Hey,
I’m building a home in Quebec Canada and I’m having trouble deciding on whether or not I should go with an ICF foundation or just a conventional poured foundation with a Platon membrane and styrofoam insulation on the inside wall (locked onto the concrete with ties at pour time http://www.styrorail.com and drywall is fastened directly to it).
The budget is tight. With ICFs, the cost is roughly $20’000 and I’m over budget but I’d be willing to pay extra for more quality.
The other foundation option is 14’500. That’s a big difference in price.
Any opinions?
Thanks,
F.M.
Replies
Any opinions?
Yes.....don't build in Quebec.
Gabe
Thanks for the retarded reply.
F.M.
Wasn't retarded it was timely....Do the language police know you're communicating in English? Quebec is the only province or state in North America where people and business's are fined for having english signs. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
My off the wall comment means is that it doesn't matter which you take, the end result will depend on the contractor doing the job.
If the contractors available are equal then go with the cheapest, the result will be the same and you won't get any better result going to the more expensive system. Both will accomplish the same end results.
Gabe
What does the government's policy on advertising signs have anything to do with foundations?
F.M.
The same government policy that prohibits Ontario workers from working in Quebec. The same people who slash the tires of Ontario construction worker's cars.
Close the borders to workers and kiss competiveness goodbye. The province is run by corruption and it's people are too weak kneed to do anything about it.
Before you call anyone "retarded" remember you're the only one who doesn't know the answer to which system if any is best!!!!!!!!
Now do you want to talk politics or do you want to learn something?
Gabe
I'm not sure which system is the best value and I'm not sure which system is best either.
As for the ontario/quebec thing: To work on a construction site in Quebec, you must be qualified to do so and have proof that you are qualified. In Ontario, the same regulations don't exist, and we've seen te results of this in Ottawa where brand new home start to fall apart from the moment they are built. Crooked walls, improperly poured foundations, leaky roofs, over spaced floor joists... I could go on
Immigrants will come in, do the work for cheap without even knowing the building codes. I have yet to find a house built in the last year in Ottawa Ontario that follows code.
Quebec allows Ontario workers to work in quebec, as long as they are qualified and have proof that they are. Working in construction in Quebec is definitely not the same as in Ontario. Is it better? depends who you are.
Bullsh*t.
1000's of highly qualified construction workers who live in Quebec are not allowed to work in that province because they don't "know" the right somebody or they don't "belong" to the right association.
Some of the boys have even been fined for working on a neighbor's house and one that I know of was put in jail rather than pay the fines.
Every morning, I watch 1000's of them come across the bridges into Ottawa to work on this side of the river. Not much of a line up going the other way.
The quality of houses in Ontario is amongst the best in the world and needs no defending from me.
Good luck with your house.....
Gabe
What I meant by qualified is: The construction worker followed training courses for the trade they want to work in and passed a government test. If he/she passes the test, that person gets a licence for a specific trade. I guess qualified was not the correct word for what I was trying to say.
I am not impliying that the person that has his licence is a better worker that the one that doesn't. I'm just saying those are the rules. A lot of quebec residents don't want to bother passing the tests and training so they just work in Ontario where its less of a hassle to work in construction which is what you've observed. When Ontario tells these people (licence or no licence) that they can longer work in Ontario, of course, they are not happy.
If you want to work in quebec, those are the rules. If you don't like the rules, you work in another province or get out of the business. The same type of rules exist in ontario for engineers. You cannot be considered as an engineer in ontario unless you pass the ontario test. Is that a bad thing? I think ontario has the right to test an engineer that works in their province the same same quebec has the right to test construction workers in quebec.
Anyways, things are supposed to change to make the rules a bit more relaxed in the future.
Again, I'm not saying that one system is better than another and I don't want to get into that discussion.
As for your friend - It is illegal to work on a quebec site without a licence, unless you are building your own house or your parent's/son/daughter/brother/sister's. If you go against this rule, you will be fined.
FM:
I pray that none of my carpenters have to take a government test. They would fail them. But I'll match them with carpenyters anywhere. They are not the best, I'm sure, but they are very very good.
Charlie
Bullsh*t
Can you say "Charter of Rights"
The right to work anywhere in Canada doesn't seem to apply in Quebec's separatist based regime.
The right to work in either of the "2" official languages doesn't seem to apply in Quebec either.
Quebec based construction companies set up empty dummy Ontario offices with communication forwarding to the head office in Montreal or Quebec city and try to raid Ontario contracts by lowballing and not paying Ontario taxes.
Quebec corporations don't know how to do business anywhere without trying to bribe their way politically. Bonbardier can't build a kite without federal loans/grants to pay for the deal. Loans that never seem to be paid back.
The two most crooked Prime Ministers were from Quebec and the legacy continues. When a publisher had the integrity to print about the PM's corrupt deals in Quebec the PM called his buddy who owned the paper and had him fired. So much for freedom of the press...so much for freedom.
