I am bidding building replacements for some bracket and truss work for this train station in Winona, MN.
Thoughts anyone?
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That looks like some fun work! I love that stuff!
Are the brackets load-bearing? Or just decorative?
--"Are the brackets load-bearing? Or just decorative?"Both--I would say. I hope I get this job.
That looks like a lot of fun! What's the size of lumber. How big are the brackets? What kind of wood? Are you going to use mortise and tenon or mechanical fasteners? How many are there? I'm making some brackets for a small remodel in Trempealeau Wi. Pretty simple and small compared to yours. Good luck!
The lumber is roughly similar to 4x stock. I don't know the species yet. I plan to use the same joinery as the original. I would like to install some temp bracing and take an original bracket back to my shop to replicate.I'll get some more info on the project next week. Trempeleau is a nice town.
--"How big are the brackets?"I measured the brackets today. They are 80" tall and support a roof overhang of 7' They are a full 4" thick and are laminated in layers of 3/4", 2-1/2", and 3/4".
How about some dimensions & detail pics for those of us who might like to copy/recreate it?
I will follow up with more details and pics. It is a unique building. Good to know others are interested in it.
I just posted some details to groovedude...they are huge (7' span). I think I will suggest replicating them in White Oak (best combination of decay resistance, strength and price).I estimate that each bracket will use about 35 board feet of oak at around 4.2 lbs. per b.f. the brackets will weight about 150 lbs.Here is a close up pic:
Why oak ?? Is that the species of the existing ?
Looks like a great project although I would prefer to substitute a lighter and more weather resistant wood if possible.
I know white oak is great outdoors but cutting , shaping and milling it is a b-tch , not to mention lifting and installing 150 lbs.
Anyway ,looks like fun, the type of projects we all wish we could do all the time.
White oak is among the most decay resistant of woods it ranks with heart redwood and cedar, but neither of those woods would be strong enough, it seems to me--7' overhang roof, wind and snow loads.I suspect these brackets are old growth CVG heartwood of white pine...not something I could get.White oak would be tough to work, maybe I will see if I can get Catalpa at a local mill.
Edited 10/20/2007 8:52 am ET by basswood
Thanks! Any idea of what pitch the roof is? ~4/12? Higher?
What would you use to laminate them? Waterproof glue for sure but which one?
Edited 10/20/2007 1:36 pm ET by john7g
The lower roof section with the brackets is 6/12, I would guess. The upper roof looks like 12/12 or steeper.I think Titebond 3 would be a good glue for this.
Basswood,Those corbels will have some serious loads on them. You do know that Titebond III creeps under load, right? It'll work okay if you have joinery or hardware to transfer the major loads. I built a torsion box assembly table with TB III just a few years ago and it has sagged due to creep. Bill
Bill,I had not heard about "Loaded Creeping" with TB III.Poly glue then?
Basswood,Polyurethane might work, it does not creep under load like PVA's do, but it is not as strong from what I've experienced and read. Resorcinol is the gold standard, but it requires thin gluelines and heavy clamping to do its best.Epoxy is not recommended for structural bonding on dense woods like white oak. This I learned from the Gougeon Brothers in one of their magazines.Bill
Good to know, thanks.
From where I sit, I'd think about the split ring or a derivitive of that for shear loading, and PL Premium for any gappage fill/adhesion property. Bury a short hex or carriage bolt and plug.
BTW a 3/4" Counter bore will handle a S.A.E. Washer that can be had in 3/8ths I.D> Grind the out side of a 9/16" socket to fit in a 3/4" hole to tighten the nuds. Then a 3/4" plug hides all that.
I have a 3/4" tenon cutter so that is what I settled on for a job once that was all bolted and plugged.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
In this case, I think the two joints with the rosettes are the bolted shear points and the whole 2-1/2" rosette is the plug, so the bolt heads and washers can be rather wide.Did you check out all the joinery on the bridge connection link? Kinda cool. Thanks.
That is indeed a very cool site. Well, if you don't get the job, you at least got to dream about how to do it.
Yep. Nice to have a job that you would do for free...if you didn't need to make $$$.I enjoy the well crafted architecture of old. Last weekend I noticed that the soffit boards on my 1850's home are all mitered in the corners...nice.Now I need to get back up to Zumbrota, MN and get a better look at the covered bridge there. I think it has been "remuddled" though.Today I will try to get a pic of a little Victorian boathouse with a concave curved roof (in Fountain City, WI). Gotta go shopping for a customer now (over the top stair rail parts), that's fun too. Then back to reality (sanding and recoating drywall) and taking a kid to the orthodontist, Oh boy! cheers!
Yeah, sweet site, I saved it in favs.
I wanna find and xcuse to do the lightning bolt scarf..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Lightning Bolt Scarf is sick...just sick. ;o)I took a few more pics of different Victorian corbels today, if I can find that old corbel thread I'll post 'em there.
Basswood,
slightly off topic---what is the current/intended use of the actual building?
I have seen several of these train depots turned into pretty nice yuppie eateries and i am wondering if yours is destined for the same?
stephen
This one is still a functioning Amtrack station (and ridership is rising) owned by Canadian Pacific, rumor has it that it may be sold to the City of Winona though (transportation office & hub).The busy train tracks might be compatible with dining? The building is 40'x150' so it could do multiple things.
thanks for the reply.
the ones i have seen--active train tracks were viewed as a PLUS--- tables near windows overlooking the tracks were desirable-----went(obviously) with a train motief---really a fun casual dining experience.
stephen
The train motif would work. Winona has some great rail history they could offer up for tourists. It was a hub for five train lines in the late 1800's and is the site of the second train bridge accross the Mississippi (after the transcontinental railroad).The first train ride out of Winona was in 1862 and ran right by my house (Winona and St. Peter Railroad--Now DM&E).I just rescued some old rails from the 1800's that the flood here tore out...maybe I can sell 'em on Ebay. <G>
One time I really wish you posted a bigger picture! Wow that will be fun! keep posting, many good ideas there.
m
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I'll see if I can get a few good pics in larger sizes...lots of detail. Did you notice the flare in the siding?
Yeah I like that and the contrasting paint on the panels under the flair and the way the corbles run back wher they turn to column heads around the corner. Band saw on casters maybe? I have one set up like that for wrestling with big stock.I look forward to seeing more images on this. Michael
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Looks like a really good project.
Hope you get the work.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
hey... those were some of the corbels i used to help design the one for Quarterdeck
View Image
you must have posted that same pic....course mine ended up no where's near as nice , curved & detailed as those
View Image
my guess is large jigs and routers are going to play a large part
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 10/19/2007 6:36 am ET by MikeSmith
Mike - is it just the way the pic is, or does that wall actually lean out? And BTW - what is Quarterdeck? Sounds like a bar or something.
matt.... Quarterdeck was our last project..
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=83035.1
we had a discussion there about corbel bracket designs and the pic basswood showed was one fo the pics i used to design the bracketMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I did post that pic before. I have long admired that train station and I was pleased to be asked to look at the bracket project yesterday.I think Piffin posted a pic of a very similar bracket too.You did a nice job with the proportions on your bracket...I might return the favor and borrow from your design.
I'd definitely like to see any progress pics that you were willing to post. Especially stuff that showed how you cut the pieces and fit them together.
Bumpersticker: Thank you for not breeding.
If I get the job, I will post pics of the whole process.
Here is a better photo of a bracket in good shape and a pic of one of the brackets in need of replacement:
I bet you could get a rosette knife ground to match the profile you need.http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/orderstatus/html/smarthtml/pages/rosette.htmhttp://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4979BTW it looks to me that the rosettes are caps to concelle openings for tightening nuts that secure the bracketts to long bolts.
