Construction adhesive and the Home Depot
This is my first post – I’m new to this site. I’ve read Fine Homebuilding for about 15 years. I’ve worked part-time at remodeling for about 30 years. It was what I did while during the off-season when I owned a greenhouse business. It was a natural extension of the trades needed to run a greenhouse: carpentry, plumbing, electrical, masonry, marketing, finance…. I was able to use the same lawyer in court whether it was for collecting from bad debts from landscapers or homeowners.
As with all small businesses, the market continually changes and eventually I realized that the people telling me I had to lower my prices were soon going to become my employer whether I understood it or not. I’m a good tradesman; I can’t design anything, but show me a print or talk to me for a while and be ready to sign a stack of change orders when I lay them in front of you – ideas cost money. Even better than a tradesman, I was slightly better with finance. I accepted the news the financial statements were sending several years ago and closed the business. I sold it to people who will eventually realize they knew a lot more about plants than financial planning. (Lucky me, eh?Damed right – they paid cash!)
Here’s the reason I wrote the stuff above: The website instructions said, “Introduce yourself, let us know about you….”
Here’s the part everyone likes: I work for Home Depot. I’ve mentioned this in other sites and believe me, I get dumped on. So here’s your opening – rip into me, it’s okay. Send me something I haven’t read for a change. The sooner I get this out of the way, the sooner I find-out who to ignore. To add fuel to a few fires let me tell you, I love working for Home Depot. The people I work with are just about like me; it would take a minute to think of a person out of the hundred I work with I really don’t like. My bosses don’t even know how to act like a “boss.” They honestly don’t care how old an employee is – I’m 57 and have been there several years. I had a heart attack and was off work for several months. HD really came through. One more thing: I work at the Pro Desk. I’m actually one of the most knowledgeable people on the sales floor. So to those of you who want to dump on Home Depot, let it fly.
Customers have always let me know just how little I know – whether it has to do with plants or home-improvement. I enjoy knowing the few things I’m certain of.
Somebody help me with this: When framing a wall on a concrete floor or attaching carpet strip to a floor, using “cut-nails”, nails designed for this, tap-con screws, no matter what, they always cause “spalling”. No method has worked worth a damned. I framed a screened porch about 10 years ago; the cut-nails seemed to work at the time. The people I did the work for still live there and we’ve become “friends” of-a-sort. I see them several times a year and they still refer clients. Last summer I was on the porch with them and “Sylvia” kicked the base-plate and looked at me pointedly.
It moved.
“Jim, for what we paid you this damned thing, it should last forever.” (Oh great – refund time after a decade!)
I’ve been using construction adhesive in place of nails for about 8 years and haven’t yet had a problem like “Sylvia’s” or Sylvia.
Here’s my observation: Construction adhesive doesn’t just work – it really does the job. I’ve had to remove base-plates I glued down with construction adhesive. The adhesive always remains; the walls have never moved. It’s a reliable technique, but I’ve never seen it talked about in the trade magazines I read.
Am I reading the wrong stuff?
Who has experience with this technique? I know I’m not imagining how well it works.
For the guys I baited with my HD resume, don’t bother. I want to hear from people who are adults, grown-ups.
Thanks to everyone else.
Replies
Welcome to Breaktime. No rant from me about Lowes, but I'm glad you're ready because others may.
When I worked for a framer, we used construction adhesive all the time to glue plates to concrete floors. We also added a few hardened nails made to drive into concrete. Sometimes the concrete did spall. Worked better when concrete was still green. Guy I work with now had a nailer that uses a .22 blank to shoot the nail into the concrete. This works almost all of the time. I've seen on This Old House where they drill holes and use special nails that have a slight bend to them and they claim those work very well. Don't really have a good answer for you. Sometimes (rarely) the glue lets go. I suppose you could fix it with Tap-cons (assuming you can get to the bottom plate).
Theree's always a mix of people, good and bad, in any group. HD and Lowes have many good, experienced, knoiwledgeavble employees .... they also have many duds. I have two complaints about HD: like many, many stores thay are selling cheap stuff that does not last. And it is very hard to find an employee to help in the aisles. maybe that's because they keep the staff level as low as possible. At least at lowes you can ring the call button.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Use a Remington or Hilti ram-set nailer. (They sell the remingtons at Home Depot). With the right fastener and the right load, it works every time.
If you predrill the right size hole (i.e. diameter and depth) for a Tapcon screw, no spalling should occur.
> ... Remington or Hilti ram-set nailer. (They sell the remingtons at Home Depot).
