't require heat"? I said of the Saskatchewan Conservation House that it required no heat other than that supplied by occupants and appliances until the outside temperature went to -5 below. Where in this statement does it say back-up heat was not necessary? And the $0.64 annual heating bill for the Magar House was provided by a portable electric baseboard. In the mid 1970s I said a MESH house does not require a heating system, only a single point source of heat. Some 22 years later Mark Kelly, Drew Gillette and others such as IBACOS are saying the same thing.The great French essayist Montaigne had you in mind when he said "There is a great deal of self-love and arrogance in judging so highly of your opinions thst you are obligated to disturb the public peace in order to establish them."(1-23) GeneL.
*Hi Gene old buddy,Mr. Montaigne never had a thought of me, in his entire lifetime, nor I of him.Getting a straight answer out of you is like trying to pull teeth out of a 12 foot alligator.It requires 64 cents just to turn on one of those inefficient electric baseboard heaters.Fact: WHEN CALCULATING THE TOTAL COST OF HEATING, ONE MUST INCLUDE ALL HEAT GENERATING ITEMS AND THEIR TOTAL COST OF OPERATION, OTHERWISE ANYONE WHO USES A WOOD BURNING COOKING STOVE HEATS HIS HOUSE FOR NOTHING, BY YOUR DEFINITION.Time to get realistic Gene. Now pick just ONE of your LEGER houses and lets do a proper analysis of the total HONEST cost of heating and the cost to achieve this saving.Let's do it WITHOUT quoting anyone but facts.Gabe
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I was just wondering who this book was written for? Why is such a book of any value to a tradesmen? Everything I learned was taught on the job by carpenters that had learned from carpenters that didnt use a book to learn construction! In my opinion a book like this is used most probably by the weenies in college trying to become construction managers. Have you ever gone out to a subdivision and dealt with one of these idiots that has never swung a framing hammer, that has never roofed a house, that has never poured a foundation, etc....? What a joke! What is our trade coming to when these kids out of college are building homes as superintendants and have never done the job? Take the books away from them and make them learn the good old fashioned way! I would love some input as to what others are seeing in the field. Thanks