Thanks for the rosette knife links.I wondered if the rosettes were caps too...since they appeared to rot out faster than the surrounding wood...or maybe a rosette fell out.
I used a beading bit in a plunge router in a concentric circle jig I made with a bandsaw to make the rosettes.
DW says to tell you she is SOOOOO impressed - they're really beautiful.
Forrest
Tell your DW thank you.I learned a bunch on this one.
Forrest,The brackets are waiting for a ride at the train station (on the scissors lift).Here is a pic of a smaller version of the bracket too (with a shorter top chord and one less brace). This would be a more practical version for most applications:
Brian
That must have been hell cutting a exact circle with your bandsaw and then trying to secure the circles so as to make your rosettes.
If I may, why don't you take your piece of mdf and swing the circle in that - with your router? I cut a scrap of wood/ply about 4" wide and how ever long I'm going to need, drill a 1" hole at one end and mount my router centered over that hole, doesnt have to be exact. Then measure back from my router bit(here you have to do some thinking, do I want the circle from the inside of my router bit cut, outside of my router bit cut- think about what you expect to get out of the cut to know which side of the router bit to measure from), drill a pilot hole and there is your radius. Now put a sheet rock screw(yea, its ok to use sr screws for this application) through that pilot hole and swing your arch, or in your case, make a complete circle.
You don't need to change your router for each circle, just change your radius point. Move the arm/router over and make another circle.
You'll get more precise circles this way.
Other wise a creative way to cut the rosettes without having to go out and buy a cutter that you may or may not ever use. Somehow we gotta maximize profit!
Doug
Doug,I should post pics on cutting perfect concentric circular jigs with a bandsaw...it was very easy.I won't try to describe it without pictures. I have a circle cutting jig base plate for my router, but it is for large radii and would have been cumbersome for those small circles.I just tacked the circular jig I made and the concentric rings in place with a 23ga pinner. I was surprised how well it worked.Woodcraft and Rockler sell small circle jigs for about $30. I didn't want to spend any more $ on tools for this job.If I made a home made jig for a 1" radius, I wondered how I could attach it to the center point...that radius is so small it is under the router base.
Edited 4/3/2008 8:01 am ET by basswood
View Image
Brian
I'd change this one for sure!
Looks like a cool job if you can get it. You better clean up some of that shop area though if your going to do a job of this size. You had your chance when that flood went through. :)
Also I'd opt for getting the rosette cutters made, why bother with some half-azzed homemade cutter when you'll need to be able to produce these things with some production/quality time in mind.
How many of these things need to be replace/rebuilt?
I think the white oak is a good choice, obviously nice heartwood redwood would be my choice for lifting but you probably cant budget it in and the strength of the wood is an issue here.
Good luck, hope you get the gig.
Doug
Doug,I recently did some cabinet and bookcase projects...so I cleared out about a 1000 sq. ft. and got the shop halfway organized.Only two of the brackets need to be replaced. The two on the end that are the most exposed.Professionally ground knives sounds like a good plan.I figure the material will run about $250 per bracket in White Oak, with Redwood 2-3x's the price of Oak.I would also have to charge about $250 per bracket for lift rental.How long do you think it would take you to build and install a couple of those brackets? I'm thinking about 3 days in the shop building them and a day for prime & paint and another day to deliver and install. Five days total.Canadian Pacific Railroad owns the building...looks like they have about 1.5 billion tied up in the DM&E purchase...so I wonder if they are willing to spend $1700 or so per bracket?BTW the first DM&E train, since the flood, rolled by this week.Things are slowly getting back to normal. Thanks,Brian
Brian
I think your time guesstamate is reasonable.
I have to re think my opinion on the cutters though, if your only going to do a few maybe you could get a local turner to do those on a lathe, that is if they are an insert. Might be as cheap unless you think you'd use the cutters somewhere down the road. Gotta make sense economically ya know.
If they have 1.5 bill for a railroad then they should be able to come up with a few measly thousand for some much needed work on a fine building.
If they don't go for it go out and tear some of that bridge out that they just built and see if a few derailments don't change their minds!
Doug
Edited 10/20/2007 10:25 pm ET by DougU
Brian
Any idea of how the original pieces were joined together? Tenons on the 2.5"t pieces? Timber Frame tricks?
Did you ever see rings that were used in the old bridge connections? Basically a holesaw kerf in a joint ( both mating faces), then a steel donut or pipe cut off is slipped in before it is thru bolted or what have you..it is for shear loads on seriously loaded joints.
Pretty cool, If I could remember the exact terminolgy, I'll post a link.
I saw it in " Wood Engineering and Construction Standards" a text book I have floating around here somewhere.
I was looking the pics and thinking that that may be what is used there .Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Split ring connector.
Edited 10/22/2007 8:02 pm by splintergroupie
Thank ye darlin'
I knew I wasn't dreaming.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I knew all those years of collidge would eventually pay off. <G>
Had to clean the dust off of that memory but, yes, I do know what you're talking about.
Here is a link that gets into wooden bridge connections...it doesn't have the split ring, but it seems like a good resource:http://www.tfhrc.gov/structur/pubs/04098/14.htmI'm learning lotta stuff already.
The only way I will know how they were joined will be if I get the job and get to take an original bracket apart. Man--I hope I get this job!Then again, it could take twice as long as I think...so I might reconsider. 8>{I have done very little traditional joinery, but would like to learn more.
I think three days cutting is pretty ambitious. Easily one day just to lay everything out and prep your material.One day to cut/fine tune major joinery.One day to route/sand/layout all those decorative lambs tongue/stopped chamfer details. This part especially will be easy to underestimate. Maybe another day for final assembly.I wouldn't think that one person could have completed (except for paint) corbels in three days...no way. But I suppose it depends on how much joinery you go with.
I often get asked to do things I have never done before...and sometimes I get clobbered by how long it takes.You could easily be right about this.Thanks,BW
What great detailing! My wife/architect is designing a project with corbels right now, "Airplane Craftsman style," and she came in and looked over my shoulder and said "can you e-mail those images to me?" Plans are due Tuesday morning at nine AM and she is offering to draw on Sunday afternoon if I'll take my kid on an adventure somewhere.Heres a simple corbel I just put on my music studio so I won't have to worry about hitting posts when I pull the van in after a gig.I can't get the files to upload right. Maybe I'll get it in the morning.I get to build a chicken coop at my daughters school tomorrow morning, should be fun.------------------Okay, here's that image of a simple corbel made out of 2x4's and 2x6's I was trying to share earlier. I'm getting pretty inspired by that corbel in the background of that first image that has up-slope braces off a post that mimic the downslope corbel. I'm thinking I can adapt that idea to a front porch instead of a header with a king post under the ridge. Chicken coop went great yesterday, There is a new dad in my kids class who is a good solid builder/tile guy and we side stepped the committee and knocked the coop together with his son and my daughter and wife helping out. It's nice to get the volunteer points on something that doesn't involve committee meetings or consensus and has a good beginning and end and something solid to show at the end of the day. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
How did the "Airplane Craftsman" design turn out?I found out today that I have landed the "Corbel Crafting" job for the train station. I hope to retrieve the old brackets in another couple of weeks.The post-mortem phase will be interesting.
The design is complete and the specs, quote, preliminary selections and 1/8" scale model are with the client. I'm now waiting on final client selections and a signed construction contract. Need it desperately as our current job wraps up on December 7th per schedule. I've already started to pull permits assuming they can get financing and roll with it quickly. Knock on wood. I'll post some PDF's of the drawings wish us luck.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
You do know how to meake a template follower for the bandsaw I hope, simple finger?