So don't you have the gall to make comments about workers getting a fair shake in or around Quebec.
Gabe
OK. You're right. You win. Everything I write here is ####. Happy now?
F.M.
Man, you are one frustrated fella. Relax - breathe in, breathe out.
BTW, its Ontario that elected the two last corrupt prime ministers, not quebec.
I'd like to add that you do have the right to work in quebec. No one ever said that you couldn't. You just have to pass a test first if you're going to be on a contruction site.
I'd really like this conversation to come back to foundation. For example, does anyone have a preference in terms of waterproofing systems - Platon vs Bakor.
Edited 6/21/2002 4:55:51 PM ET by fm
Bullsh*t
What riding elected them? Both Quebec ridings.
As far as your foundation is concerned....you're on your own.
The "A" team is boycotting your posting.
Gabe
Realx Gabe, The guys just another naybob trying to figger out his foundation, Its not like he's got connections to Jach Shirak or anything.
I think what Gabe tried to tell you earlier is that both systems of foundation are approved, both willl support your house, and both will give you the same level of comfort AS LONG AS the crew that work on them is up to snuff on their work. Of Course I'm just another Naybob as well, and I may be misunderstanding things on here... Really I'd be interested to hear more about the pros and cons of the 2 options in your situation, is it purely a money thing??
JAG
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And When I must Leave the Great River, Oh Bury Me Close to its wave,And Let My Canoe and My Paddle, Be the only Mark over my Grave
Zone 5b Brantford Ontario, Canada
No, its not purely a money thing - although it is a big factor.
What I'm interested in is whether the extra money for the ICF foundation is really worth it. Am I really getting my money's worth. I'm starting to wonder if a conventional foundation would be just as good.
One of the reasons why I was interested in ICFs is because in a conventional foundation, the forms are usually removed within 24hrs of the concrete being poured. This doesn't leave much time for the concrete to cure and the water will evaporate too quickly making the foundation weaker. Should I be worried about this?
One of the things I was thinking of doing is to have the concrete poured on a friday so that the forms are removed 3 days later like they should be, on the following monday. With a good waterproofing membrane like the Platon system, my foundation would be just as structurally sound as an ICF foundation, right - i.e.: For holding up a house, it should more than enough. If I add the styrofoam on the inside walls, it should be almost equivalent?
F.M.
Oh no! you're no longer going to reply to my postings? I'm so sad!
In case you didn't know, it is ontario that elected the government with Jean Chretien in charge. Quebec only elected the member of parliament.
F.M.
You sound like you're not old enough to vote yet so I'll enlighten you a one major fact.
Quebec voters wasted their votes on the Quebec communist seperatist party and putting King Chetien back in office.
Quebec held the balance of power and wasted it,,,,,,as usual.
Gabe
Hey,
Weren't you supposed to stop replying to me? Can't stop can you? You're addicted! hahaha.
So ontario elects the government and when things go wrong, you blame quebec, right? great.
Get your head out of that hole man!
F.M.
If you could read you would have understood that I wasn't going to help you anymore with your foundation.
Funny thing about me is that I'm rarely wrong about people and while you have a way to go to be as dumb as Dickey, you're not worth the effort to help.
Gabe
So why waste your time replying to me then - if I'm not worth the effort?
I don't care if you think I'm stupid or not. We may have a difference of opinion but I'll never call you names because of that. Every one is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs and I deeply respect that.
Anyways, I'm just trying to get some information and opinions about concrete foundations not politics. Your opinion seems to be that the standard foundation should suit my needs just fine and I don't REALLY have to go with ICFs - Thank you. Now even though you don't want to help, I'll ask this question to anyone who's interested:
If I go with a standard foundation, should I be worried about the forms being removed after 24 hrs? Like I mentioned in an other post, I think (know) that 24hrs is too early.
Option 1 - Keep the concrete wet after the forms are removed (hard to do) or
Option 2 - Have the concrete poured on a friday so that the froms are removed on the following maonday (not sure if they won't come in on the weekend or not)
Option 3 - Not worry about it. Almost every one builds foundations this way - at least in my region.
F.M.
I can see from this thread you are not especially over sensitive so here are my opinions.
1. option three, the majority does it that way and they are never wrong!
2. take the test, do it yourself and save a bundle, no problem you can leave the forms for amonth while your back heals.
3. proper drainage is probably way mor important than the curing time of the concrete.
4. Is foundation failure a real problem in your area, or do you just like to worry? If so maybe you should just hire a general contractor to build the house, and stay out of the way till it is done.
nuff said Dan
Thanks,
You're right. I do tend to worry too much about things.
I think I'll go with a conventional foundation with a good waterprof membrane and styrofoam insulation attached to the foundation on the inside walls of the foundation. I'll backfill with the proper crushed stone to ensure good drainage.
F.M.
You can click on Gabe's name, which will pop up a new window. Then pick the thing that says "Ignore Posts".
