Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 13, 2000 08:38pm | #1

   *

   Gray,

   The condensation is on the attic floor outside the box or in the box? I couldn't tell from your post.

   Contrary to the popular belief around here condensation is a warming process. When the energy in the water vapor is given up to the colder surface the vapor changes state and liquefies. You would probably need to put more insulation between the top of the referg. and the attic floor, that is if that's where the condensation is occurring.

   Joseph Fusco

   View Image

   "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato

2. 
   Gary_F._Cote | Feb 13, 2000 09:11pm | #2

   *
   The water is leaking into the box through the ceiling and accumulating on the floor.

3. 
   Guest_ | Feb 13, 2000 09:56pm | #3

   *

   Gary,

   The attic in your restaurant my be very hot. My guess is that with all the cooking going on, lots of moisture is being added to the air, every time you open the box door, warm air moves in. This increases the amount of moisture in the box, the fact that the attic is so hot causes this moisture to condense on the ceiling. The same fix would apply

   Joseph Fusco

   View Image

   © 1999

   "The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."

   Aristotle

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 13, 2000 10:27pm | #4

   *Gary, I am reading your posts as "water is coming THROUGH the ceiling in the walk-in" Something in the attic is cold enough to be a condensing surface. You make no mention of any insulation in your discription of the walls or ceiling, but there must be something other than 1/4" plywood and fiberglass panels.Is the ceiling insulation open to view in the attic? What is up there? Sounds like a bacterial breeding ground, with direct access to your food storage. Joe H

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 13, 2000 11:43pm | #5

   *Fred,

   The difference between you and me is, I can easily admit to a mistake or error. You on the other hand, well everyone knows the answer to that.

   Gary,

   Water vapor that is contained in air will try and warm up any cold surface it should encounter, at anytime. Not as Lugano states . . . "Condensation will show on the coldest surfaces first." The exchange of energy is not selective, it doesn't pass up one cold surface for a colder one. It reacts with each surface it encounters when it encounters it. How much energy that is transfered at the time of the encounter determines whether or not the vapor liquefies. A colder surfaces will draw (for lack of a better word) more energy for the vapor causing it to change state and condense on the surface. There's no mystery here (except for Lugano).The problem is that every time you open the door of the box you let warm moist air in, this air will raise and the first surface it is likely to encounter is the ceiling of you refreg. box. Even though the attic has warmed up the ceiling, the energy transfer at the ceiling is still great enough to cause the state change of the water vapor so it condenses.Prevent moisture from entering the box and the problem will go away, its that simple.

   Joseph Fusco View Image© 1999 "The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 2000 05:28am | #6

   *Fred,

   That's it? That's the come back. . .? Jezz you really don't have a clue. . . Have you figured out the jars yet? I didn't think so. Hey Fred, you and Babe have the same ISP, did you know that? I thought you'd just like to know. . .

   Anyway. . .We're all here . . . ready to read the "Lugano" explaination to the simple problem of moisture in the box. . . the drum roll please. . . . . . . . . . . .

   Joseph Fusco View Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 2000 05:45am | #7

   *Fred,

   Since your the "expert" . . . you'd have no use for this either. . . but maybe the regular guys might.

   Hidden Heat

   This issue might seem odd at first glance. Its major impactin relation to the "living space" comes in winter. The processes by whichwater changes "state", from liquid to gas and from solid to liquid are referred to as "Heat of Fusion and Meltingof Fusion." In both case, although heat is constantly added to thesolid or the liquid, the temperature of the solid or liquid remains thesame. It seems to appears that the added heat has disappeared into theheated substance without changing its temperature. Ifheat is energy, it must be conserved, this hidden heat cannot be lost.

   Melting or Fusion

   If heat is conserved, this heat can notbe lost. To find out what happens to this heat, we must first considerthe change in state at which a solid becomes a liquid. This change is calledfusionor melting. In particular consider what happens to the heatthat is absorbed by the particular solid, ice, it melts to become water.Youcould see this at home if you took some ice cubes and put them in a panon the stove. Put a thermometer in the pan and see what it reads. No matterhow high you turn up the flame, the temperature of the solution will notraise about 0 until all the ice is melted.