They'd be a fun project to re-create, either machine or by hand.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I don't even own a band saw...this could be just the excuse I've been looking for.Template follower? Tell me more, if you have time.
You NEED a bandsaw..LOL A 14" Rigid is plenty and no too pricey.
Ok, a template guide can be made with say a 1/4" x 1 1/2" wide by 8-10 inches long of any hardwood or plywood.
Fully radius (just round ended) one end...in the center area of that end make ye a notch as wide as your blade and just smidge or two deeper than the thickness of your blade.
When you clamp this to the BS table, the blade is buried in the notch, and the outer edges of the rounded end are FLUSH or a bit proud of the blades teeth.
When you tack a template of the SAME or greater thickness UNDER your stock, the template rides around the end of the stick, and the blade flush cuts off the overhanging stock( waste), to produce an exact copy...
Maybe I can sketch it in paint and attach a view.
Here ya go..no phallic jokes.
View ImageSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
sphere, I understand the concept and the drawing but doesn't that require a very closely cut rough stock? I mean where does the waste go, because it doesn't look to me as if it could pass the block ? They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edited 10/19/2007 9:36 pm by dovetail97128
The block runs like a router bearing on a plywood template screwed to the bottom of your stock. M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Shelternerd,
So the actual stock then rides above the block as drawn? That I can see . Thanks.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Still a good idea to rough cut it pretty close so you can see to steer even if your using a 1/2" band.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Very nice technique...thanks.Say, how do you add a breaded rosette detail like these corbels have? custom router bit?
I've seen some look-alike forstner bits that make the rosette cut but cna't remember where. Thanks for the pics and the dimensions.
For the rosettes, depending on the OA Dia, I would do one of two options ( ok, maybe three)
(1) Get the largest size spade bit and grind the profile on one wing, back off the other wing from interference, but still have the profile crudely ground.
(2) Get a shaft of mild steel and slot the end to recieve a loose knife , ground to shape ( held by a set screw , or tack welded).
(3) Hole saw a plywood template and using a template guide bushing set, and corebox bits, and or roundover plunge type bits, work around in concentric circles. This takes finesse, to keep the guide bushing under control
Of course, any combination of the three is also an option, as is applied premolded rosettes.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Grizzly has a mini-lathe (G8690) for $160 bucks that could turn these easily. You'll invest that much in a custom cutter, at least. This way you end up with a tool you can use again instead of a cutter you might never. I have the smaller lathe than this one, the G9247, but there is a nylon part in it which i've had to replace, so i'd recommend the next one up. The next price point is $225, which may not be competitive with getting a custom cutter. http://www.grizzly.com/products/G8690
That sounds like a great idea...now I really want this job--so I can get a band saw and a lathe!I like the prospect of more of these woodshop projects...I might just morph from a trim carp into a woodworker...little by little.Thanks again,Brian
Before I read the other posts, I was going to type Wow! Looks like fun!
But now, I don't have to say it, because the others did...
The fun will begin around the end of November...I'll post a few pics during the project.I could build a few extra brackets while I'm at it...brackets anyone...I'm taking orders. : )
Trying to justify a CNC router, too??
Now that would really be something. That train station has about 100 of those brackets...if I were to replace them all (rather than just two) I could definately buy a CNC. Or if I can just sell a few dozen on the internet...;o)I will keep the pattern, someday I might add a porch to my house and those brackets would be sweet.Cheers,Brian
Glad you got the job. I look forward to seeing how they were originally built.
Thanks.It should be interesting!
If you dont mind me asking, how much are you charging for the brackets vs install?
And please post pics of the work in progress.
I broke down the price as follows:Materials: $240 ea.
Fabrication: $950 ea.
Lift Charge $250 ea.
Install: $250 ea.Pattern Set Up Charge: $300CP Rail has their own lift and crew for the install...so I just got the shopwork. The total for my labor will come to $2200 (set up and fab. of two brackets). Pics will follow.
The bracket has landed...in my shop.I don't have time now to build the new ones 'til Jan. but will do the post mortem soon, and line up materials and tools, etc.Here are some pics of the removal done by Canadian Pacific yesterday, I was just there watching. It was good to see how they came out. It informed how I will build the new ones.The guy on the right looked like he was in a Passion Play as he carried the bracket to the truck. The old dry and rotten thing still weighed 100#'s.Check out the "snake bites." It won't take long for someone to identify the culprit.Anyone have a lead on a molding plane that does beading. That is the part that may be the most challenging.
Very cool. I am looking forward to seeing them disected.
Can't wait to see your progress - post lots o' pics!
Forrest
No progress today, but here is a close up of some of the detail (this is making my brain hurt ):
Wow!
Forrest
Seems to me that a router with a beading bit (hard to actually tell the profile needed from the pic) and a movable jig for a straight edge would solve this problem. "U" shaped jig to set down over and clamped to the piece, fence attached to the "U" and for each progressive one shim out the starter fence the appropriate amount. Go all the way around the piece with each bead then move the jig up or down. Or depending on how many you have to make lay the pieces out side by side and do one bead across all of them at the same time.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I used a variation on your beading jig (see photo a few posts back).Thanks for the advice.
Happy to see that it worked. Nice thread and job !!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The input from you and others certainly has made the project go smoother. It has been a BT group project of sorts.Now I'll attempt to attach a pic from a few days ago. It worked...I think I just fixed my computer.
Wow - your wife must be tall!
Forrest
Tall ceiling and my teenage daughter on a ladder provided that shot.
That job looks like too much fun. And you get paid too.
Hey,I really dig the stuff you do too.Bass
Thanks for that.
Here are a few more pics:
Makes me want to build the pergola my wife has been wanting for ten years.
How much fun you having?
I'm going to keep a copy of the template (and give one to the railroad).I may never build another bracket that big, but a scaled down version would be nice. The scrollwork at the ends would be nice for small corbels.
Give them the template and next guy won't have to figure out how to make.
Hang it on the wall as a reminder how great some jobs can be.
Still jealous, Dallas
I think quite a few BT folks could make them now from this thread...actually, I can't say I could have made them very well, without some of the advice I got here.If this project makes it into FHB (emailed a draft of an article to Taunton today), everybody who buys FHB could make a few of their own...but they are a bunch of work.If it is deemed a worthy article, it might make it into the June/July issue...I've had stuff I thought would make it into print before, but it didn't work out...so I'll have to wait and see.You are probably right and I should keep the template though.Thanks.
Way neat.
Wazzat sucker weigh?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
That sucker has about 40 b.f of White Oak in it at about 4.2 lbs. per b.f. = 168 lbs. theoretically. I really should weigh it and get a real value.This has been the single, most difficult, and cool woodworking project of my career. Glad you like it.
>This has been the single, most difficult, and cool woodworking project of my career.<
hope that doesn't mean that everything after this will be a let down. Long time ago I did some restoration work to a stairway in an house built in the 1850s. Still looking for a challenge like that one.
I have several interesting projects ahead, but I do imagine it will be a while before I get another one as challenging as this one.Thanks for the encouragement.
Correction on weight...the 40 b.f. was before waste removal...the brackets are more likely 140-150 lbs.
Here are two of the braces with beading:
Very nice!! From the photo it sure looks like it all came out in alignment and it sure looks good. Can't wait to see the final pics of them assembled and installed. Thanks for posting all the photos of the assembly steps.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks for the encouragement. The beading did have me worried, but it was one of the easier steps.Posting about this project has been fun and you are quite welcome.
Craftsman put out a table saw molding head with interchangeable cutters that cut such a bead. I have a couple heads that have such a profile, though i'm sure it's too small - about an inch across all three beads. Anyway, something to consider.
