I’m working on an article about working with fiber cement siding, probably focussing on dealing with the dust issues. Got any opinions, techniques, or tools you want to talk about for this? Anyone using those shrouded saws that popped up recently? Skil saws with diamond blades? Those blades they sell in lumber yards with just a few teeth? Nippers? Snap shears? What do you use? How about drilling that stuff with …what, hole saws? Dust issue there?
Thanks for any information or ideas. – Jim
Replies
Jim,
At our Habitat for Humanity site we use Hardie Plank. I had Makita donate one of those new shrouded saws. They still create alot of dust. Perhaps if it was hooked up to a vacuum it would be much better, but it's mobility would be limited. We have since switched to the shears and have both the Porter Cable and Snapper. The snapper's main shaft broke once but it was repaired. Both do excellent work. The saw sits on the shelf.
In Peace and Partnership,
Martin
you're kidding , right ?
the ONLY way you can use the makita FC saw is if it's hooked up to a vacumn.. preferably one with an auto -on switch , like the Fein..
once you do, your dust problems are g..o...n....e.......Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
AND the stock blade with this saw is great at cutting plywood with very little splintering.
martin.. send me the saw and i'll make a donation to your habitat group.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, you already have a saw. Let him send it to me and I'll make the donation.
Jim,
Just finished my first FC job, 1025sf. Used a diamond blade in an old sidewinder. Cloud of dust and a Hi Ho Silver. The breeze blew most of the dust away and I can hold my breath long enough to make all but the full board length rip cuts. Actually, from all the posts here about the dust I was expecting to be engulfed as if I were cutting through a block wall. Didn't happen (except for those rip cuts, thankfully few).
I'll expect the article to describe the cut accomplished with a number of different blades. (Unless everyone just feels like giving that description right here - I'll start). The diamond blade appears to just abrade its way through the FC, not cleanly cutting the fibers as you see when cutting wood. Cutting from either the face or the back of the board left the same fuzzy edge on BOTH sides so the face needed a touching up swipe with a sharp utility knife. Makes all the difference in how your caulking job looks. The time spent cleaning up the edge was not a big deal, especially since I didn't have to buy anything to get the job done.
I use a skill saw with a diamond blade and a large fan blowing from behind me. For holes I use a hammer drill with a small bit to drill a series of holes around the larger hole or trim piece, then I clean it out with a hammer and chisel. Hole saws saber saws and roto zips just don't work with fiber cement.
I've only done one house with Hardieplank (7.25" wide).
I disagree about the Rotozip not working...I finished all circ saws corner cutouts and holes with a 1/8" carbide bit in a Rotozip. Snapped a couple of bits after much usage, I should have used the 1/4" carbide. If you were trying a Rotozip with a regular drywall or wood bit, sure, it'd be about as useful as a wooden-toothed saw. The bit will glow a real nice orange before it snaps, though... :-)
Used a carbide 6-tooth circ saw blade (made for fiber cement, don't remember brand, it wasn't one known to me) and a dustmask. I found that the few teeth didn't really create too much dust as it chewed it off in fairly large chunks (but still left a clean cutline). As an aside, the Makita blades are 22 tooth - wonder if they create more/finer dust? Blew a tooth on the blade about 3/4 of the way thru a 1450 sq. foot bungalow. Just about nobody here in Canada sells the saw blades, so I had to finish up with a Vermont American continuous rim "turbo" blade, the kind more often used for cutting concrete, etc. Created fine dust that was everywhere, but fortunately working outside in the bush, it didn't create too many problems.
Couldn't justify spending money on the shears for the one project.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Jim - Makita makes two shrouded saws specifically designed to cut FC. The baby 4" one is inherently light and easy to manuever. I hooked it up to my shop vac with a 10' hose. Plenty of flexibility when on the ground but a little cumbersome at the upper levels. As Mike Smith said, this is essentially dustless. I'm cutting with a 4" DW diamond blade because the original Makita blade didn't last too long.
Although shears are the winner when it comes to dust free cutting, you definitely cannot cut the Cemplank beaded smooth select (no longer manufactured) with shears, specifically the PC shears but probably others as well. The bead is too pronounced (looks great) for the shears to make a clean cut. The current beaded FC which has a formed bead, may cut well with shears.
Eric S.
Did my house in Hardiplank last summer. 8 1/4" lap (7" exposure), just over 26 squares.
I intended to use a circ saw for the rips and shears for crosscuts.
