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We presently have very large rectangles of gravel held in by what should have been “pressured-treated lumber. They climb a gentle slope and are usually buried in snow by early winter. Concrete slab is out due to frostheave. The so-called “pressure treated” is
cracked and eaten by Carpenter ants and rotting! Any suggestions on replacements or a better plan? Someone suggested asphalt fill?
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Someone wants me to build something like this... Gravel is nice because it is cheap and easy to repair. How about real burial-rated pressure-treated timbers, secured by rebar stakes? Use wood preservative on cut ends.
*Katie160p,You've got insects eating walmonized lumber?I would like to know more about this.Ed. Williams
*Hi Katie , how about creosoted railroad ties ? I've seen them used this way several times . I'd stick with the gravel though , seems to me asphalt or any ridgid fill would be subject to frost heave , plus gravel would help drain the water away one of the main ingredients for rot . Good luck , Chuck
*Ditto Chuck,Nothing eats creosote. Ed. Williams
*Simple, they pressure treat soaking wet lumber, preservative doesn't enter more than 1/8", cracks develop as it dries and the ants move in, virgin jack pine, perfect for ants nest.
*Carcinogen?
*Isn't everything ? Probably should have included a disclaimer [ wear gloves when handleing , dont lick fingers , dont put in mouth ,etc. etc. ]
*Carpenter ants don't eat the wood, only burrow in it, so they're unaffected by most treatments. Creosote seems noxious enough keep most bugs away, but I don't know if the old railway ties are legal for ground use in NY.
*Yes, the ants only live in rotting wood too, so they're just more evidence the wood is not holding up.On carcinogenicity, I guess I should say creosote is worse than most and shouldn't be used where humans will touch it or vegetables will be grown etc. Coal tar creosote (there are others, including one made from the creosote bush) contains a grab-bag of a few hundred different compounds. It is hard to find credible sources on the Internet (at least quickly), but here is an EPA comment -- http://www.epa.gov/grtlakes/seahome/housewaste/house/woodpre.htm -- I think it is more an industrial-use material. CCA timbers, still not a favorite of mine, if sealed and well drained will last a long time, and are easy to replace.A better choice for in-ground application is masonry, IMHO. I guess I haven't come across a nice simple (non-backbreaking) way to do this. On a gradual slope, flagstones will stay put OK. I suppose you could pour concrete borders, or use brick/paver soldiers to confine the steps.
*What about using the prefabricated curbs that you see in parking lots? I think FHB had a article about that. They're held in place by rebar hammered into the soil.
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Wal...what? It's supposed to be pressurized (shouldn't rot for 30years in the ground.. Hah!) 4X6s. We have been spraying the timbers with Bonide to try to control the Carpenter ants. There's one timber so chewed up the whole top is splintered.
*Well we either talk to the ants or the home lumber center that we bought this junk from! But we don't presently use the steps... we walk downhill on the grass. We don't really want to replace them with more headaches and I keep asking about concrete bunkers or something our ants can't chew on.
*I like this idea but nobody seems to know where I'd get something like this. Also, I have just been informed that pressure-treated means arsenic impregnated and creosote is different. We do have pressure-treated and since these are right above our well maybe this whole thing needs an eco-re-think as in (we may be slowly messing with the water?)
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Katie , how about steel angle iron pinned with long spikes or re-bar . It'll eventually rust away ,but probably not in our lifetime .Chuck
*Katie,I guess concrete is going to be the way to go.Sorry.Your water well is important. No chems allowed.I like the concrete curb idea.Ed. Williams
*Katie:Here is some info about treated lumber:CCA lumber, commonly called pressure treated lumber, or Wolmanized (a brand name) is treated with Chromated Copper Arsenate.CCA wood should not be used for food service or preparation - i.e. CCA wood is inappropriate for use as a cutting board. It should also not be used as fire wood. The EPA has said that CCA lumber is OK for children's playground equipment.When working with CCA wood one's hands should be washed before eating or using tobacco products. My guess is that most of the people involved in this forum know this, but I bet many have not carefully abided by these rules - if CCA was dangerous, I bet there would be significantly fewer participants in these discussions!Here is an article that discounts the danger of CCA wood:http://www.acsh.org/publications/story/wood/index.htmlAnd an article by the EPA which does the same:http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/citizens/1file.htmHere is another URL for information about CCA lumber.http://www.awpi.org/oaq-q.htmlI understand your concern for your well water, but does this also mean that you don't use any pesticides (CCA is basically a pesticide) or chemical fertilizers in your lawn or garden? Are all your fruits, vegetables, and meats organically grown? I also have to assume that you have used no oil based paints or stains around your house - most all of them contain VOCs that are considered unhealthy for long-term acute exposure.I think CCA lumber is a prudent choice for your application, and if the previously installed treated lumber did not hold up for at least 10 or 15 years, it was of inferior quality. Pressure treated lumber is rated according to the amount of preservative that it has absorbed; .40 or higher for ground contact. Usually .20 for above ground use. Often, landscape grade lumber is not rated - and therefore is of unknown quality. Concrete would work well too, but will be 2x the work. If you do locate some of those concrete curbs, I bet the health risk to the person's back who installs them will be much more significant than that of CCA preservatives possibly leaching into a well that is potentially 100s of feet deep!Personally, I'd go what ever would look the best without being too much trouble (read money) and would last a reasonable number of years.