Interesting. Here the local HD is very heavy into Hilti. They even have Hilti employees in uniform staffing their corner of the tool section.
HD's vary a lot from store to store. The local one here is OK for plumbing, but lousy for lumber. The one over the hill is good for lumber, but they never re-stock what they run out of in plumbing. They both have a lot of young, high-turnover, low wage employees who aren't interested in finding out what hardware cloth or red rosin paper might be.
-- J.S.
John: I've been to a HD in VA that had a huge HILTI display, plus a HILTI guy who spent a lot of time in the store. Our HD here in JAwja has just a smattering of HILTI stuff. If I hadn't been to the store in VA, I'd have never known there was a HD-HILTI connection.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
I love this.
Mr Peachcar, the originator, comes in, stirs the pot with "don't insult MY Home Depot" and then goes away.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Hey, I'll do it the right way. That heart attack I mentioned was about 10 weeks ago. It was the second I've had and I'm still dealing with the doctor and rehab appointments.
The responses have been thorough. I've never thought about the age of the concrete; I've never dealt with a wet basement; counter-sinking the top of the floor.... Like I said, I've never thought about these things.
Thanks for the insights.
WIth tapcons in some concrete, I will "countersink" the top of the hole with a larger bit to help with the spalling.
Is it spalling so wide that the baseplate does not cover it?
As a small time renovater and special projects guy I never have had a big problem with the H/D and Lowes and have received help and instruction in more than one aisle.
A lot does depend on location, even in the same city.
And everyone that braggs about how well a lumberyard treats you- I guess I don't have the budgets that get me any of the services that the big builders get, like returning my calls and actually placing the special orders that I fill out. I now use the interweb for special orders.
Welcome to Breaktime!
I do not like wood to be in direct contact with masonry, particularly for sill plates. Masonry is like a wet sponge. Old-timers knew this, and sometimes would put in a layer of slate above grade to stop the 'rising damp'. If the damp does not rise from the ground, it can still come from rain and/or condensation.
Sure, the wood may be pressure treated and all, but it still wicks up the moisture into the structure. I like PVC flashing, WR Grace membranes, or foam sill seal as isolation barriers, depending upon the application.
For this reason, I think good mechanical fasteners are the way to go over construction adhesive.
Welcome! If you really want to introduce yourself fill in your profile.
I am a small time remodeler and prefer to deal with my local folks but use the one local Lowes and larger one about 25 miles away as well as Home Depot which has two stores in that town. I agree with many that sometimes the quality is lacking in materials and help.
What most cannot or will not accept is that the price point competition and desire to have one of these big boxes 10 minutes away creates these problems. I would be nice if all of our customers cared more about quality than price but sadly this is often not the case.
Demanding so many stores exhausts the talent available at the price available to pay help and keep the overall prices down. It is a big viscous circle. My experiences have been for the most part good at both Big Boxes.
My lumber yard is a family operation and has served me well, they will bend over backwards to help me out. I tell them that if I can get it from them anywhere near (5-10-20% depending on item) the cost from big competitors I will.
Many here will classify the guys that work for HD and Lowes as ones who cannot make it out there. It is probably true for some but I do not think most by any long shot. I witness many times some employee trying to advise a customer and finally end up catching the customer after the clerk leaves and ask a clarifying question or two and offer my advice.
Was in an elect. dept not long ago and watched a lady that was adding a room get sold old work boxes and a small roll of NM that was about $5 cheaper than a 250' roll. She said her BIL was building his house and helping her. I asked her if she had drywall up yet and answer was no. Showed her nail ups and pointed out the 250 roll (said give him the leftover). This was a fairly new store and help.
About your question about plates. Tapcons should not cause spalling, you got good advice from the other posters. On an interior plate on properly poured (vapor barrier/drainage, etc) slab I would not hesitate to use quality const. adhesive backed by Tapcons and or powder act fasteners. If load bearing, code here would require bolts IIRC. If old crete, I would shy away from lower end powder types. I have bent and spalled too many.
Again welcome.
Edited 7/19/2005 6:55 pm ET by RASCONC
Hello fellow Homer!
I too have been bitten by the Orange box, and I've been a trainer for over 5 years September will start the 6th. I'm glad to hear it is going well for you. There have been alot of cutbacks lately, so there are alot of associates with resentment. I still think it is the best retail can get.
Has anyone thought about the age of the concrete affecting the bond?