There's also a point-cutting round-over router bit (no bearing) that would work, if you can find the correct radius here:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_groov.html
I think the point cutting roundover and a jig will work. I will build up the entire bracket before adding the ornamental details so the molding head would only work if I inlay the beaded detail into a dado (make up molding stock ahead of time).Thanks for the input.This will be an interesting "measure twice" project.
<<the molding head would only work if I inlay the beaded detail into a dado>>Why do you say that? The molding head that i have is too small for the radius you need, but i've used it in similar situations, though it doesn't cut very cleanly cross-grain. (I was molding plinth blocks, but changed my mind and the detail rather than do all that sanding.)I've been mulling whether it would be a cleaner cut to rout the beads first or the chamfers. I'm leaning to beads first, but i'm not really certain which way tear-out would be least. Might be worth mocking that up for a trial run. I recently did some decorative blocks on a porch and was surprised that the order i first chose wasn't what worked the best.In-setting a beaded molding occurred to me, but i could sure see some issues with delicate miters opening up, exposed as they are.Gosh, that looks like a wonderful project! Did you figure out the rosette detail? Is Santa bringing a mini-lathe? <G>
How do you run all sides of the midpoint of the struts, of a mini timber truss, through a molding machine or table saw--especially the curved member?I will experiment with order of operations, etc. on scrap. Some of the practice will likely end up on display in the shop...some of it will provide heat for the shop <g>.On miters opening up, certainly a consideration. The problems are likely not huge due to how small the miters are and how short the molding runs are (4"). I would glue and 23" pin the miters to each other, but only pin each trim ring to the timber (no glue). Also if the trim ring is slightly oversized and floating on cab door gel balls perhaps?Fun, but not easy!
I'd just make a sacrificial TS sled to carry the strut. I think you can get a molding head to cut just one bead at a time, too, of the size you'll require, but i've never seen them except in advertisements nor have i ever used one. You can also get blank blades for the Craftsman molding head and grind your own single bead, if you're feeling pioneerish. The router appears from my desk <G> to me to be the cheapest route and the surest bet for a good and permanent job, but if you end up with a trim ring for whatever reason, consider one done cross-grain. The miters would then be joints between length-wise grain and you could glue the ring directly to the substrate because the grain orientation would be similar. Any construction that relies on tacks, glue, gel balls...lotsa parts there to go wrong if a simple molding-in-place of the substrate works. Unless you're just showin' off, LOL!Light snow here...wassail party later...brain-storming in the middle...what a fun day so far!PS: the curved strut...curved parts laminated on after the center section was molded?
Edited 12/15/2007 2:56 pm by splintergroupie
This project (and this thread) got put on hold for a while, but now I am making some headway. Finished the template today...start fabrication tomorrow.Got to put the new bandsaw rig to work today. Here are a few pics:
Looks like a super fun job - I like the patterns. Post lots of pix!
Forrest
Forrest,I made the straight cuts with an EZ Guide and curves on the Bandsaw, but where some of the members joined--I cut them apart with the Multimaster (the kerf is small enough that when tracing the template pieces, the pencil line will replace what the MM cut out).Here are a couple more pics:
This term "gnstock" brace was new to me. I noodled about on the Net and it seems sometimes to refer to what i know as a knee brace, and other times to a timber that is wider at one end than the other, flaring as he butt of a gunstock flares. There are also gunstock posts. I wasn't aware of the timber changing sectional dimension, so you must be using the term synonymously with "knee" brace?~Splintie, learning to read while undergoing FMM envy
I'm just making this stuff up as I go. <g>The brace with the flared ends could likely meet the "gunstock" definition. There may be a better term for it, but my limited research did not turn anything up.I also think the part of the brace that is let-in to the other member could be called a "haunch." There is a whole new vocab. with this stuff.
<<There is a whole new vocab. with this stuff.>>I'm happy to have you learn it and pass it on...in spite of the kibbitzers!
You gave me a good idea the other day...I need the template pieces for use individually and as a group (as I cut and shape each member and as I check how they go together as a whole)...so I am using "dry biscuits" to help with putting the pieces together and taking them apart again.Say, do you or any others out there know the name for the decorative end of the vertical and rake pieces (besides "snubbed ogee")?Here are a few more pics (All I did today was dimension lumber for the brackets...start glue-ups tomorrow):
I don't know a name for your "snub ogee" finial and i've just done about 20 minutes of searching. Looks like the field's wide open for whatever you want to name it. Yeah, those dry biscuits are quite the deal. I'm really happy with how easily all my trim went together without panicking about the glue going off.
I don't know what the radi of those beads are but I would give serious consideration to this:http://www.lrhent.com/intro.htmAnd maybe this insert set:http://www.lrhent.com/p74.htmYou could use it for a lot of other applications as well.
These are 1/2" beads (1/4" r.) Lager that those molding heads. I think I will try the router and jig approach first...if I mess it up, then plow it out and inlay a bead molding.
Dryfitted all the pieces of a bracket today. The original bracket had the top cord (rafter) and vertical member half-lap jointed and the other joints were let-in and just toenailed together (lotsa cut nails)--no mortises and tenons.I did a log cabin corner at the top joint (I used 5 layers, where the original had 3). I made the bracket look like the let-in joints of the original, but in the middle layers did some hidden interlocking (mortise and tenon wannabe) joints.I still have to add the chamfers, beading, and rosettes on the first bracket and the second bracket is running a few days behind the first (it should go faster though).
Here is the top joint:
Looking good, Basswood.
Can you share some dimesnions with us? Like the arc depth, length of the legs. etc. You know, the kind of stuff we could use to replicate in scale?
The "rafter beam" is 100" long, the vertical is 81", the curved brace is 67", and the short brace is 38".The longest and shortest members are true 4x4's, the vertical is a 4x5" and the curved brace is a 4x24" at the wide end and tapers down to a 4x4. The curve is neither circular nor eliptical, but some other curve (I tried to figure out the curve mathematically but ended up just tracing it).
I like your joint solutions. That first pic look like a medieval cross bow. What do they weigh?
It weighs about 150 pounds. The joints are nothing too fancy, but will be an improvement and should be strong.
The guys who took down the original bracket are not going to like you. snicker
Yep, she's about twice as heavy as the old one! <g>
So i'm a little confused. Are you laminating five layers of bracket-trusses together or are you making separate parts and joining them? I use the Elmers poly, too. Lots cheaper than Gorilla brand and just as good. Sufficient clamping time is absolutely critical though. Oak is a great wood to glue with it bec of its porosity. Damn shame you're going to have to paint them! :^(
I made separate parts and joined them together.I did test fit all the layers dry, for the entire assembly, before laminating.The confusion might be from the pics I posted showing some layers peeled away (to show the joinery), but before the glue-up.The Elmers poly worked fine (I used an entire 16 oz bottle yesterday). I used a bunch of clamps during the glue-up. The destructive testing I did, of the pieces cut out of the curved braces, showed the glue joints to be stronger than the oak.I'll post some more pics tomorrow or monday.Hope you are feeling better,Brian
<<The confusion might be from the pics I posted showing some layers peeled away>>Yes. I was not looking forward to the moans about how hard it was to fair the resultant monolith's edges! Those beads on the curved brace...are you just going to carve them in, or ...?Thanks for the encouragement. I'm making small but discernible progress after my fall,, though i'm not playing too much tug-o'-war with the dawg, lol.