   Heat of Fusion

   The above illustrates two important facts concerning fusionor melting. First, to melt each unit of mass of a solid like ice, a definitequantity amount of heat must be applied to it. Second, in  crystallinesolids like ice, although heat is added to melt the solid, the temperatureremains the same during the melting process. The heat needed to melt onegram of a solid at its melting point is called theheat of fusion. The temperature at which a solid melts is calledit's melting point. For ice, (which is something we see a lot of in winter)we know that it's melting point under normal atmospheric conditions is32 degrees F. or 0 degrees C.It is a fixed quantity of heat for any particular solidcrystalline substance but different from substance to substance.Theheat of fusion for ice is 80 calories per gram. All this means thatit takes 80 calories for heat to melt one gram ice at 0 degrees C. withoutchanging it temperature!  

   Vaporization

   The change in state of which a liquid changes to a gas is calledvaporization.The temperature a which a liquid vaporizes under normal atmospheric conditionsis called it's boiling point. Different liquidshave different boiling points.It is important to also understand that it takes a definite quantityof heat to change a give mass of a liquid into a gas. In the case of waterthat quantity is appro. 540 calories per gram. This means that oncewater reaches 100* C. an additional 540 calories of heat is need to changeone gram of water to steam.

   Condensation a Heating Process

   As in the case of steam, if at 100*C. steam is allowed to cool,it will begin to change back to water at the same temperature (100*C.)In this process the steam is losing heat but, it's temperature remainsthe same at 100*C. The change in which steam turns back to a liquid iscalled condensation.Condensation and boiling take place at the same temperature.However,in condensation heat is being given up bya substance, while in boiling, heat is being absorbed by the substance.Inthe case of water, for every gram of steam the turns to water 540 caloriesof heat is released.

   Evaporation a Cooling Process

   The gradual change of a liquid into a gas without boiling.The molecules of any liquid are in a constant state of motion. The averagespeed of the molecules depends only on the temperature, but individualmolecules may be moving at a speed far greater or far less than the average.At temperatures below the boiling point, individualmolecules approaching the surface with above-average speed may have enoughenergy to escape from the surface and pass into the space above as gasmolecules. As only the fastest molecules escape, the average speed of theremaining molecules is lowered; and since the temperature, conversely,depends only on the average speed of the molecules, the temperature ofthe remaining liquid is also lowered. In other words, evaporation isa cooling process; a drop of water placed on the skin feels cool as itevaporates; a drop of alcohol, which evaporates more rapidly than water,feels even colder.

   Joseph Fusco View Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

2. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 2000 07:27am | #8

   *Fred & Gary, I think someone at some time has opened the outer shell of the reefer to repair the refrigeration unit or possibly install new lighting? The moist outside air is now getting inside the formerly sealed shell (think of a thermos, with it's vacuum chamber) and is condensing on the cold surface and running out through openings in the ceiling. How long this has been going on probably will affect the amount of damage done inner structure. How to repair? Find the leak and seal it will probably stop the immediate rain, but there could be a real mess hidden in the ceiling and walls.Gary, what can you see in the attic? Is the top of the cooler hidden, or fairly visible? Anything to be seen in the way of plumbing? Has someone installed a medicine cabinet or anything into one of the walls in the resturant? Installed a sign on one of the outside walls and poked some holes through the wall? What do you think, Fred? Am I on the right trail? Joe H

3. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 2000 08:47am | #9

   *Fred,

   HA HA HA, you go through all that to say I'll give you my answer tomorrow? Maybe you can call someone by then to give you the answer. I'll bet tomorrow Gary will still have to much moisture in the box. Any clue yet on the jars. . . ? How's Babe. . . ? You're pathetic. . . LOL.

   Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

4. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 2000 09:28am | #10

   *Dear Joe,You're very warm. Consider now what could force huge volumes of warm, humid outdoor air to flow downward from a vented attic to contact the refer shell. And what Gary could do to stop that.Impressed, Fred

5. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 2000 09:42am | #11

   *Fred, I see you've given me the clue that I should have thought of myself. Every time the door opens the kitchen exhaust fans suck a new batch of moist attic air into the unintentionally vented shell of the reefer, the now de-humidified previously attic air goes through the ceiling leaks into the box & out the door. Since the attic is vented to the outside, there is an inexhaustible supply of soggy air waiting to be dried by the refrigeration system. What has happened to the electric bill and repairs to the overloaded refrigeration system since this problem started? And what sort of damage to the outer shell caused it? Did some damage occur to an outside wall that was repaired without considering that it had caused a breach in an interior vapor barrier? As to what Gary could do to cure the problem, first choice would be to find the holes in the cooler's outer envelope. I suspect that the interior of the walls & ceiling will probably need some repairs due to water damage, maybe mold growth since this has been going on through at least one summer. In order to contine the "Vent-no-Vent" battle, he could seal the attic vents instead. It certainly would be a round about means to an end, but it might work if he could find every tiny crack. Might also hook a door switch to the vent fan, or open another bigger hole in the kitchen space. Something makes me think you have a better answer, but I don't see it right now. More clues please?Mystery stuff from long distance......Joe H

6. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 2000 04:07pm | #12

   *

   Well, that's it. You two guys have cracked the case. You have figured out that there is to much moisture in the box (give me a break). Better yet, you also figured out he gets that moisture every time he opens the door (go figure?).

   Lugano's solution. . . Put 6 tons of celluose in your attic.

   It may have paid to "build the box a little better", you always still can. I'd just refer to my orginal suggestion. Good luck.

   Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato

7. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 2000 08:28pm | #13

   *Reality Check.I didn't hear Fred prescribe that for this situation any more than I heard you prescribe wrapping the box in saran wrap and punching some holes in the roof.At least Fred and Joe are trying to figure out WHY there is too much moisture in the box. Maybe you could lend a little insight into that.Most little boys grow up and stop throwing rocks at people.Steve

4. 
   Cote_Gary_F | Feb 14, 2000 09:34pm | #14

   *
   My problem started 2 years ago when the state told me that all walls had to be finished. I put up the fiberglas board that Home Depot sells for $28.50 a sheet.
   As the weather got more humid that is when the water problem started.
   Here is a cross section on how the box is built.
   ============== attic space with 4-6" blownin insulation
   ============== some sort of paper type board 1/2" thick
   xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 2x3"s witn reg. fiberglas insulation
   -------------- 1/4" a/c plywood
   -------------- 2nd layer of 1/4" plywood

   After my season was over I pulled the fiberglas from the ceiling thinking the moisture was condensating between the plywood and fiberglas.
   Problem started again when the warm weather hit and water started dripping from a seam in the ceiling.
   I never had problems before 2 years ago so I am baffled as to why this started.
   As far as I can tell there is no vapor barrier around the box.
   Gary

1. 
   Cote_Gary_F | Feb 14, 2000 09:36pm | #15

   *Sorry the ascii graphis didn't post like I wanted them toBut I think you can figure out what I drew.Gary

5. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 2000 02:48am | #16

   *

   Steve,

   How can someone with no reality (you), check someone else's reality?

   "Most little boys grow up and stop throwing rocks at people."

   I disagree, they grow up and kill millions and call themselves conquerors. . .

   Buy any good books lately?

   Joseph Fusco

   View Image

   © 1999

   "The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."

   Aristotle

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 2000 03:17am | #17

   *Gary,

   Today I went to a warehouse near where I live, I buy my meat there (Western Beef). The place is one giant refrigerator. The meat department is separated form the main store, it has those typical hanging strips of plastic in the doorways. The first thing I did when I walked in was to look at the ceiling, no condensation. The condensing units hang from the ceiling, there where about twenty of them.

   The way they work is that they draw air in across the fins which cools and also causes the moisture in the air to condense and then this air is blown back into the room. The condensation collects in a pan and is drained away. Each unit is plumbed for this. Seemed like everything was working fine.