Can you come and train the people at the Indepence, MO store. Specially the manager.I can give you a long list of problems at that store.I have not shopped at any of the other local stores, other than to grab and item or two, but they seem to be better.I think that classic example was that I needed something and the shelves where full of returned/damaged goods and I could not get anyone to tell me if/when/where they would have good items.Found that a friend of a friend would be at the store as vendor and although it was not in his line he used HD computer to find what I was looking for at another store and called them and had them pull it and verify that it was complete and hold it for me.
I truly am sorry to hear of problems at a store, but they are becoming more frequent. My opinion is that we are getting more and more away from the very things that made us who we are. These are the things Bernie and Arthur founded the company for. Now I feel like we are a Kmart for construction. Nobody that has been hired lately knows anyhting about the depts they work in. It seems to be more important just to have a part-time body there who can work the needed times than somebody who sees it as a career.
But on the bright side, there is a way for you to sound off to the company. It's called a HELP letter, and it is for good or bad comments that the store needs to hear of. Look for the trifold questionaire at the Special Services Desk, Pro Desk, or any sales desk. These should be stamped with the number of the store so they can be tracked.
There is also a more serious line called a Ben Hill call. If you call corporate with a heated complaint, they will call the store manager and they have <24 hours to solve the problem.
As an associate, we also have the aware line, where we can let corporate know about instore problems.
peaches... apparently you've screwed up your postings....
you're registered twice, so it looks like you are NOT responding nor even reading some of the replys to you... which is , of course..... BAD FORM
so anyways... welcome to BT.. HD sucks .. but i shop there all the time anyway...
obviously, they are sucking the lifeblood out of the lumberyards... but .. so it goes..
in the meantime.. i will continue to buy the things from HD that i can't get at my lumberyard....
and i'll never buy a window or door from you guys... since i really like getting my orders correctMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I shop at Lowe's.
I work at HD and shop at Lowe's. When I've gone to HD to get stuff, even I can't get help. HD makes it clear - when you're off the clock, you are a customer. I can't grab a ladder and get down a window or light fixture - I must find an employee.
That's irrational.
So, I just shop at Lowe's. The irony is this: I run into customers almost everytime I'm at Lowe's who I have a good relationship with at HD. People who spend thousands of dollars at HD with me, smile and laugh, "What the hell are you doing here?!!! I tell them I get better service at Lowe's.
I still see them at HD. They still finish their orders. We're still friends.
The buying public is starting to accept the irony. I can figure-out what just about anybody needs to take-on any project. I'm an amiable, experienced guy who works at HD. I'll use everything HD has to provide "excellent service" to anybody who walks-up to the ProDesk.
The irony is this: I'll provide the service HD says every customer deserves. I agree with their principles. Regardless, I'm still going to Lowe's to get the value and variety I need to do my jobs.
I think you are missing a few good points. You said it was irrational that you could not go up the ladder when off the clock. Do you think every customer in the store knows you are a Depot employee? Don't you think some customers might get the idea that it is ok to do that? I think that there are some insurance and liability issues there too. I am surprised that you have not thought of these being a former business owner.
If I were your supervisor and heard that you were telling customers that they would get better service at the competitor I would let you go work for them. I see folks from my favorite family owned yard at Lowes and they say " I am checking the competition, what are you doing here?". They are also shopping for the other 70% of the things that a small yard cannot carry.
I do not advocate a "my company right or wrong attitude" but loyalty should be the those signing your paycheck.
Edited 7/23/2005 9:59 am ET by RASCONC
Actually it's a breath of fresh air to hear of someone who workd there and knows product and its use. I find myself searching out certain personal there (and at Lowes) who I've dealt with before and who I know can help. There are a lot of monkeys there who want you to think they know whatever and all I get is a blank stare or a load of BS when I talk to them. It's like everything else, it's got the good and bad.
One thing that I wish the local HD would be better at, and this goes for most of the HD stores (not Lowes), is they put stuff in the aisles right in front of other products that you want to get to. A load of garbage, a pile of 2x4's, a display, a forklift (nobody at all around),a ladder on wheels....I would think the last two would be a law dsuit waiting to happen. This stuff usually sits there most of the day. I know they have safety rules, training seminars etc, but boy are they not followed at some of these stores.
