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I am thinking about expanding my shop, and input would be appreciated. The existing shop (ex-barn) has a gambrel roof. What I have in mind is a breezeway connecting this to a new structre, c. 2000 sq. ft, single story with 10-12 foot ceilings, pitched roof, on an engineered slab. One man door, one garage door. Mostly for machines and assembly, not fancy. I looked at bolt together steel buildings, but they want $20 a sq ft here, which seems like a lot. Now I am wondering about conventional framing with steel siding. I am looking for the best combination of value/efficiency in a utility building. location is Canadian East coast, so some insulation is a requirement.Any ideas?
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Adrian - I always think it would be nice if the walls could kind of roll open, like big barn doors on tracks. This thought usually comes to me in nicer weather, kind of hate being "cooped up" all winter - then the weather turns nice and I have to fight the urge for the outdoors. Putting in skylights this summer for more light.
The other thing I will try to avoid next time is the concrete floor. Very hard on tools and legs as I'm sure you've noticed.
*hey, one other thought, can you get three phase power where you are? There is a ton of three phase machinery around that most of us can't use. You can really get some good deals if you have that in your shop. yb
*AdrianIt's tough to beat the economy of 24"o.c. framing covered with steel, but do you have any corosion considerations there-by-the-sea??? ( 2x4 with f/g or cells + RFBI with strapping and steel) Fit right in with the old barn-new barn aesthetic.You could make your breezeway into a solar kiln for drying your lumber, and getting a winter tanY.B.'s right on about the cement floor, and the sliding doors (barn Hardware) but they are awful hard to insulate/weatherstrip. . .unless you made removable insulating panels. . . hey. . . why not make the whole thing outa removable insulating panels. . . a fly-away shop. . . held down at the corners with downspout chains into seismic anchors (did we already do this??) Go git the lobster, I'm on my way. . . pickin' up Jack on my way by. . . Is the Seaway open yet???
*I was thinking you could have the weatherstripping on the back side of the sliding units and some type of cam-latchs that would pull the panel in against the fixed one. If nothing else you could just use through bolts with wing nuts (worked with an old timer awhile back who walked around calling everybody "wingnut", heck of a nice guy though) since you would probably only open them up in milder whether.Adrian, one other thing, I posted it this morning but for the life of me can't find it so I don't know if you saw it - really liked your post yesterday regarding "masterpiece", I consider it history, not trivia. thanks-yb
*YB, Off subject, but you brought up a disappearing post, I thought I was the only one who had these. It kind of is irritating for a slow typer like me, you type away for 10 minutes and its gone. Adrian,I don't know if you have one near you, but 84 lumber sells pole barn kits that look pretty cheap but maybe too small.
*Gentlemen, I am making note of all your suggestions. Weatherproofing is vital here; we can get months of seemingly constant driving rain, and then you get winter storms on top of that. Corrosion doesn't seem to be as much of a problem as I expected, with a coat of paint. I would really like to have lots of skylights, windows and ventilation; I'll have to see what the budget can stand. I am thinking of a pole barn as another building, comb. kiln/lumber storage (I already have sort of a compound motif going). I have a buddy who is going to build a shop in Quebec; he is planning to put down frost walls, and then pour an ashphalt slab; figures it will be cheaper and easier on the legs than concrete.I dunno. I am thinking I'll go with concrete in the new shop, and when the machines are over there, put down a wood floor in the old shop.On the subject of disappearing posts, this has just started happening to me. I have to hit 'reload' on the browser to see it.I saw your post, YB, don't get me started, i was doing a history degree when i drifted into this stuff. Thanks for the input.
*more history then, more history cried the masses! - ybanother great thing about wood floors is you can go back under and move your floor outlets when you get that new three phase 6 foot lathe for $100.00 (U.S.) from the local high school cause they decided to turn the shop into an AQUACULTURE(?) labmore history, more history. Did Patrick say seaway? as in St Lawrence Seaway?
*I'm gonna try to get a shop up this year too. Haven't yet started to look at options, but I'm thinking pole barn with suspended wood frame floor. Gonna do greek revival exterior with clapboords, even though it won't be the cheapest. Gonna try lots of what I've picked up in the weatherization threads and a see if I can get away with minimal heating. Tons of DP cells, no penetrations, etc.Steve
*b b,f+s Y.B.That would be thei seaway. . . quickest way to get there(Adrians) from here(me) by canoe. . . can't wait for Quebec to "seperate", then I'll be able to go down the end of my road, step over the ditch and be in i Lobster land!!!I'm also having posting problems, mostly with losing edit priveleges almost immediatly. . . twice have lost access to post completely. . . read only (I know, I know, no great loss right???)