I tried a Dewalt hardi-blade in a circular saw. I used if for a about 2 cuts and said enough of that. It was like having my arms sandblasted. Kicked up a storm of dust. Blade wanted to wander all over. That majorly sucked.
I did 99 % of my cuts, including full rips (12') with a Porter Cable 6602 shears. What an awesome tool. Quick and accurate. Was able to maneuver through curves easily. One side of the jaws (inner one is reversible) lasted the whole job. Made very little dust. The dust wasn't noticeable during each cut. At the end of the job, I noticed some dust lying around my cutting station, but not much. It does leave behind "tails" from the offcuts... about 1/4" wide kerfs that curl up out of the shears' jaws as they work. But these were easy to deal with. They were heavy enough not to blow around in the wind, so clean up could easily wait until the end of the day, and they scooped right into a dustpan.
I did a little cutting with a Bosch abrasive blade in a jigsaw. I used this to clean up the corners anytime I notched out a plank (to fit over/under windows etc.) It was accurate, but slow. Generated some dust, but since these weren't very big cuts, don't know that it was much of an issue. Wouldn't recommend this for anything but trimming up pieces cut with the shears because of the speed.
I did a couple of outlet box cutouts with a rotary tool (Rotozip, etc). Burned up a couple bits this way and it was awful dusty. I think a better plan would be to plan this protrusions to be at a butt joint between two planks so that each plank (or one) could be notched.
Hope this was helpful.
I've done several houses with both Certainteed and Hardie...did the first ( small house) with a wornout #### blade. LOTS of dust and a lousy way to cut the stuff.
(Holy Smoke....Matsosh!ta got censored by Prospero!!!)
Then went to a "plank cutter" diamond blade...made lots of dust, but the cut was so much easier that, when the plank cutter was getting tired, sprung for a good masonry diamond blade. The life was longer, but the dust was still an issue. (And cutting with a circ saw, regardless of the blade type, tends to be pretty noisy).
Never invested in the Makita/vacuum set-up Mike Smith uses, but considered it and I certainly don't dispute his success with it.
Went for the shears instead. And I swear by 'em, but there is a brief learning curve: Cutting too fast, or crowding the shears into the cut will cause the rolled edge someone mentioned and, if making a long cut, a little softer touch on the variable speed trigger along with a steady feed speed, will produce a nice, straight cut.
Always mark and cut from the back; the surface is easier to mark out and any rough cutting edge will end up on the back of the board.
If the board is damp, it's softer and the cut (with shears) will often be a little fuzzy...best if the boards can be kept dry, although that's hard to do sometimes in wet climates.
I use a carbide blade in a PC jigsaw for cutting out circles, cleaning corners or making detailed cuts like where the plank is being scribed to intricate trimwork.
I use titanium drill bits for small holes....they stay sharp for a lot of holes.
Holesaws are OK, but they tend to dull pretty fast.
Usually keep a pair of dikes handy for cleaning corners or touching up edges.
For a cutting table, I've hung on to a 12' scrap of 14" Versa-Rim which usually supports the plank on a set of horses, although I've also set it up across the handrails of a boomlift basket when doing a lot of high work.
Dust isn't really a problem, and I pick up most of the curlicues from the shears and till them into the garden.
Edited 5/11/2003 2:01:24 AM ET by Notchman
Another vote for shears.I bought a Kett 442 shear. The main reason I bought the Kett was because it has interchangeable shear heads for metal or fiber cement. The fiber-cement can cut up to 1/2" Hardi-backer (goodbye, Wonderboard!) and does a great job on Hardi-plank. The metal cutting head does a fantastic job on up to 16 gauge metal, and also cuts stucco wire. I feel that this is one of the best tools I have purchased in a long time. Just the shear pleasure of cutting stucco wire in 1/4 the time without getting your hands all cut up made the purchase worth it. Matter of fact, I would bet the tool paid for itself after 1 day of putting up 850 sf of wire. Makes doing metal ductwork a lot more fun too. I would definitely recommend anyone buying a pair of shears to stick with variable speed, also.
One thing I learned about cutting siding with it... when making a long angled cut, like against a roof, I always try to cut so that the end of the cut will be under the next piece of siding... the last little part at the tip of the angle likes to break off.
To answer your question, I use Snapper shears, and I bought 'em when they were 350 beans. Just straight cutters. No dust.