The only detail that has to wait for the full assembly is the rosettes (all 4 rosettes are at
connecting points and span accross the joints). The beading and chamfering would be a pain to do on a complete bracket.Here is a pic of the "beading repeater" jig. I start with three 1/2" spacers between the fence and the clamp. It takes 4 passes to make each triple bead detail (on each of the 4 sides), after each pass I remove a spacer and slide the jig over.Someone other than me deserves credit for the beading repeater (I'll have to look back earlier in the thread).The second pic is of the glue joint testing. I tested a dozen joints (only one failed on the glue line). This pic is interesting to me in that the 2" glue line held, but the wood failed along the grain, fracturing about 5" long.The last pic here is evidence of my steady slide into woodworking (not much of a collection, but it is a start). I could have used about twice as many clamps for this project.Well...Prospero is not uploading pics...I try again later.
C'mon with the pics already would ya? LOL
I know, I hate that when they wont attach..used to happen to me a lot on Dial up..mostly at peak site times..like early evening.
Hey you can use that spacer repeated trick for lots of stuff..line holes for shelf pins, dadoes for CD dividers and such..anytime ya want some accuracy in a series...I screwed up a spacer thickness tho' one time making a Glockenspiel tone bar support..man that 1/32" adds up fast..(G) sucker was supposed to be 4' long finished, I think I added a whole inch or more by the time I got to the end..Measure twice, then measure again.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I think I know what Basswood's talking about (spacer repeater) but I've been waiting here all night with baited breath and still nothing. Had a awesome jack & diet coke (just a little) with the Easter Bunny though.
Edited 3/23/2008 9:09 am ET by john7g
I think my dog ate the bunny here..I've yet to find any candy or eggs, just gobs of fluffy fur and guts. Not a good sign.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
>dog ate the bunny here<
Great! Now I have to dream up a story to tell the kids.
Photo attachment attempt # 7Still not working.
Hmmm..I JUST now did to DDouds File storage thread..maybe reboot?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Good looking work.Will you do a shop applied finish?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,Thanks. I plan to used a decay inhibiting wood preservative, prime and paint myself.Flipping them will require help though...they are Heavy!Bass
I rebooted and tried the other computer...no dice.I offered to email them to John and have him post them...or you could maybe.They aren't photos worth too much bother, but I would like to get them posted.
I'm here and will try uploading. Let's see if mine works first...
Your pics, Master. I resized the "destructive sampling" one to 640x480 and it went from 1.5 meg to 21 kb...i just don't understand. If you need it larger, i can post the larger size.
View Image
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Edited 3/23/2008 2:51 pm by splintergroupie
Thanks,I just sent the beading repeater pic in large size. My photo downsizer must be acting up...the compressed files were mostly showing up as "file empty"...even when I tried attaching them to email.I am going to update Graphic Converter and My Mac OS and see if I can get my photo mgt. fixed (never had any problems before).
you doing this on purpose? It's killllling meeee.
John,I sent you an email. If you respond, I can email the pics to you and perhaps you could post them. I can't upload from either of my computers.Thanks,Bass
Finally! I've been waiting so long for this pic I've almost ran out of Jack Daniels on a dry Sunday.
I reframed the pic before resizing it to a managable KB. Hope i didn't cut out any requisite detail.
7g
Thanks for that, John. I was too busy starting a fire in my kitchen to post the one B sent me.
The burning gasket on a pressure cooker smells something awful.
No problemo.
What's for dinner? Burning gasket & green beans? I like butter on my beans btw. Glad you're up & around.
I was trying to make tea for a visitor, turned on the wrong burner and cremated the pressure cooker. Years ago, i had three fires one week in the kitchen from making popcorn and finally invested in an air popper instead of more insurance. This rubber smell is relatively mild compared to a whole soup pot of garbanzo beans i made into charcoal. Now THAT was a nasty smell!My pal also brought me enough food and chocolate! to eat for a week, so i'm safe until i'm able to shuffle faster. I have rice salad with ginger dressing coming up, yum. (She left me microwave instructions!)Butter on beans is a good choice, but i've taken to buying ranch dressing by the gallon at Costco. Thank heavens for the anonymity of the box stores so that i don't have to look forward to a buttermilk intervention. Don't tell my vegan friends, 'K?Leaving the thread in your photographic hands for now...
I think I have fixed my photo management issues with some software updates...thanks again for the help.
John,Thanks for your trouble...plenty of detail. Probably a let down--guess I owe you a fully stocked bar. ;o)I set the handscrew clamps 7" to the right of the center of the bead detail (at the location of the clamp I draw a line around the brace). After each pass I pull a spacer and slide the jig over, tight to the remaining spacers and repeat.This was my first attempt at beading and accross the grain no less. The jig was oversized to allow two extra 1x's to be clamped on to avoid tearout on the work piece. worked well.I hope to fix my photo mgt. prob and post the finished beaded braces tomorrow.Thanks again,Basswood
No sweat, took no time at all.
Rule around here, though, is that if you stock the bar you gotta help empty it.
Glad to see this thread back, basswood. Looking good.
Splinter, I'm not really sure that's a gunstock anything, in the traditional sense. To me, the usual use of "gunstock" is in connection with a post that is larger at the bottom, and is cut back where another member rests on it.
Here is a ghetto drawing of a gunstock post.
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Edited 3/12/2008 2:07 pm ET by jesse
The other images i saw on the web with "gunstock braces" were only done with M&T's, not even notched into the post like what you show with that post and how basswood's brace sits in that notch. (Sorry if i've butchered the terminology.)
Hmm...not finding any real gunstock braces on google image search. Anyways, not to mess up basswoods cool thread anymore, but here is a classic gunstock post.
View Image
Those are also the type of braces that were called "gunstock braces" in what i looked up. I suppose the term looked Wild & Westy in the advertising blurb. (I think we're pretty close to topic - i'll bet basswood isn't tearing his hair out too badly.)
Jesse,I did the stopped and lamb's tongue chamfers today...all day (you were tight about how long that would take). Now that I know what I'm doing, it goes pretty fast.The lamb' tongues on the short brace (least viable), I did first. Those ended up slightly larger than the rest (as I reworked the shape to get it right...the darn things kept getting larger and larger). I don't usually do that much hand chisel work...I'm beat.
Um...t'were me, i'd use the spindle sander with a tilt table (if you have it) for that step, or a hand-held drum sander chucked in a drill.http://grizzly.com/products/H2881Pnuematic sanders aka "bladder" sanders are incredibly useful for shaping. You can blow them up tight for distinct contours or do a lot of smoothing and shaping very fast and well at lower psi's.Other than the fact you're way too ambitious, i'm pretty impressed. ;^)
Splinti
Have you used one of those sanders? If so does it take a big compressor to run it, sorta like a DA sander?
I saw one at auction once and it didnt bring much money but I thought, oh hell, then I'd have to go buy a big azzed compressor!
Doug
The one i pictured is chucked in an electric drill; one end is the driven side and the other is a free-wheeling handle. I have some bench-mounted bladder sanders and also some for the lathe, but the "pneumatic" part refers just to the fact you blow up a bladder to whatever hardness you wish, not to how they are powered.
but the "pneumatic" part refers just to the fact you blow up a bladder to whatever hardness you wish, not to how they are powered.
Oh........the one I saw was air powered, I guess I haven't seen enough of them to know that they came in both varieties.
Doug
We called them 'rolling pins' in the guitar shops, the air DRIVEN ones DO use as much air as a DA or file board does. But man-0-man , are they fun.
Some can run off a flexshaft like a Fordom tool or such would have, but a bigger motor to drive them.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
The pneumatic drum sander looks handy. I did use a drum sander on a dremel to smooth out the chamfers after the router and chisel steps.I bet the original makers of the brackets could have chiseled those chamfers faster than I did, even though I cheated and used a router for most of the stock removal.It was cool learning how to chisel the lamb's tongues...I got pretty good at it by the time my hands started cramping up. ;o)
Brian
The corbels are looking good!