I find myself searching out certain personal there
You're right about that. I found an old skinny guy in the hardware & fastener dept at HD who really knew his stuff. Had an old-timers attitude that probably put off some folks, but he was a great resource. I guess his attitude was something like: been there, done that ... I'm old and retired and I don't need to work here ... young punks don't give good service ... and he had a sharp tongue. But if you looked throught he facade and listened to what he had to say, it was knowledgeable.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
on the plate to concrete thing .. I love tapcons .. used to have allot of trouble .. tapcons shearing or spining, then I read the instructions, re maximum depth of penetration in the concrete. Also threw out worn bits. Haven't had a problem since. We always cut strips of asphalt shingle to set the plates on. On my own annal reno I cut a roll of roll roofing into 4" wide strips (don't try this at home), worked great!
Welcome to BT! A number of years ago (20) I worked as a Service tech. for a machine tool MFG. When installing barfeeding devices for Automated Lathes we used expansion anchors to secure the base plates to the concrete floors. When installed in a correctly sized, drilled hole, my experience has been superior results over an extended operation life. Operation conditions included 24/7 operation of machines producing intermittent shock loads of varied intensity, certainly not the static loads of most structures. I have also heard of (but not personally experienced) a technique that was supposed to be in use at a Big 3 Automobile plant to secure machines to the floor. It involved epoxying steel plates to the concrete floor and bolting the machines to the plate. This avoided all the holes in the floor when lines had to change machine locations every few years. I'm a "belt & suspenders" sort of guy and see no reason not to use both methods at the same time! I have personally used epoxy to grout base plates to a concrete floor for steel columns in a steel building I put up. This I can personally vouch for. It was NOT however, a construction adhesive and functions very well.
Stain...I recall my grandfather, who installed machinery during the 20's & 30's. No epoxy. No expansion bolts. No cut nails. Interesting way they held them down. Bored an oversized hole in the concrete floor w/ a star drill. Placed the bolt in the hole. Poured in molten sulphur. Sulphur has the interesting property that it expands as it freezes. And it stays that way for about 100yrs until it has slowly gone through a crystallline shape change & shrinks. It is also hard as concrete. Believe it or not, when you melt sulphur and freeze it, it has some subtle differences in how it reacts chemically due to the different crystal structure. Trust me on this, the Libs present would birth a cow if I told you what they are!DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Don,
There is a mfr in PA called CERRO that makes low melting point alloys that expand as they cool. Most melt between 117F and 400F. Might be what you are looking for. Drill a hole, drop the fastener in, and pour the metal.
WSJ
Well, my take on thi is that construction ahesives are great and undoubtedly will hold the bottom plate in place. I however prefer to use those lead anchors that lok like a rivet with a nail that you drive down the center. They really hold well and dont't give you cancer just make you forgetful. LOL
Welcome, don't have the time to dump on you about HD, but I will find the time to write you my take on the BOX at a later date. As far as plates on concrete (when it is not required to be held down with bolts and nuts) try this on a green slab, Use Geocel 2300 (it has unbelievable elasticity), after you have put a double bead on the plate, drill using a 1/4" masonary bit, take 2 12d HDG nail, offset the heads and drive them home. Try it you'll like it.
thats exactly what we have been doing for years... a wall on a slad really isn't going anywhere in most cases... but we use whatever constrction glue we have then drill a few 1/4 holes with the hilti hammer drill and slam a few nails in for a wedge fit.. it really can't go anywhere at this point.... it's cheap it's fast and it works... if you are working on T&M slow down and call the nails "wedge fit fasteners" if it's your dime... they are just nails...
P
Having owned a small business my self (auto Repair) for 20 years. I have had many a discussion about the "big box retailers" They have the marketing and the money behind them they make formidable competition. I have since closed the shop and taken another job. I still do the small remodeling jobs I have always done (auto repair has slow times too) I find that the "big box retailers" say the same things. "we are here for the professional" yet they are in competition with you also, they will bid on the same jobs as you do. The home improvement industry will probably go by way of the automotive repair industry and the small operator will be driven out of business unless they are extremely efficient.
Sorry I was on a rant about "the big boxers" I forgot I use tapcons and adhesive also with no problems. There is a special drill bit for the tapcons that works very well. I also use a hammer drill. Also if you remove a tapcon from a hole both the tapcon and hole can not be reused drill another hole and use another tapcon. By the way if the local yards don't have it I do go the HD and lowes too. I call the local yards FIRST.
I work in a non-HD hardware store (heh heh), and to prevent spalling I usually recommend a bottom-expanding anchor like a sleeve or wedge anchor, or a strike anchor (the ones with the nail on top). These all expand at the bottom of the hole, and have a minimum embedment depth of at least an inch and something. You can go deeper up to the length of the fastener if desired.
It's the same problem for old brick, etc. - a very dicey situation when the material is soft or brittle.