Now, you're writin' an article about installing cementicious siding and you're asking what folks really cut it with? Dang, I'm no pro at this, done 2 houses, one Hardie, one Chemplank (that stuff sucks IMO). How many jobs and different brands have you actually worked with? I really think this siding is the cat's rear end, and, I am sure there are some tricks to installing it, just want to get some credentials. I might need to use this info, and realizing it was a crock afterwards isn't going to appease my clients just because I read it in FHB...
th EliphIno!
A little off the beaten path, one project I was on using F.C., we had debate on the type nails, ie air gun shooting 8's, roofing nailer, or hand nailing. We ended up using 2" gal. roofing nails ., hand nailed. Then the other debate was-blind nail, or blind nail with face nail compliment. This project is/was in a high wind area,factory rep. says blind nails ok, though walls will humm in wind. We ended up face nailing the back and sides of the house. Street side we only blind nailed .
we sided our first house with the shears. we started the second with my partner's new makita hooked up to a fein vac. i just bought the 12 volt makita 3 3/8 with carbide blade and i like it best. at only 1000 rpm it does not kick up dust. the small diameter blade cuts into corners close enough to clean up nicely with a knife,( i use a snap blade razor). got the tip from a fellow at our lumber yard. the typical house he has done requires 2 blades start to finish, he uses the 9.6 volt makita but i found the 12 volt for 89.00 on ebay. i already have the 12 volt batteries for my impact driver(what a drill).
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I like the shears as well. But I have to say, if I were doing a lot of it I would definately consider investing in the circular saws. That siding is here to stay.
Thanks again.
Jim,
I assume that the saws are a whole lot better for crosscutting, and for making a production setup for ripping, though I have not used the shears to compare.
I bought the Hitachi saw as part of a package when I bought the excellent cement coated Hitachi nails. The saw came with a dust bag, diamond blade and a few different attachments. It did not come with a rip fence but the one off my useless Makita sidewinder fit, so at least I got about $10 worth of use out of that piece of junk, but that's beside the point.
The guys on my first job hated that saw. In order to get the dust controlled, you have to adjust a "clear" guard with a phillips screwdriver just about right down to the saw's table. The problem with that is you can no longer see the blade. They used and abused my Sawbuck with a carbide blade for a while instead but that is a lot slower, both in cutting and in loading it.
I didn't have as much of a problem with the Hitachi, and kind of like it. I can solve the problem either by leaning over and looking at the blade, since I'm kind of a tall geek, or slightly raising the dust chute guard thing and getting a thin look at it from the other side. But remember, I'm like you and find the blade is on the wrong side of the saw to begin with. Maybe the best way to use it is to become left-handed, which wouldn't be that difficult because the saw cuts REALLY nicely through the stuff, especially if you can mark the backside and cut it from there.
The problem with cutting the backside is that you scratch the good side's stain. No problem if it's not prestained, big problem if it is. So, cut from the front. Guess what? The saw itself scratches the stain. Not good! this completely kills the advantage of using and remember, paying 25% extra for, the prestained finish.
Back to the saw. The dust collection does work well. It's not 100% but with just the bag, I'd say about 80-90% of it ends up in the bag, which you will empty quite often.
I can't imagine the shears cut fast or straight enough to outdo a skilsaw. I can measure, mark and cut a perfect right angle (or perfect enough...) in seconds. If the main idea is just to control dust, great. But if you're cutting out on a jobsite, it's no big deal with the amount of dust the saw makes in order to speed up production.
I have not tried hooking up a vacuum but I guess Mike Smith recommends it. I keep the saw mobile, and do my cutting on the Alumapoles where I''m working. We pass up as many pieces as we think the thing can safely hold with two men on it, and do everything up high. I would not want a vacuum to add to the list of stuff up there to knock down. One of my crew members dropped the saw and the nailgun within 5 minutes. Broke the gun, put it through a window screen, and the saw hit hard but was fine. I wouldn't want to give him a shot at a hat trick with the vacuum up there!
But the dust is bad when cutting other ways, and they threw a hellstorm of it when using the sawbuck, and the jigsaw. I got to the point where I didn't really need a jigsaw for much but used a framing chisel to make most of the odd cuts around windows, door trim etc. Just draw and whack. You get to the point where you don't split it much. Dust factor minimal too.
What else you want to know?
Dog
Jim,
I just completed my house in the Seabeck, WA area using 6 1/4" siding with a 5" reveal, I used a Skil 77 wormdrive with a blade designed for the Hardiplank. I found that if the material was a little wet (NOT a problem this time of year as you know) that the dust was next to nothing and you just have to be a little more careful when handling the long boards as they have more flex when wet.