I had to go back to the begining to take a look at the original lambs tongue - yours looks very good/the same. You mentioned that you had some that sorta grew a little, hell nobody will see it from the ground, Its high work, not eye work!
They are looking good, HEAVY, but good!
Doug
Doug,Thanks for putting things in perspective. My trick for the lamb's tongue was to just make a semi-circle with the chamfer bit in the router, then I made the side that connects to the stopped chamfer with the chisel at a low angle, then I made the far side of the lambs tongue with a steep chisel angle.I visualized the thing as a cross between a snowshoe and a spoon (with a pointy end).A bracket might get put together tomorrow, but I have another commercial job I have to start (casework and trim for a jewelry store remodel) that has a strict schedule...so the shop work on the brackets will be evenings, etc.More as I get to it,Brian
Looks great.I like your laminated joinery...burly.Are you on track with your time estimates?
Thanks Jesse, The brackets will be beefy.The template/set up allowance was good, and I think the second bracket will take about what I thought the first one would take (if that makes sense)...so I'm over on time by 2 or 3 days plus buying a bandsaw and making feed tables, etc.Not a big money maker, but not bad either and it may turn into a FHB article (not sure what that would pay).Thanks for your input on the process.
"(not sure what that would pay)."A years subsciption to Breaktime. ;-)
Sign me up!...Hey...wait a minute! ;o)
I was just looking at all your lamb's tongues again...how did you sand them? Have you ever seen one of those mini drum sander attachments for a drill? The far end even has a handle, so you can solid and even pressure.
Those drum sanders would be the ticket. I just used a mini-drum sander on a Dremel.
Corser grit, slower speed, ya won't burnish the endgrain as much, wet it and follow with a pc of broken glass..it'll like finish primer mo' better. Scrape the burn away.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I think any timber that widens at the point of connection with another timber (to improve the strength of the joint) can be considered a "gunstock."
The original brackets are built up of 3 layers that total 3-3/4"I am using 5 layers of roughly 3/4" stock and flipping the grain on each layer for stability.I am fitting all the pieces of all 5 layers before the glue-up. The bandsaw work on the ends and some of the other details seemed best done before glue-up too.Here are a few more pics:
Do you have a flush trimming bit for your router to use with your pattern to clean up the bandsaw cuts? That would be the ticket! I made a masonite pattern for stair stringers and use a flush trimming bit on 'final approach' after they're sawn close to size. It's nice having identical pieces, without having to lay out each 2x12.
I do plan a router clean up...that is another reason I decided to do the shaping before I glue-up...can't use the router very well on 4" stock.The routed stair stringers from a pattern is an interesting idea.
I came up with the stair template bec i had a DeWalt jigsaw that refused to follow a line. After i routed eight stringers all alike, i bought a new Bosch circular saw to replace the antique Craftsman and took the DeWalt back to HD and traded for a Bosch handled JS. Sometimes it IS the tools and not the craftsperson, LOL! Still, now that i already have the template i'll use it for the rest of my deck stairs and rout them, too.
I have a jigsaw that I thought was like your Dewalt you returned...mine is a Fein and I cured it...with Bosch blades (made a big difference)--not that blades could save the Dewalt ;o)G'nite.
I tried a LOT of blades before discovering tool reviews online which panned the DW JS terribly. I stopped fighting with it, truth to tell, when the casting near the blade clamp broke. I'd already had it in once under warranty to the repair shop for seizing up. Now...my lifetime collection of various makers' blades all work very well in the Bosch, lol!
Here are a few pics of the "glueups" for the curved brace. I use bakers parchment paper to prevent gluing the work pieces to the benchtops. Handy stuff (similar to wax paper, but it stays flat and you don't have to pull it off of a roll or tear it to length).I did some gluing and clamping this morning and the cleanup routing this afternoon.
Don't you get splats of glue squeeze-out all over the back side clamping to the table like that?
I cut my waxed paper rolls in thirds on the bandsaw. On the under-side clamps, i'd fold the strips so they 'tented' the pipe so the waxed paper stayed put when i laid boards on top. I never tried parchment...i'm a low-end woodworker. ;^)
In this case the glue splats won't matter...all getting sanded, primed and painted.The parchment is about $10 for 200 cookie sheets worth and it can be used over and over.
What lkind of glue did you decide to use?
goriller...poly
I was hoping so...you get so much more open time with it. I didn't think you probably used it much in trim work, so i was going to suggest it.
I was warned not to use Titebond 3 in a loadbearing application since it can creep and fail.Resorcinol is not to be used below 70* or it can fail. With the woodstove heating the shop, I only got the temp up to 60* out there yesterday and many days I am doing good to hit 50*The poly glue is good down to 40* (TB3 is good to 45*) so I use it much more in the winter here (especially after you mentioned that GG does not freeze).The longer open time is good too.
You may want to try the PL brand of Liquid Poly, vs. GG. It doesn't foam as much, and seems to make a decent yellow glue type bond, solid and not as fuzzy if there are gaps.
Just a thought.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I'm using the Elmers poly glue for the first time (calling it GG as a generic name like you Southerners say "Gem clips" for paper clips). I'll find out how it sands tomorrow.Where do you buy liquid PL poly?I have not seen it, even at vendors that carry PL Premium in tubes.
Lowes, you got them up there?
It's in the glue aisle, not the caulk.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
There is a new Lowes in Rochester, MN about 45 min from here. I'll look for it there sometime.Tanks,Bass
It's the same name PL Premium as the caulk, just thinner viscosity. Awesome stuff and doesn't harden up in the bottle if ya store it upside down.
I was doing some cold outside repairs and snagged it to see how well it works , I mean I LOVE the thick stuff, but I hate cutting a new tube for a quick dab..and have the tube floating around leaking or getting the tip solid plugged. It was 40 or below a bit and it set up just fine and didn't gush out all over.
As far as the poly's go, I have used em all, and this is by far the best. I about quit using polys altogether cuz of the hassel and poor strength. It gap fills (weakly) and won't swell biscuts in slots. Messy, hard to squeeze outta the bottle when cold, needs dampness to kick...etc, etc...Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Bass
You should alternate your clamps, bar clamps tend to pull off center and will "pull" a cup in a board.
Those fancy K style, such as Bessy's Jorgensens, and I think Jet all pull parrallel but bars tend to pull to the side they are on, thus the alternating sides deal.
Otherwise keep the pics coming, I await the final results.
Doug
I have been checking for flatness with steel straight edges and clamping down on the assembly with oak 1x2's and 1x3's on edge and large C-clamps...seems to be keeping things flat.Here is a graphic that I am doing a variation of in my glue-ups:http://www.fine-woodworking-for-your-home.com/images/woodinclamps4.gif
Thanks for the update. Keep 'em coming! Looks like a really fun project.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."Looks like a really fun project
Thanks, I can't wait to actually put one together!
yes master ?... you called ?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
She's a dandy dog...loves hanging out in the shop...since she is not fond of safety glasses, I put her out before the power tools get fired up
I got help this morning, and carried the old bracket and a reproduction out in front of the shop for a photo.
You are equally as good a showman as craftsman, a rare combo. Congrats; it's fine woodworking, for sure. I hope you get published.
Thanks SG,The draft article and pics I emailed of the bracket work seem to be well received at FHB...though it might be as good a fit for FWW or even OHJ. It is not a perfect fit for any of these magazines...since it is for a Victorian commercial building.I guess since it helped to inspire Mike Smith to make brackets for Quarterdeck, it might be of interest to other builders.Thank you for your input along the way.The thought crossed my mind, that if this does end up in print, that it could lead to more work of similar nature for me...that would be very cool.Cheers,Brian
You'll be buying your own man-lift before you know it!