*Adrian , We built our cabinet shop about three years ago 40' x 50' w/ 10' 2x4 walls and engineered trusses on a slab floor .Framing was all #2 and #3 YP .We lathed the walls with 1x4 and the roof with 2x4 covered with commercial box rib metal screwed on with washered screws.The walls have 3 1/2'' fg and the ceiling about 10'' blown fg .drywalled and painted.It was built for about ten or eleven dollars per foot with no labor costs .That included rough wiring and rough plumbing for a toilet and a sink, one overhead door one swinging door.Its very easy to heat (NE Oklahoma fairly mild winters )The slab is pretty hard on legs and feet. Hope this helps . Chuck
*Walked on a slab for ten years. No permanent damage, but it was hard on the knees, and chins. If I were to build a shop, which I swear I am not going to do, I would try and find a barn with a drive in second floor made of wood that probably stored hay. Storage underneath, and easy to place utilities. I suppose the high ceiling would be hard to heat, but I would go with radiant heat from above. Any chance you can do some of this? You only get one body, and it doesn't hurt to baby it a bit. Dennis
*For the past twenty or so plus years, my buildings have always had 3 phase power. Great stuff except for the 208 two wire and the occasional need for a buck and boost. Dennis
*AdrianPardon the query but I can't understand why you would want to go thei pole barnroute when you intend to insulate and finish. . . you'll end up having to frame anyway. . .read Fred's thread acouple of months back about his i boat houseproject, and all the re-framing needed to make it stable,(no pun intended) energy efficient, and finish-able. Having also done some similar jobs with both an old barn & an old cheese factory being turned into living space, I can attest to the multitude of re-working necessary. . . far more than a new set of walls would have entailed!!!. . . but when you have the option, and aren't trying to preserve an historic exterior. . . ???
*Patrick - you make a good point but I can see how it might be doable in stages using the pole building now, finishing as budget allows. Kind of like paying interest on borrowed money, you know it will cost more overall, but you get to use it sooner. - yb
*Miscommunication, gents. The pole barn (or something similar) would be a separate building,not fancy, used only for lumber and maybe a dessicating kiln, but anyway its's not the first priority and the intent there is to get around zoning laws that limit me to a certain sq ftootage, which I am going to interpret as per building (I already have a couple of small outbuidings, hence my 'compound'). Dennis, a slab is a neccessity in at least part of the new section for the machines, but as I said in a post above, I want to put a wood floor in the old part. I put a new service in when I renovated it, and I probably should have gone with forty foot poles for three phase,but a phase converter will be able to handle my needs when I get there.
*I built my shop with 2x6's 24" o.c. with cells insulation and 2" foam around the slab edges. I buried some insulated pipe from the house (35 ft.)and tied it into the house boiler for baseboard heat. Nice and comfey. I use a window A/C thru the wall in the summer.
*Adrian,If you're really stuck on a slab-on-grade then you might better off to avoid the engineered slab route and stick to something the average foundation contractor does daily, that is frost wall/slab combo. I'd insulate the exterior face of the frost walls with 2" Type-2 from sill plate to footing and the perimeter of the slab to at least a 4 ft. width. I'm not sure the payback is there to warrant insulating the whole slab. For the walls, 2x4 at 24" with cellulose and drywall is the way I'd go. You can sheath it with anything available and unless you want to distinguish it from the house and barn why not go with rough-sawn board and batten siding. I know you don't like it but maybe the stuff on the house is not detailed properly. Surely there's somebody out there who can offer a detailed explanation of the proper weather-proof method. I believe it can be done using a rain-screen principal but I defer to the knowledgable experts in FHBland. For the roof I think the best value is a manufactured truss at 24" centred on the studs(this way you can use a single top plate if you want and don't need load bearing headers above the windows if you keep them 22" wide). If you want to store stuff up in the cavity or hang something from the bottom chord, the extra loads can be designed into the truss to eliminate guesswork.IMHO an insulated steel overhead garage door is your best bet for a big door. A shop-made wood sliding door, while pretty in a rustic way, is hard to keep tight.The last thing is siting. You mentioned the requirement for lots of windows.....placed properly they will allow that insulated slab (painted a nice dark colour) to store a lot of energy. With the low heating load of a well built structure oriented to take advantage of the sun, electric heat is probably your most economical option. waiting-in-vain-for-natural-gasGerry
*Gerry? Gerry! (Gerry is the guy who christened my compound a compound) It's not that I'm stuck on a structural slab (though that is best for the machines), but the two carpenters I know best here both suggested it as something the local guys can do well, and most importantly, Metro Planning will okay it pretty easily. But I am going to start costing it out slab vs framed floor system. You are right, I don't like the board and batten much at all, if i can afford it the battens are coming off the house and will be replaced with shingles, but again, I'm going to cost that against the steel. Nothing is written in stone yet.(gotta go draft this up on my new TurboCAD v6. Came in this aft, Gerry, looks pretty nifty)