They are right about cutting with a standard hole saw, the bits only last a couple of holes than they need to be resharpened. I did see a diamond coated saw blade for a reciprocating saw that looked like it would do a great job for some of your trim work, but I was almost done and could not justify the extra cost for the little trim work I had left.
I attached a couple of pictures to show what the end result was.
Jason
If it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have Any!
jason.. any closeups of the trim details..
what are those things on the horizon? we ain't got nothing that looks like those in RIMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Doh, goes to show ya why reading comprehension insn't part of the carpentry test here...thanks for not pointing out my attention deficet.
'nother dust problem is cutting the trim boards, corners, windows, doors, fascia. Shears won't cut 1" stuff. We used cheap carbide blades and a box fan, unless there was a heavy prevailing wind...developing pearl diver's breath holding skills is another desireable option for the cut man... EliphIno!
1. What’s in cement that can be harmful?
Different cements have different ingredients. Many of them contain substances that can be hazardous, like silica, lime, gypsum, nickel, cobalt, and chromium compounds. 2. What illnesses can you get if you breathe too much cement dust?
Chronic bronchitis.
Silicosis— from the crystalline silica (quartz) used in many cements.
Cancer— from the small amounts of chromium compounds found in some cements. (Scientists are still debating whether the silica in cement dust may also cause cancer.)
3. What are the symptoms of silicosis?
Acute silicosis can occur after a few weeks of very high exposure (for example, in sandblasters). Symptoms are shortness of breath, coughing, fever, and weight loss.
Chronic silicosis is rarely seen in workers with less than ten years of exposure. It permanently damages your lungs.
Silicosis also increases your chance of getting tuberculosis.
4. Is it dangerous if you get cement dust or wet cement on your skin?
Yes. Getting cement dust or wet cement on your skin can cause burns, rashes, and other kinds of skin irritation. Lime, found in most cements, is often the cause.
Some workers slowly become allergic to cement if they have skin contact with it over a long period of time.
Cement dust and wet cement can also irritate your eyes.
From: Cement & Concrete Training Guide http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/elcosh/docs/d0200/d000254/d000254.html
Hey folks, dust masks are cheap!!!
Mike,
This is the only, other picture I have, if you would like a specific detail I can see what I can do. By the way the big things in the back ground are called mountains, I am originally from Mass. and I thought the hills back home were mountains until I got to see some real mountains. I added a picture of my view from my bedroom.
Jason
sorry about the size of the photo. jwIf it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have Any!
thanks... that's what i wanted to see.. the casing details... cool
mountains , huh ... well i never...
highest point in RI used to be Diamond Hill... about 700 '
the Johnston Landfill passed it a couple of years ago..
mountains......i'm gonna put that in my notebookMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
" 12 volt makita 3 3/8 with carbide blade "
what tool is it? A circular saw? And 3 3/8 refers to the diameter of the saw blade?
It looks like this:
View Image
Amazon has it for $119, other more powerful battery versions for $189-$219Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
shears can be had for about the same price and are absolutely dustless...
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WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
As Imerc said, the shears are the best. Check out Ebay, there are usually some on there and usually sell for about $150 from people who bought them for one house then.. If your going to do the same, you could probably get the $150 back reselling them so you would basically pay the shipping charge as your rental fee for how ever long you use them.
The main shear companies are snapper shears by pacific tool, porter cable has a set of shears under their name and Kett also makes a pair. I have the snapper and they work great. Snapper makes a number of different types of shears for different cutting tasks, so make sure they are the right ones. The siding shears are the SS404 http://www.pactool.us/snappershear/
Have any of you guys used a small circular saw that has the water system attached to it? You know , the type that the stone and tile guys use. I have also seen my mable/granite guy use a skill saw with a diamond blade attached and a normal sponge pushed up against the side of the blade and letting the water cool of the blade ... I have seen them do long rips this way. They said that they have done it for years and never had a shock (yet). I still have not tried the sponge method... too chicken
When I was in Brazil last year the guys working on the house we stayed at were cutting bricks and roof tile with a makita saw hooked up to a waterline. It was the only power tool they had, and could afford. I thought it seemed a little hazardous, but the lack of OSHA or any real government watchdog may or may not have had much to do with it!
Down there it seems like everyone for themselves,
Dog
Another vote for the P-C shears.
Besides, they work great on Hardibacker for tile installation, too.
DRC