That would be handy, then I could finish re-siding the gable end of my house. ;o)
You'll be too busy doing the book tour.
I just start my first magazine article...and you have me on a book tour already.I burned a disk this evening, of the all the photos of the project. Tomorrow I'll send it in to Taunton.It will be interesting to see what comes of this.
I suppose it's all done digitally now; but hang on to your originals of anything. I had sent original material for an article i did for Knots ages ago on selling at art fairs, including a few crowd scenes (slides) i had borrowed from a fellow in Oregon. They were lost.I'd like to say i concur with Dovetail about keeping your own patterns.
The original images are all in my computer...burned a disk for Taunton, and I have copies of most of my photos in my iPod Touch, though I should also burn back up photo CD's for myself.There seems to be a growing chorus of "keep the template." Makes sense...you never know what could come of something like this.I'm off to install a fireplace mantel and a couple of countertops.Hope you are well and have a good day,Brian
Brian,
This has been a great project to follow.
Thanx for sharing.
View Image
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,It has been one of those projects that seemed worth documenting and interesting enough to share here on the board.Glad you liked going along for the ride.Cheers,Brian
The truck will be by to load the brackets tomorrow morning, so I went out to the shop to say farewell to the brackets and took a few final photos. The railroad guys are installing them this week sometime, I think.Last week a guy stopped by the shop and saw the brackets and said, "Watcha buildin'...a Viking ship?" That was funny!
Brian,They turned out really well. How do you plan on getting them up in the air?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
The station has good access for a lift. The Canadian Pacific is doing the install, but I will be there for advice and to take a few photos.Glad you like the outcome. I started the shopwork about two months ago. They got two solid weeks of work then another week or so between other jobs. The second bracket took half as long as the first and turned out better.Now that I know what is involved, a similar project (if that ever happens) would go pretty smoothly.
Brian,
I noticed a lot of brackets in the House issue as well. The rear of the red house has has a bracket against a mulled window.????????...
IMHO that issue had some good things on remoldeling tips but overall, pedestrian.
Hopefully they will do a house annual featuring:
1 Low end On a budget
1 Tract home Production type, affordable
1 Semi-custom Upgrades available
1 Custom Built to suite
1 High end Dream house
I think any house built by Mike Smith could be featured.
Walter(theslateman)'s timberframe home would have been a winner.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
If brackets are a resurgent trend, that could be good for my little business...now that I'm a "bracket guy."I like your idea for a houses issue that covers a nice range of price points and from simple, but well designed and well done all the way to high end.The bracket into the window mullion is odd...even if there is framing in there to support it.This bracket project landed me on the front page of the local paper today:http://www.winonadailynews.com/articles/2008/04/21/news/00lead.txt
A perfectionist in work boots whittling ornate patterns...oh, my!!
I think you have an admirer in the journalist, Amber Dulek. <g> Congrats yet again.
First we take Winona....then we take Berlin.
I guess I'd like to think the young lass was actually interested in the carpentry...but it did get a tad sappy with the mention of brown eyes and proud but humble stuff.The writer and photographer really did get into the process and just hung out in the shop...they wanted to get some action shots and see the work being done.I was surprised that they actually seemed interested in the history and woodworking, then amazed that it made the front page...slow news day I reckon.Thanks for the kind words and the harassment. ;o)BC
How did the paper learn about your efforts? Were you doing shameful self-promotion (good job!) or did someone turn them on to the project?
Some friends suggested I let the paper know about the project. I ran the notion of a local press story by FHB and the Canadian Pacific RR and they liked the idea...good press for everyone...so I pitched it to the local rag.As you gathered, the paper was enthusiastic about it. ;o)
Fortune AND fame...we'll be able to say we knew you when. I hope we don't have to call you Mr. Campbell then.
Aside...i was pulling old raised beds apart and notice there were some poles that weren't rotted in the least after five years, while the vast majority of them were bonfire-quality. I looked at the ends and realized they were DF peeler cores as compared to LP poles, part of a bunch of salvage i got from a guy's ranch when he re-fenced. Since we've chatted a bit about kilns and treating, it made me think of telling you. They looked untreated, so i was so surprised how resistant to decay the old-growth (probably) DF cores were.
DF, especially "old growth" heartwood would be rather decay resistant compared to LP.If my bracket project were in the NW, DF would be a good choice.
More resistant than LP. but i mean...NO decay. Considering the poles has already been used before i got them and sunk them in dirt for five year...pretty amazing.
It's easier to get white oak there than DF? I'm living wrong...
I've seen some 100 year old DF porch floors in great shape, though exposed to weather for a century. That is not ground contact, but it can last a long time in the elements.Your poles must be full of decay-resistant resins.I get beautiful, clear, S3S, 13/16, sanded, white oak for $2.20/ bd.ft. with free delivery to my shop. DF would be about 3x's the cost here.
The second and final bracket was installed today by the RR guys. The project is now complete!I did get an email from the Canadian Pacific RR facilities guy...he said thanks and look forward to working with you again in the future. I wonder what, if anything, he has in mind.Here is the final photo:
Very Nice!! Congratulations on a fine job. New line for your business card. "Custom Crafted Corbels"
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Glad you came along on this adventure.I think I sorta gave you credit for the beading jig when I wrote the article for FHB (no mention of "dovetail," just a helpful BTer).Thanks.
Thanks. Better left at just a helpful bt'r. Lots of people helped. Covers everyone that way.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Good point.That was what I was after. Just wanted to acknowledge that others had filled in the considerable gaps in my knowledge on this project. Took the opportunity to let folks know BT is a good resource.Ciao,Bass
Brian,
I think you may have a lifeong opportunity with CP as a consultant for maintenace/restoratoion of their depots. A lot of small towns here in GA are making their train depots a 'Go to' destination.
"This thread may have reached "ad nausieum" "
No way. Front page? Featured in BT?
You (hopefully) are on your way to greater accolades. The locals (and not so locals) will keep your phone ringing.
I have always admired your work. I do things a little different but you have an "A" game.
Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
Edited 4/23/2008 8:52 pm ET by stevent1
Chuck,Thanks for the kind words.I've gained more than a few tips from your posts and enjoy seeing your work as well.I noticed in the p.lam ripping thread that we do have different ways to get the same thing done. Your approach looks better for a shop setting and mine is handy for the jobsite.BT is a great place to exchange ideas.Cheers,Brian
Brian,
Likewise.
Shared knowledge is priceless.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Well, i can't speak for the others, but i'm not near nauseumed and i'd like to see some more corbels when you get a chance to post 'em. I have a hunch you aren't done with that building yet, though. That curved gable-end trim looks like it'd make a good thread, eh?
Haven't had enough yet, aye...well, I can oblige...heh, heh, heh. ;o)You are right that the train station in Winona needs some more help. I just took care of the major structural issues, but there are plenty of cosmetic trim details that are due some TLC.More corbel and bracket photos will follow in another thread.Nite Nite,Brian
So how did they secure the brackets to the building? And how are the originals held in place?
Originals were attached to the brick/stone masonry with 2 lags one high and one low, in shallow mortices covered by 2x2" plugs.I made my top bolt mortise 2x6" so they could add an extra lag, because the top lags were pulling out of the wall on the originals.No through bolting, but the masonry seems to hold well on all the other brackets.
Great thread, thanks for sharing!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Yur welcome. What a long, strange trip it's been. :o)
Call me stupid but what's the CANADIAN Pacific railroas doing in Minnesota?