That's what I've done, since he has chosen to be the way he is. Makes the threads a lot more pleasant to read.
What happened to that old "internet troll" thread???
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
Or you can click on Boss Hog's name and click on ignore and you will have eleminated a whole lot of poor construction advise from a holier than thou judgemental hypocrite.
Gabe
Dude-
I'm amazed and amused to read this thread and see once again how you ride on people.
You must be the only one on the 'A' team. Lonely? I would suggest using the 'ignore' button, that way you'll eventually have no one to argue with and try to offend.
What a puerile attitude. What an a-hole.
Ken Hill
Edited 6/21/2002 2:50:31 PM ET by Ken Hill
What did you add to the discussion other than an unsolicited insult?
Funny how some people have to judge others to make themselves feel superior.
I for one would be curious to hear from you, the "B" team, on which is better.
Gabe
Hey Dude.....ya right.
It's not Platon vs Bakor it's both.
One is a waterproof and the other is a vapour barrier.
First you apply the standard damproofing or vb and then you add the layer of platon to both protect your vb and divert water to the footing drainage system.
Gabe
Hey,
I meant which waterproofing membrane? Platon, or Bakor WP200? Personally, I think that Platon is the better design, as long as its properly installed.
F.M.
Glad to see you're getting the help from Gabe which he was going to deny to you.
Ken Hill
No matter what I think about you, I hate to see anyone waste money on something that doesn't give a return.
Politics aside, this is a construction site first and everyone has a reasonable expectation of accurate information from those of us in the industry.
Gabe
Gabe-
I do appreciate your willingness to share information on this site. Yes, this is first and foremost a consruction site, and the dissemination of knowledge is why we are all here. I don't know you from Adam, but I have read many of your posts and have benefitted from what I've learned. Thankyou.
My observation of the way you were communicating with fm was what put up a red flag for me. I must say, IMHO, that I saw you throw the first punch, dissing and trying to put him down.
I beleive there is lots of room for disagreement on this site, but I also beleive with that comes a responsibility to do so in a way which begets respect.
Ken Hill
I'll be interested to see which option you use. I'm currently pricing ICQs in Alaska and am prepared to install both the footers and the walls myself.
Good luck.
David
My son and I fish in Canada every year. With the current exchange rate our running joke is "what does that amount to, about a buck ninety eight American?" We use this from grocery items to cabin rental. So, foundation cost doesn't matter cause it amounts to about "a buck ninety eight" American. BTW, why is USA "America" when Canada and Mexico is also in Norte America?
oooookkkkkkkaaaayyyyyyy .........
Delighted as I was to read the post (having abandoned la bell province for political reasons five years ago) I shall attempt to address the initial issue at hand and leave the politicing to people who still care (at least till the end of this post).
I used ICFs (BlueMaxx, or AAB, or whatever the call themselves these days) for the basement and main floor walls of my house. My experience suggests that, while there are many advantages to the approach, workmanship is very important.
For example, I caught my contractor not following the required installation procedure of installing diagonal rebars, etc., on windows, and a few other things. In addition, because the blocks are, well blocks, there tends to be a fair bit of irregularity to the walls, which may or may not be visible depending on how bad the problem is (and the level of finish). Several of my walls had a tilt to them, again due to bad workmanship. I don't believe these are typical problems for a traditional poured foundation.
Waterproofing can be very challenging as the 'stick on' stuff won't stick unless the forms are perfectly clean, which is not exactly the way things are on a building site. Happily, it basically dissolves after a couple of months exposure to sunlight, which means backfill ASAP. Spray on works much better, but it has to be compatible with the foam.
In order to meet code in Ontario (and I could tell stories for hours about corruption and brazen incompetence about the 'legal' trades in Quebec) you have to cover the foam insulation with drywall, which is a pain if you want to leave your basement unfinished for now. All your in wall stuff like plumbing and electrical have to be done different so unless you do it yourself (in Ontario, you can do all your work yourself, including electrical, and have it deemed kosher by the appropriate inspector). Expect to pay through the nose for it.
Finally (almost finally) parging is a bit of a treat. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Once I find a product which will actually work. More likely I'll remove the outside insulation off the 'brick ledge' and parse the concrete.
The major benefit is that the walls seem strong, warm and quiet, once you deal with the issues associated with poor workmanship.
So I would use ICF again in the unlikely event I built myself another house, however I would closely supervise all the work, and not make any assumptions that a company certified installer knows or cares how to do the job.
Construction workers in Quebec don't have to be competent, just a member of the union. You cannot work legally in the trades, unless you are a member of one of a few government certified unions. Getting a card is very difficult, and you can't get a union card, except under very rare circumstances, unless you live there. If you lose your job, you may lose your union membership. That is why most of the renovation work is done 'under the table', un-inspected, (and undeclared for income taxes), and why non-quebecers are essentially banned from working there. Sound healthy? Sure it does. The government loves you.