   I began to speak with Mario, he's my butcher. I said there is this guy who owns a small restaurant and has a small walk-in box, he has a problem with condensation on the ceiling. To my surprise he says; sounds like the box is to close to the kitchen, does it happen a lot in the summer? I thought it was pretty good for a butcher. He said he knew of a couple of people who had the same problem. He didn't have a solution except for moving the box.

   After reading your lastest post it became quite apparent that the reason why you noticed the problem after you made the changes to box was because you made a better box. If you could post a picture of the box and its location that would help a great deal.

   Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 2000 03:25am | #18

   *Fred, alternate scenario....Gary's place is a dive. Rats the size of cats have pilfered all the insulation to line their rat condos. They have also gnawed large holes through the walls behind the groceries for easy access to after hours meals. Gary is cooling the entire attic now, and the whole place is draining into the reefer?Nah, that's probably not it either. Is Global Warming a possibility? What makes you think there is something besides the usual kitchen ventilation system that would cause additional negative pressure? Or are you implying that the, Oh! Hot damn! Just flashed on the word "WAS" in your description of the make-up air system. Are you implying that the kitchen has become semi sealed and the ventilators are now pulling air through whatever openings are available? Back to those big rats, must be a big fat one stuck in one of the fresh air vents? That's it, I'm out of ideas again. Joe H

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 2000 04:34pm | #19

   * Fred,

   For a guy who types so damn much you say so little. This is typical Lugano style. . .

   That whole drivel severs to prove you don't have a clue about what's wrong or do you care. . . Quick Gary, run out a get a blower test. . . (give me a break)

   Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 2000 05:14pm | #20

   *Hey Joe, you can't post to this thread any more, Fred says it's solved and over.Vince

2. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 2000 07:22pm | #21

   *Get a life Joe.

3. 
   Guest_ | Feb 16, 2000 03:16am | #22

   * Steve,

   I have a good life. . . Unlike yours which you try desperately to live vicariously through Fred Lugano's life. In retrospect it would be you who needs to get a life. . .

   Joseph Fusco View Image "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato

4. 
   Guest_ | Feb 16, 2000 06:57am | #23

   *Fred,

   You mock me for my spelling. . . I'll mock you for everything but. It's just like your pretentious ass to think that just because someone has a "stated" profession that their observations or opinions of anything but that profession should be discounted. But, it could be worse. . . He could be like you. . . Have a "stated profession" that he knows absolutely nothing about.

   Try reading a few more "boiler manuals". . . it might help you with the jars.

   Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

5. 
   Guest_ | Feb 16, 2000 04:00pm | #24

   *Fred,

   You're statement is correct. . . it would take the average high school student to acomplish all that you have in about two weeks.

   Now. . . about those jars. . . . ?

   Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

6. 
   Guest_ | Feb 16, 2000 07:20pm | #25

   *I like my life a lot, Joe. I hope you like yours too. But for someone who has it so good, you carry around an awful lot of anger. I feel sorry for you.Maybe you'll get right in your next incarnation. Or at least move up the ladder a little bit.Steve

7. 
   Guest_ | Feb 16, 2000 09:29pm | #26

   *Excellent analysis Fred, I hope Gary will do the tests and post the results. As I read through all the messages in this thread, the following quote from Robert Burns came often to mind (well actually the gist of it, I had to look the actual quote up). Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel's as others see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us,And foolish notion.

6. 
   Gary_F._Cote | Feb 16, 2000 09:31pm | #27

   *
   I own a restaurant that has a walk-in refrigerator approx. 6'x9'x7' high.
   The refer is built in the back room. 2 walls are on outside walls and 2 inside walls. The ceiling of the walk-in is built with 2x4's and butts the ceiling. The walls of the walkin are 1/4" plywood covered with white fiberglas foodservice grade panels. The ceiling as far as I know has no vapor barrier and in the summer "sweats" real bad and water puddles on the floor. What can I do to stop this? Do I need to remove the panels and put plastic or something else on the walls and ceiling to stop this?? The walkin is 38° and the attic will reach over 100° in the summer.

   Thanks Gary