CP Invaded from the North (no kidding!). Similar to CN . Either developed US subsidiaries or bought up short lines to connect to key locations.
CP has been expanding into the US for a while, but NAFTA gave them a boost in that direction and the relative strength of the Canadian dollar made the DM&E buy into a bargin last year.
THink they'll invade Kansas as well? We need more railroads here :o)
Thought Kansas invaded Mexico.
Actually Kansas City Southern has invaded Mexico. Bought up some Mexican railroads to provide shippers from the Far East an alternative to going through the Port of Los Angeles.
They only thing Kansas ever invaded was Oklahoma and some areas of State Line Road in Kansas City that our actually all in Kansas.
There was a new Chik Fil A that the restaurant was in Missouri but the bushes out front were in Kansas so they had to go before the zoning board and have their landscaping approved.
Canadian Pacific take over of railroads, seems good to me. They have it going on. Here they improve track quality and operation safety over the previous management.Many RR's have equipment that is in bad shape, CP runs a tighter ship.
Just got my copy of Fine Homebuilding. Now we'll have to call you Mr. Campbell. Nice work Brian, hope it brings more fun projects.
Thanks,The builder, I just did the crown on the bullnose corners for, showed the Master Carpenter article to the homeowner, that seems to have provided some extra credibility and might have had something to do with me getting the go ahead for the radiused plaster crown--did that make sense? Anyway, I imagine that more interesting jobs lie ahead.Brian
>did that make sense? <
Sure did. Lesssee.. you claimed you weren't a Master Carpenter, FHB put your article in that place, builder shows said article to HO, HO knows your a Master Caprenter. Right?
I guess so.Certainly was not a master, by my definition, at building those brackets. I think of a master as one who has "done this before--expertly"...not someone figuring it out as they go (and with lots of help).I had enough experience and tools (several purchased just for this job) to pull it off. In a dozen subtle ways, the second bracket I built was better than the first (the lambs tongues especially). In the local paper story about the train station project, the reporter said I was proud of the brackets, but humbled by the craftmanship of the original (or something to that effect).If I get to build another set of brackets, I think I could master it. :o)Ironically, the job referred to in the post above (radiused plaster crown on bullnose corners) is also being considered for another Master Carpenter article.I think it ironic, because I have never done this before either (though I am doing 6 corners and had it down by the third corner).Challenges motivate me, so I get in over my head, at times. These things stretch me and add to the skill set.
Very Nice!
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,I was amazed to get a nearly full-page ad, on the front page, for free. That does not happen very often.Have a good day,Brian
Here's another pic of the twins:
And you the proud papa! I'm totally inspired now...a Hardieplank faux-slate roof held up with a smaller version of your classy corbels, all to store my garden tools. <G>You must be relieved, too. I can't imagine there weren't some hairy moments moving the bouncing baby boys around. Any news on the article?
I think it will be in the June/July issue #196 in the "Master Carpenter" column. That is the plan, anyway.I really did tell them that I am not a "master" at the bracket thing and had never done anything like it before. It was suggested that if I could figure it out, then the label probably fit. I also had to mention that I didn't just figure it out...I had plenty of help from BT'ers.I did manage to get one credit for BT into the article (on the beading jig).And yes, those boys were a chore to handle to get all sides primed and painted.
I guess i'll have to buy that issue. Agreeing on your level of expertise may be the one thing on which i'd agree with the editors. If they had more like that and less about vinyl i'd have to start subscribing again.
Perhaps an advantage of being a bracket building newbie would be that I had to think through each step. Hopefully that translates into a useful "how to" article.If I did this kind of thing in my sleep, I might not be able to explain it.One funny side-effect of the project is that I now notice brackets and corbels all over the place (sorta like buying a certain car model and then seeing them everywhere).I'll have to take some photos of local brackets and start another thread.In the current Houses issue of FHB, half of the houses featured have brackets. Are brackets making a resurgence or am I just noticing them?
You mentioned earlier in the thread the idea of giving a pattern over to the RR. My thought is hang on to it. Most RR stations were copied in various locals across the country. I am thinking you may have developed a little niche market for yourself in this work. I am willing to bet those brackets support roofs and adorn other old stations across the country.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
More wise advice. Thanks.Small corbels seem like childs play now. :o)
View Image
Aw gurlllll, you look like a butterfly just come out the cocoon!
Forrest - wishin' I had wings
LOLI thought it made an interesting photo, but you found a twist on it I missed. :o)Funny!
Wow! That is first class work. Thanks so much for keeping us all up to date on the progress.
M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Hey, this has been fun to share and helpful to me as well--glad to do it.Thanks for the kind words.G'niteBrian
The CP Rail guys got one bracket installed this morning. I took one photo of that work. I also got a few photos of some of the other brackets and details that embellish the station.The post close up shows a stopped chamfer with a lambs tongue and a birds' mouth chamfer detail.
Brian,
Wouldn't we all like to have that type of equipment at bay. I visualized scaffolding with a yard arm.
Pic 3 is a great detail.
BTW: I have not gotten any 'message notification' from Prospero on your and other threads. Must be a Taunton/Prospero thing.
On the "Houses" future issues, I failed to mention that Green building is/should be a given.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
The scissors lift worked well for that bracket, but the access for the other is complicated by a wheelchair ramp and rail. so today, they are using a boom lift on the other side of the building.This thread may have reached "ad nausieum"...but I'll see if I can get a few shots of that this morning.On the houses issue, I agree with "going green" and also think that timber frame in Walters' thread would be great, as would any of the Smith houses. Those guys are class acts.Later,Brian
Very nice work! Congrats.Hope you get some more cool stuff out of this. M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I hope to get more interesting projects too. I've been thinking that having some good press right now might help "recession-proof" my business. It certainly can't hurt, anyway.This project and thread have about run their course, but I think I will go take some photos of other cool brackets around here and start another thread.Have a good day,Bass
Cool...what species of wood is that?I would totally be biased towards a solid timber, but I can definitely see the advantages of a laminated bracket, especially for ease of fabrication.I think BT should take up a collection for a proper mallet. :-D
White Oak (the originals were White Pine but todays clear white pine is more than twice the money and is both weaker and more prone to decay).The oak I am using is from a local mill and should be stronger, though heavier.Solid timber would be cool, tough more prone to check, twist, etc. I took a cue from the orginal bracket which was laminated. The "post" and "top chord" members were just lap jointed on the original...my version uses a log cabin corner, alternating the five layers. That is one example of an advantage of the laminated approach.I'll post some pics of how I used the laminations for some interesting hybrid joinery when I get to the assembly.I would like to aquire a few mallets...I do own a variety of hammers, but no mallets.
Looks like fun.
Ohhh..I too cringe when a I see a hammer hitting a good chisel. Get a or make a good beefy mallet, it works better, the force is sustained longer for better chiseling, than a steel hammer can do. Has to do with mass, not weight.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
It is a fun gig.You know I'm a trim carpenter who has strayed into the shop...all my clubs fit nicely in a toolbelt. I have been getting more into woodworking, but my tool collection has some deficiencies.
Jesse,I've been working on building up the curves pieces today and they are another reason for the built up timbers...you would need a 4x24" beam to cut those out of...I am gluing up 2 of the 4x24's out of five layers that are 4 pieces each.Having a single timber would have advantages over dinking around with so many pieces though.More later,Bass
Very nice work! Somewhere around here I think I have a photograph of myself standing in front of that train depot, waiting to catch the train to Chicago for my senior class trip in the spring of 1974. :)
Stuart,Nice story. That would be a nice photo to see.Glad you like the work, it has been a good and stretching experience.Regards,Brian