*Why not use concrete slabs 3-4" thick on gravel let them float?
*Right on Don!What goes up, must come down!blue
*Katie, there is some continuing debate over CCA-treated wood, enough for a couple of companies to come out with CCA alternatives. The lumber industry swears up and down the stuff is safe; the EPA isn't entirely sure what it thinks. In its chemically bound form, CCA is not supposedly harmful, though at the same time the EPA and lumber industry warn you to wear a dust mask when cutting it and collect all sawdust for disposal(?). I wonder what poison is released by the heat of cutting the lumber. But of course I use the stuff, especially for structural things outside.The one thing everyone agrees on is that the ashes of burned CCA wood are DEADLY. Because all waste in my area is incinerated, I wonder where this stuff ends up. I am curious how this debate will play out. I have a feeling CCA will gradually disappear from the market, but don't know whether this is good or bad. And I don't trust the EPA to find the answer.always skeptical... ad
*I thought your original post meant that the existing wood is NOT pt? If so, it'd only be expected to last a few years, depending on the species. You can use naturally rot-resistant species such as cedar, redwood, & cypress too, though they come at a price. Again, I like using rocks or concrete -- heck, they'll last for millions of years in the ground.
*KatieForget using treated lumber or creosoted lumber if this is in the vicinity of your well water. Companies can print all the literature they want telling you how their products are environmentally safe, but for the most part, why take the chance? Alternatives such as concrete and even the pinned angle iron would be safer in the long run. Matt G. brings up a good point about pesticide use. These days everyone uses one kind or another for lawn and garden use. So many people use these, that everyone thinks they're OK. But they 're not. Most are forms of poison, and poison is simply not OK. Formaldehyde is present in just about all types of plywoods, particle boards, etc. Since plywood is invaluable to carpenters, we use it readily and trust the companies who vouch that the formaldehyde level in each panel is too minute to harm us. But there have been documented cases where formaldehyde levels in some homes have caused allergy flare-ups and flu-like symptoms to their occupants. Don't get me wrong. Plywood, MDF, and other sheet goods are valuable products, and until something better comes along, I will continue to use them daily; but you see, I don't have a choice. In many cases there are no adequate substitues for their usage. But in your case there are. Don't choose a toxic material (no matter how small the toxicity) if you can afford to substitue with a like material that is not toxic. Concrete won't hurt you (unless it falls on you!) Sorry for all the rambling. Hope you choose wisely.DAVO
*The comment about hurting your back is apt too! I am sensitive to the problems caused by polluted soil, however; many practices of the past have caused massive headaches today, such as the burial of oil tanks in the ground. Considering how enduring the use of lead and asbestos were in building, mostly because of industry lobbying. (I can't believe it took until the 80's to ban lead!)You might also consider bricks or concrete pavers for the steps, contained by timbers of concrete and resting on gravel & sand. Whatever option you choose will involve some sweat equity depending on the condition of your hillside ... flagstones probably being the easiest if the soil is stable. As someone pointed out, rough stairs are often actually safer because people pay attention to what they're doing.
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You guys are terrific! What wonderful responses!I took one from column A (no pun intended)... Anything toxic jeopardizes the well..
and one from column B... Curbs sound very interesting and then there's C... concrete/asphalt may just frost heave under minus 20 conditions. We do still like the LOOK of lumber (but certainly not the wildlife!) Sooo...
last nite we did a search and came up with
http://www.xpotentialproducts.com out of Winnepeg. They offer Mitee Lite Curbs, 6x6x8 Multi-purpose posts and Impact Curbs with a 75-100 yr. guarantee....
because they're recycled plastics!!! Made to look like lumber but yeah we will still deal with "sweat equity." We're trying to find out now if they have any distributors in our area. NO TOXINS, NO ANTS, they can be cut, drilled and painted. If anyone is curious I'm attaching a file. Thanks again for all the suggestions let's hope this works.
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Katie:
Plastic wood!! Pretty neat!
I wasn't totally serious about the chemicals are OK thing, just exercising my right to free speech! This time I'm going to spare you the long babble and say... here's an idea… how about this??!!
http://www.anchorwall.com/index.html
I think these (or something similar) are available at most home centers.
*Oh, those recycled products ... absolutely deadly. Just kidding! :)Be sure to inspect a sample before taking the plunge -- some of what you see of the Internet is too good to be true, including the advice here sometimes...Thanks for the website ... it may help me out too.
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Hi Matt! Checked out that website and it actually gives you distributors based on distance from your zip code (supply center only 23miles away from us.) Deeply neat products. I like the stone look and we will eventually be doing our own masonry as a surround on the lower portion of the house and this could look even better. Maybe even use a colored small-grade stone for filler.
Good idea on the getting of samples! Did that, been there with cultured stone used on a hearth and it was worth the wait. If the plastic lumber is available I may just think about it for future gardens (better not to poison the veggies.)
Thanks again.
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Oh, duh -- there's always the article on retaining walls/stairs to look at in the current issue of our beloved sponsor:
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We presently have very large rectangles of gravel held in by what should have been "pressured-treated lumber. They climb a gentle slope and are usually buried in snow by early winter. Concrete slab is out due to frostheave. The so-called "pressure treated" is
cracked and eaten by Carpenter ants and rotting! Any suggestions on replacements or a better plan? Someone suggested asphalt fill?